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If one's life changes drastically (more or less independent of one's own will and conscious wishes) exactly at the beginning at the Saturn return, is one signaled that the choices that have been made were altogether wrong and one has been living without acknowledging it? Should one expect the same during the whole transit or is anything likely to change after the need for some correction becomes obvious and is acted upon? Why don't the areas affected by the return limit to the house placement of natal Saturn?
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 9:35 AMI am sorry if your Saturn return is hitting you so hard. I too went through mine this past year, and it was by far the most difficult year of my life, especially after the aspect perfected. I struggled with depression from it, and didn't tell others, but I thought of taking my life on numerous occasions (I had my death planned and figured out how much money I would need to leave for my family to cremate me).
It doesn't always stick to the house placement because other planets are involved that touch Saturn. In my case, Saturn touches the Moon, Mercury and Mars, in both my career (10th), and especially my romantic life (5th). For me, both areas of my life were challenged and changed, it seemed by force, but a lot of it was due to choices I made. Saturn sits in my 3rd, and I had my usual issues with being unable to communicate effectively with others, but that wasn't the whole picture.
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 9:44 AMAlso, Saturn returns are affected by how Saturn transits. Mine went retro three times back on to my natal Saturn, and the third time was the worst of the three, as my professional astrologer guru predicted. I would check how many times Saturn hits yours to see if you only have to deal with it once or more than once. The first time around was a breeze for me, and I didn't even notice it. I naively thought that I was prepared for it all and that it would be easy. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 11:50 AMThanks for your feedback. The return is in the 2nd, but what seems to be happening goes far beyond the implications of that house. My natal Saturn is conjunct Jupiter , sextile 4th house Uranus and square 5th house Neptune. There was also an opposition from transiting Uranus in the 8th involved there and a square from Pluto in the 5th. Enough to make things more complicated? It does make some sense if interpreted in this context, but it brought about problems that I would have normally related to or expected from Pluto squares to personal planets, Uranus oppositions to the same ot transiting totally different houses. If it might be merely the beginning, I guess I'll just have to figure what other bad drastic unsought for changes could happen .. I'm partly kidding, but I cannot help worring about it. -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:49 AMAshley - no need to worry needlessly, though. I know there is a lot of doom and gloom in association with Saturn returns, but they aren't horrible for everyone. You at least will learn a lot about yourself, that's pretty much a guarantee. I may regret a lot of things that happened during mine, but it's a year I'll always remember and hopefully I won't repeat the same mistakes later.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:30 PMTeresa,
How can you find out how many times saturn will hit? My saturn is coming up soon! Mine too is in the 3rd house, is it a generational thing? I don't know if I have ever looked at your chart....
Sarah -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:39 PMSarah,
I highly recommend to any astrologer that they find an online ephemeris that is accurate. Astro.com has some available, as does this website: www.khaldea.com/kldaephem/...09gmt.shtml
An ephemeris has columns that list each of the planets individually and the signs they are transiting on the day listed on the left hand column by row.
Ephemerides only show each day vs the hr that the planet changes signs or perfects a degree to one of your planets, so you might have to try and generate charts to pinpoint a time in your area. There is software out there that does it for you, but they usually cost.
Basically, you just look at your chart to see where Saturn is by degree and sign, then look up the transits on the ephemeris to see how Saturn moves, and whether it will go retrograde (it will show an "R" on the ephemeris when it does).
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:56 PMAnd Sarah - I don't take Saturn to be as generational as the other outer planets. It is personal to me anyway. Saturn will effect you much differently than me because it doesn't touch your Moon. It does square your Sun though, which is likely to be challenging, especially in 11th house matters, which tend to be personal relationships. It can also challenge your ambitions, esp. anything you began ~7 yrs ago. It can also make your vitality weak (the Sun is your life force and over all health and energy), or produce health issues, esp. dealing with the heart. I also had the square to Mercury, and this can show a severing of friendships, which I also had happen with people I cared about a lot, but it was probably for the best. Saturn is good at forcing you to clearing out things and setting you back on track when you make a wrong turn somewhere.
Saturn conjunct Jupiter can lighten things up considerably if you don't let Saturn win over with its pessimistic tendencies. Saturn in aspect to Jupiter does usually indicate a change in residence or job, and financial situation, as was discussed in another Saturn transit post the other day.
You are lucky it doesn't touch that Neptune in the 5th when it perfects, though the it will while it transits through. It may test your grip on reality because of this, esp. in regards to romance - whether or not something is real or an illusion. It could be a time of deception, in which you deceive someone or someone deceives you. You are more likely to live in a Neptune fog, so it will be difficult to make heads or tails of things until the transit ends. Saturn square Neptune can also make you place too much importance on what you see outwardly rather than delving deeper. I know people with this aspect natally and they can judge people solely on appearances, and be completely wrong about the person and not give them a chance. -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:59 PMThe square to Neptune is occuring now for you, so you should already feel it. Though, Saturn does go retro again next yr back into Virgo, so you'll get it one more time. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:27 AMI know it's occuring now... I also have Saturn square Neptune natally. I generally experience it as a tendency to worry about more or less realitic problems and as a struggle between the interest in potential realities and the need for discipline and grounding. Don't worry, I'm the last person in the world who could focus only on surface things and not go deeper. -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:46 AMAshley - I was referring to Sarah's Saturn-Neptune square transit. She doesn't have it natally. Like me, she's lucky enough to have barely missed that one! -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 5:40 AMOh, lucky indeed! (though I've seen things that are worse than a saturn-neptune square :)
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:21 AMYeap, but Saturn conjunct Jupiter also means that what should be natural optimism, luck and tendency towards expansion is a bit .. altered - subject to the structures, limitations and fear, doesn't it? I do indeed hope Jupiter could lighten things up a bit, but it's also covered by Saturn by transit and squared by Pluto, so one can never know.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:14 PM"The first time around was a breeze for me, and I didn't even notice it. I naively thought that I was prepared for it all and that it would be easy."
Currently experiencing Saturn square Sun, Neptune, Mercury and going into Venus. It has been a breeze this time around, and I had been wondering-I didn't think I had solid enough foundations for Saturn not to affect me. And now I'm err, pretty scared, though curious to see how it will change me...
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 10:38 AMi have not yet reached the time of my life when saturn returns to natal position. it apppears though i have crossed all sorts of squares lately with saturn/ mars/ neptune/ uranus involved. nevertheless, i cannot establish the connection between my life situation and these transits in a manner, which is helpful or positive.
i had a friend who died recently (12 days younger than me), so quite young. i realised inside of myself the universe wasn't really trying to signal anything to her by taking her out of life- that is what i believe and i gave some serious thought to the issue. so i stopped waiting for signals from the sky or the world and ever since try to ask myself who am i, am i happy, what do i want, who did i know in my life, what do i feel, how do i perceive the world, what is dramatic or what do i fear most. things can be overwhelming, but in the end, each one has their own inner speed. you can only live your life according to what you really understand and contain.
(i am not talking from the top of the tower: i am unemployed for too long already, everyone who can support me financially is also unemployed- economical crisis-, don't know where to go with my profession or my life, so forth, but i am trying to hang on and get some grasp of things. questions/ confusion/ "problems" will not disappear immediately though- i am looking for "it" for one year and a half and don't really expect "clarification" in the near future/ coming years. it all seems to be an ongoing process of definition.)
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:32 AMwww.aquarianage.org/west/pla...keby.html
Glad this is still posted .well written sites the sources and authors -enjoy! -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 11:14 AMMost people get two Saturn returns in their lifetime, three if they live into their late 80s, early 90s. The returns occur approximately at ages 27-29, and 58-60. One thing I would encourage anyone having a Saturn return to do: Keep a journal of the things going on, the people you meet, the stuff you begin. Because that will help you understand the theme of your Saturn return now, and even more so when you experience your 2nd return in your late 50s. To give a highly simplistic example: If you have a child at your first Saturn return, you'll probably have a grandchild at your 2nd return. But things are usually not as easy to see as that.
Saturn returns mark times of maturity. Maturing is what it's about--the events and circumstances of it are tied to that. In my first Saturn return, I moved from Memphis, Tenn. to Boston, Mass. and began studying astrology. At the time, though, it seemed most important that I left the place of my birth, and finally started acting like an adult. Moves to new places, new jobs, new relationships--having a child, too, are all part of the maturing process, and frequently occur at the Saturn return.
At my second Saturn return, I was downsized from a job, and got the opportunity to do astrology full-time. So the 28-30 years between the returns helped me hone my interest. And I finally obtained the time and freedom to pursue what I love.
Above all, Saturn rules time. The Saturn return is easier if you adopt two attitudes: (1) do not get attached to an outcome, because you may well miss something far better; and (2) do not get attached to timing. Saturn means that things happen in the Universe's time, not yours. You may be resentful of that in your late 20s, but life's magic only seems to happen when you don't rush things, or expect stuff to happen immediately. That may be the most important lesson of any Saturn return.
Michele -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 7:34 PMI like that message Michele- that saturn is a life times work. When Saturn first showed its head at my return 7 years ago, I thought it was something to be immediatley resolved, but I soon(or later) realized that what Saturn shows you is a life times work/commitment and not something that can be quickly remediated...the maturation process-Saturn.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 5:49 AMI moved away from my natal country right before the saturn return, I don't know if it has anything to do with it (this was a very good opportunity, nothing negative attached to it, but it did trigger various other things). Saturn didn't bring me any child (I would have not felt 'mature enough' for that, anyway), but it brought me a divorce. Of course my first impluse when confronted with this possibility was to try to avoid it, to renegociate the relationship, etc., but eventually I felt liberated and relieved. I know this is what had to happen and that it's the best way for everyone involved. The problem is it had to be 'the harsh hand of saturn' to make me move on ... I couldn't do it before.
Michelle, according to what you say, should I expect another divorce at the second return? :) Is it generally the same 'motif'? -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for? - to Ashley
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 7:50 AMYour 1st Saturn return had to do with expanding your horizons (moving to a new country), with confronting what your real needs are in a relationship, and the freedom you felt when you left the relationship. Your 2nd Saturn return could mean, again, expanding horizons--a move somewhere, or finally deciding what it is you need from a relationship, or, perhaps that you don't need one. Don't confuse the event itself with the theme--though when you're going through it, it's hard to see otherwise. Also--note carefully what happens at the 7 year intervals of the Saturn/Saturn cycle, because the themes crop up then too, though may not require any action or decision on your part.
What leads us to the happiest moments always seems to involve difficulties and challenges. The best steel still has to go through the fire.
Michele -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for? - to Ashley
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:22 PMIt's strange, you know, 7 years ago I started the relationship that has just ended.. Yes, all this has made me see clearly (even though by force :) what I actually need. Saturn returns in the 2nd, so there are also some financial changes (not positive, but understanable in this context) and some values and priorities reassesment, but let's hope it's for the better. I've heard divorce is generally related to 7th house transits. It must have been an exception, cause now in my my 7th there's neptune lying there for some time and jupiter has just entered the show , which is pretty ironic for a situation like mine.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 7:44 PMMy Saturn return time heralded my embarking on motherhood ~ a drastic life change that was anything but all bad. LOL. In a fashion, that also prepared me as I slid into looking after my mother when my father died, which was before my son was graduated from high school. Being an only child, and having a Cancer Venus, this on some level is a predictable and natural transition. My Venus semi-squares my natal 3H Scorpio Saturn. It is not all bad, and it is not all good, but at the end of the day, having things be harmonious on the family front in my later years seems great instead. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:08 AMI think it's important to realize that the Saturn return is a major milestone in a total Saturnian cycle. What happens at your Saturn return will be accented 7 years out, when Saturn squares natal Saturn; then 14 years out, when Saturn opposes natal Saturn; then 21 years out, when Saturn makes another square to natal Saturn.
This is why the years of 7 ("the age of reason," in the Catholic Church); 14 (adolescence); 21 ("legal") are important because they mark times when transiting Saturn is making an aspect to your natal Saturn.
After the first Saturn return, the years of (approximately) 37, 44, and 51 have increased importance, again relating to your initial Saturn return and echoes of that occurrence. At age 44, that usually coincides with the Uranian opposition to your natal Uranus. At 51, you have the mysterious septile aspect being made from your progressed Sun to your natal Sun. So those too color the Saturnian cycle.
One of the best books on the Saturnian cycle is still Grant Lewi's Astrology for the Millions. It was one of the first astrology books I ever read, and I still consult it. He had a very good understanding of the whole cycle.
Michele -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 11:47 AMI hadn't really looked into the aspects of Saturn that way in my own natal chart. Looking at the time of Transiting Saturn's opposition to my natal Saturn, it was an extremely tough time, I was going through counselling at the time due to some family issues. The approaching square at age 22 although tough was a good time, I completed my college thesis which was a huge accomplishment for me. It so happened that Jupiter was also conjunct Saturn at this time, so this may have helped life the mood. My Saturn return 2 years ago marked the day I was hired for my current job, the longest and most satisfying (by far) position I have had so far. Prior to this I had a run of Saturn transiting several planets which I think in a way helped pave the way for, and ease the pressure of my return when it came.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:24 PMMy girlfriend's Saturn Return is happenin' and I've definitely noticed a lot of changes taking place for her. I'd like to get her opinion on how marked they feel to her, too, but she moved and is living on her own for the first time (sans roommates), got promoted at work and is taking steps to get her own business underway, she met her father for the first time since she was a little kid, and she had some pretty major relationship/sexual orientation shifts. It's an interesting time, seems like. At the same time, though, I can see the 'letting the universe do things at its own pace' concept at work, too, because she's having to wait a lot of things out. Certain areas, for her, are a bit restricted and can't be pushed, but it seems like a lot of major factors in her life are aligning and letting new developments take place and she's putting in the work to grow towards some really exciting outcomes. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 5:56 AMWell, I guess when all that happens at one's saturn return is positive (no loss involved), it means few mistakes have been made during 'youth'. Because this is the feeling I get, that I'm being asked to account for everything I have done and to accept the consequeces of any mistake I happened to make and I preferred to ignore or to 'polish' until now. Saturn seems to accept only 'bareness'.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 6:23 AMSaturn in 7th house. Married, got into an affair, divorced, moved out of matrimonial home, living with new man, happy, all except for money issues all within a spate of three years. Moon in Capricorn helped me work through the nasty bits. There were a lot of emotional issues I had to contend with.
And that's when Saturn moved into the 8th house which affects partners' money (I've done too many charts and readings that show that I can't avoid the reality that I will be the one bringing in more cash for both me and my new man's livelihoods for a while until the economy swings around) This starts my cycle of debts to taxman, dad for university fees as divorce monies are being sorted out. For a person who's madly independent (Uranus on zenith with Mars in Scorpio), having to bring home the bacon for someone else even if I do love him to death doesn't appeal to me. Not that he's being completely useless, he's helping me with my work for nothing as long as I pay rent and he's doing his fair share of getting in touch with people who used to give him business, but I haven't seen the fruit of his labour as yet, as in it's all futile. He's not a go-getter I still think; he's a back end person best at doing research.
So here I am assuming my Scorpio Martian go-getting role again. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:24 PMwhen I was 28 a series of events began to occur over the next few years, I left a decent relationship because I didnt feel like I knew who I was, I moved a couple of times, got married, lost a pregnancy, got divorced, moved again, had my first stroke (mini ~ TIA), got married another time, went through another divorce a couple years later, moved again. In 2006, stroke (CVA), and the long journey of again rebuilding a life began.
Thus a delicate choreography is an ongoing theme.
10 years later and I'm not the same person who I was then, though parts of me may appear to be, the underlying core has been altered significantly, where there is no going back.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:41 PMThose years also brought up a lot moments of creativity that would get set aside only reappear alongside the other happenings.
I notice with challenges also comes the potential for beauty.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:25 PMWell, it might be a role tha really suits you. You don't have capricorn moon and scorpio mars for nothing .. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:54 AMLove to you Ashley :-) I have to admit the past few years during the Saturn return and Neptune in my first house did make me a little soft on the go-getting side. But with Uranus moving forward by end of this year would also see that I kick ass. I have been constantly reminded to day that I'm a Uranian girl too, with Uranus on my zenith and Aquarius rising! -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:58 AMLove to me from you welcome ;). Make the best of your Uranus on the zenith, it's something worth having!
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 12:57 PMSo, just to clarify, if there is a loss of something during the Saturn Return, does that necessarily mean it was wrong for you? Or could Saturn just be testing your perseverance?
I've barely started my Saturn Return (I'm 28 and my natal Saturn is around 8 degrees in Libra) and I lost my job a few months ago (Pluto was transiting conjunct my MC at the time - I'm sure that was part of it). Since then, I haven't been able to break back into my field. I guess I could interpret this as my career being the wrong one for me, but with so many people losing their jobs during Pluto's transit through Capricorn, I just don't know if I should take it personally. I wish I knew for sure. I don't want to keep putting energy into something that isn't meant to be. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:35 PMThis is how I see things right now ... that Saturn return requires/forces you to justify and take responsiblity for your choices and for all that you've done with your life until his age. Since there's some loss, my guess is that at some point there's been a wrong choice or a some sort of mistake in that specific area, otherwise things would naturally go on without any problems. The point is not to put the blame on external factors or on somebody else, but to understand what was wrong, learn the lessons and move on keeping them in mind.
Do you feel it's the right field for you? is it what you do best, what activates your potential, so to speak? (yes, pluto on MC certainly has to do with your loss, but this might only emphasize what the saturn return is signaling). -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 10:17 AMAshley - thanks for your thoughts. My field wasn't necessarily the best for me, but it did allow me to be responsible and pay the bills (which I thought Saturn would have liked). Oh well, at least it's better to get out now than when I'm 60. Back to square one. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:47 PMCynthia--I'm at square one also with Saturn um, squaring everything (:P) and having almost completed a 2nd house transit. I have ways to get jobs (supposedly-in this economy you can never be sure) that would bring a more solid footing and would be a reflection of my degree, but it just feels impossible to apply for them. Instead I stick to cashiering and pet sitting so far...I'm just waiting, I guess. And what Michele said about the squares--When Saturn was conjunct my Sun, I began college and majored in journalism. And now, I would prefer to be a creative writer and journalism seems impossible, and so do jobs connected to my degree (like marketing, advertising). It's like Saturn is beginning the process of "correcting" my path. It's on it's way to my 3rd house Saturn return, so that makes sense. -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 9:45 PMI recently had transiting Saturn squaring my sun, so I can relate. I had no energy to push any of my objectives forward--I walked around feeling like an old man was sitting on my chest, but waiting it out did help. I think a lot of people just starting out in their careers right now are feeling restricted. Maybe transiting Saturn squaring the generational Neptune has been crushing/refining our dreams.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 3:01 AMDon't underestimate Saturn (he's not one of my favourite, but I'm just discovering him and I assure you he has a charming part as well ;) - Saturn wants you to make the best of your (professional) qualities and be loyal to your calling, not only to pay the bills ... he's not that rudimentary. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 3:06 AM"Saturn wants you to make the best of your (professional) qualities and be loyal to your calling, not only to pay the bills ... he's not that rudimentary."
Saturn is actually one of my faves. i literally wouldn't get out of my bed were it not for Saturn. I've a grand air trine and a taurus venus trine neptune. Nothing I like more than to stay in bed whislt thinking and talking about stuff to friends/lovers/family.
Saturn squares my moon and I think it works well for me. Undoubtedly it has a much darker side, particularly I would imagine in relation to 'control through food'. For me I think it often works well though. Certainly makes me more productive. I think we all need a strong Saturn to keep us real! -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 12:13 PMI've ignored him until now and even mocked at 'his ways'. It seems now he's got something to pay back. I don't have major aspects from saturn to personal planets, but a part of me is in the 10th house (or at least there's where it should be), so I'm starting to appreciate saturn as well. His lessons seem plain, but wise - if you want something, work for it; if you did something, take responsibility for it, etc. Now how could that be wrong? :-) . He teaches things about strength and depth that are different from those I used to know, but he seems to be right.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 2:42 PM<Yawn> -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 3:47 PMAmiable,
Is that the sense of boredom that comes after Saturn has crossed a bunch of your planets in quick succession and now you just want to forget about it? Or have you just heard it all before? -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 4:08 PMWell, Saturn really hasn't been doing that for me, so it is more like I have certainly heard much of this before ~ over and over and over and over again. And I don't mean similar stories with the same themes ~ I mean the same stories over and over and over. Same people, same stories over and over and over. This tribe is boring me stiff. Like, we have heard about the boyfriend and the mother and the uncle and the girlfriend until who cares anymore? Any new news is sort of pfft. Or more of the same. Kind of makes me think that one of the reasons Saturn is often unpopular is because of the monotony. And the planet sure can be that. Even with an Uranus opposition he is boring to the point of putting me totally to sleep. The only people really interested in it are those who seem completely self-absorbed, and only people interested in anyone else are so in so far as whatever is said might apply to them. This whole tribe has become totally boring to me. The topics are either spinning wheels or all about the re-runs of dramas I have been hearing about for over a year. Even relatively new people are running their stories into the ground. It used to be that there was at least some depth-plumbing, but now it is like all about comparative astronomy or someone's personal trauma drama. Small wonder this place has fewer posts than it ever did before. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Tue, October 27, 2009 - 9:38 PMThere are a few things here and there in this thread that are interesting.
like this one:
"Of course my first impluse when confronted with this possibility was to try to avoid it, to renegociate the relationship, etc., but eventually I felt liberated and relieved. I know this is what had to happen and that it's the best way for everyone involved. The problem is it had to be 'the harsh hand of saturn' to make me move on ... I couldn't do it before."
Maybe that's just because it leads into what those transits do a lot of the time, Though I don't see saturn's hand as harsh and I just finished my return and had something that was not at all like that, but with the same energetic quality happen so maybe that's why I found that line interesting. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 3:04 AMRose,
I guess you haven't made the same 'mistakes' as other people. The harsh hand metaphor was some personal perception - maybe because I haven't paid too much attention to 'saturnine stuff' until now , I have always been so concerned with various other kinds of things (and this is a stellium in 10th house speaking - probably this is one of the reasons why it all seems to come hard on me with the Saturn return : I have not given due consideration and time to what is supposedly 'my life purpose', so to speak .. my stellium includes the sun and it's an energy nucleus that I probably haven't used in full, I must have let it dissipate in the opposite sign and house, as I've heard it often happens..)
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 2:54 AMYou're absolutely free to make some different use of your spare time, in that case - not write here, nor take active part in this tribe, not even read the 'supposedly new stuff'. Generally boredom comes more easily to those who are not far from boring themselves. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 2:13 PMI believe I have a good deal invested in this tribe, actually, so it might be more productive to make some other sort of suggestion.
See, one of the things that really frosts my cookies is all the talk about the influences of transits and aspects in the natal chart, but when it comes right down to applying that information in situations where that might actually explain something, is that what is done here? No. Usually, it instantly devolves into some specious psychoanalysis of what sort of person you are or how you are "projecting" otherwise in need of labeling. Seldom is the actual stuff we are talking about applied in an attempt to understand any interactions that occur here, except in a manner akin to snide criticisms. Talking the talk is all well and good. Actually applying it in obvious contexts, such as a astrology tribe, seems like a thought that seldom happens.
You know, rather than finding myself boring or whatever other off-the-cuff assessment comes to mind about my reacting here the way I have, it might be of some value to see what is happening in the chart. Same thing for the rest of us. Now, I understand that can be pretty tough to do when people don't post charts for whatever reason they don't, so, of course it is not always possible to do that. But that is not my case, certainly. I mean, it might be entirely possible that the re-runs I see bore me because they are re-runs of old material, and I am impatient because few people even check to see what the discussions were a year ago or so. That might have something to do with Mars aspects to Uranus, either transiting or natal, etc. But does that matter on an astrology tribe? Or is it just easier to say that I am bored because I am boring myself?
Frankly, I'd like to see some stuff taken to a higher level. More walking the walk. And hey, I am perfectly willing to admit that I really haven't been doing that myself, but that mostly because I think we are on different pages with this, and it gets exasperating to me to try to communicate when it seems like no one is listening, and, also because sometimes it is the emotion of the exasperation that dominates my mind, even with an Aqua Moon. So, yeah, I am guilty, too.
But I have to say that it really sucks when you are talking on an astrology tribe and most of the people haven't even posted a chart to let me see what I might see to clarify to me where they are coming from in interacting with me. I mean like you, ashley. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 3:08 PMi have no idea what you're talking about amiable??
okay so you're bored because life isn't exactly the way you want it, yeah that happens to EVERYONE. i want so many things right now that im not getting, i could go on forever to list all the ways i wish my life were different
for me, id rather look at myself in a simple way, rather than blame everything on the planets.. is that what you're talking about???
well, maybe you need to find a way more hardcore astrology group, astrology church?
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 4:10 PMNo. Actually my life right now is highly dynamic, mysterious, and engaging. Perhaps that is why I am finding a lot of stuff here so boring.
I don't know how I can make it plainer, baby egg. It is like the same stuff over and over and over, as I said. People repeating themselves, not putting the stuff into obvious practice here on the tribe ~ and really what I am saying is about the tribe. Sometimes the cigar really is just the cigar. While I get that people might extrapolate my comments into some judgmental psychological assessment of my state of self, I assure you that is misguided.
I might seem renegade or confrontational, but I really am not that way for no purpose. And you might not see the purpose, understand, or approve of it, but I am really not just lashing out because my life sucks.
I am involved now with two men with totally different personalities, and it is all quite astrologically familiar, and yet completely new with both. I totally don't feel a need to make any choices. I am seeing extraordinary things within myself about relating and identity and I can't even begin to say what more. What areas of my life that might seem to be a real problem are becoming clear as not at all problems. While the world may not be my oyster, it is really not bad at all. I have things I am looking forward to and things that are good here and now.
I want us here to do what we talk about, and clearly I am not being understood. What can I say? Maybe I just don't have the right words at the moment. But it is like we either get way too into our own dramas and sorting those out, or way too abstract and lofty to find much that translates into anything resembling real. Or it is too much astronomy and not enough astrology so that people either politely move on or wind up confused. Or bored. Can't I say that? Is it so offensive? Isn't it possible that I might just be telling the Emperor that he is naked right now, at least from my point of view? I don't think anyone here knows that they cannot debate me. They can tell me that I am full of shit if they want to do that, and they do, as you know. But to me, I'd like to see some real stuff ~ just like you started with me recently ~ like, omg how freaky that we have these aspects and things going on between us ~ but we never got to what that might mean, really in a dialogue with each other, and really, no one here that I see is doing the same. Okay. Some people here are satisfying themselves. But I have a voice, too, and I am saying that I really think we have sunk around here. I can see where we have been and where we look like we are going, and it just rings alarm bells in me, which I see that few are hearing. That's all, really.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:19 PMwellllll, i gave you those readings/ musings to help you, but it took a lot of effort on my part. i thought 'woah, she's still messed up about this issue" and I kinda felt bad, but Its not like i am really that into doing that. I dont think there are many people who are into either.... I think making deep connections with people is sorta rare and reserved for close friends... i dont see the internet as that space, but sometimes the anonymous of it all makes me feel more comfortable. I think interactions are mostly surface level between people who aren't very close, and Ive learned that It helps me to take on a more detached view of the world while i am interacting with it. I hardly get to have really deep conversations with my really close friends... I think everyone i know, including me.. is just trying to enjoy life, to feel it but not talk too loudly about it, its nice when it just rolls off your tongue.
so i personally think your expectations are pretty far fetched, but not impossible... just its something you'll have to seek out and try not to act like you want it so bad, thats what really clogs the natural flow of things happening i think. people can sense it, and they dont want to interact at that point. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:57 PMI don't have much trouble establishing better connections with people on other tribes, so I think that assessment is rather bogus. And I really don't get this thing about since it is the internet nobody is "real." Sounds like a complete social and emotional cop out to me. You meet people in all sorts of ways, and that doesn't mean one way makes people less "real" than another. What I think "clogs" things up is that attitude, really, because it allows people to treat this place like a mere mirror where little matters. Pretty shallow, if you ask me, and therefore, boring when it gets that way.
I don't know why you thought I needed "help," which I sure don't feel I do, thanks anyway. Maybe when you are older you will understand a little better, baby egg. You gotta hatch first.
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:37 PMAmiablehermit - I can understand if you're dissatisfied with the tribe. But, if that is the case, perhaps you should find other forums that suit you (as I do). Also, you might be the one to start posts that you find to be more interesting vs. expressing boredom in other's interests. It just doesn't seem particularly productive to sit back and complain about everyone, or even attack others in order to pass the time, without giving constructive advice to fix the situation. If you are unhappy here, why do you stay, other than to pick fights and to put people down? I just don't get it. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:03 PMNo, you wouldn't Teresa. But please don't presume to tell me what I should or could do. I am not complaining to pass the time.
I see this place losing members and idling in ways it did not do a year ago in spite of the fact that the overall tone of the place has improved. It has sunk, in my estimation, and I would like to see it revived. You don't get it, and a lot of other people are not getting it. But I see it, and so do some other people ~ believe it or not ~ who are yawning right along with me. I have other forums I spend more time on, but this one, as I have said, I have invested in in ways you obviously do not understand. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:24 AMAmiable
"You don't get it, and a lot of other people are not getting it. But I see it, and so do some other people ~ believe it or not ~ who are yawning right along with me."
Start a new thread that will have such a topic that will revive the place.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:31 PM" But it is like we either get way too into our own dramas and sorting those out, or way too abstract and lofty to find much that translates into anything resembling real. Or it is too much astronomy and not enough astrology so that people either politely move on or wind up confused. "
Some people here are totally into astrology, studying and absorbing information quickly. Most are dabblers with a keen but slow interest. It's quite certain that for most people, learning a topic can only work if it's applicable in their life or character. So perhaps we shouldn't expect eveyone to have constellations and joseph cambell knowledge spitting out of their mouths?
As for not walking the talk when it comes to astrology, I do think I've 'seen' many people take what they've learnt or discussed (however self-absorbedly - is there such a word?) into their real lives and made actual improvements. Most of those who are here do not really learn astrology as a scholarly pleasure. So while I feel I can understand your frustration or boredom, Amiable, this is after all, a general astrology tribe where people here are so diverse with their knowledge - from sun signs to cosmobiology. And you have so many like-minded people here to talk indepth with - Teresa, Raymond, Yoda, Lady Saber, Zane, Paul...etc :)
Give us slow learners a break...self-discovery is an important step in gaining a mastery over anything.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:14 PMI am no astrologer, as I have always said. I am not talking about people learning or being at one level or another. I am talking about getting away from redundancy, the frivolous and self-absorbed, the rehashing of old material because people are too lazy to look back before the first page, over-emphasis on astronomy when this is an astrology tribe, not applying what they may or may not in "RL" to the actual human beings here.
All in all I have been reviewing everything here for weeks and even months and getting increasingly more steamed and exasperated because I can see what could be happening. We have lost some good people here in the course of the last several weeks, and I can understand why. But I am getting pretty pissed off at people telling me to take a hike. I have been taking a hike, and the landscape is getting increasingly drab every time I check in. -
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Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:29 PMAmiable - people may not frequent here because they are busy or are bored with astrology. As in all hobbies, we come and go in our interests. I've been in and out of this tribe for two yrs, and I've seen people come and go and come again. Droughts in conversation occur, as do weeks where a lot of interesting ideas come up. I've seen weeks were there were no posts at all, so I'd hardly call this time any different than any other.
There may even be something astrological in this because several planets are void of aspect right now. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 10:11 PMLike anyone would even check.
Well, I have been here day in and day out for about a year and a half, and it looks like we have hit a new low.
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:38 PM"I am talking about getting away from redundancy, the frivolous and self-absorbed, the rehashing of old material because people are too lazy to look back before the first page, over-emphasis on astronomy when this is an astrology tribe, not applying what they may or may not in "RL" to the actual human beings here. "
This doesn't seem to be something anyone can control. Perhaps some posters did look back in previous threads but decide to start a new one anyway to cater for a discussion more suitable for them. It's not quite fair to assume they were too lazy to do so. Sometimes it works to give the topic a new post because the old thread's energy may have run out and the poster may feel that no one might want to reply to a new post in an old thread. I guess all I'm saying is one does not have to get worked up over things like that. Even the persistant 'How to seduce a scorpio' thread comes up to serve it's own purpose...
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:20 PMAmiable -
You are throwing all these heavy-handed, preachy fits all over the place and lecturing other people for not doing or being the way you think they should - which would be fine, if you were God or perfect yourself.
Besides, a lot of the so-called 'stupid' threads, I've seen you actually post in so I don't take you seriously in that respect, either.
*bored with this* -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:18 PMYou should be the last one to talk, Book, given your penchant for rants. It is not as though you are not opinionated and regularly told so. Does that make you God? Screw that.
Yeah, I will participate because what else is there to do here?
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 9:40 PMBook - it's best not to feed into it. I've had various private messages from ppl about her drama (I think all of them male, btw). We aren't the only ones who are tired of the hissy fits, we are just the ones who say something about it.
If you REALLY want to get to a Leo-esq person, you ignore them. I think the men are onto something. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 10:20 PMBrilliant, Teresa. Nothing like vague innuendoes to really make a valid point. I get private messages from men about you and your ego, too, but have had the good manners not to rub your nose in them. We all understand now that you are both beautiful and nearly a genius. Guys are not impressed.
I am not interested in popularity contests, clearly. You are totally missing the point.
Interesting way you have of ignoring me, btw. It is very clear how you do that. "Leo-esque" do you mean? Or are you saying I am an attorney? If the former, I assure you I am not "esque" ~ I am a Leo ~ no "esque" to it. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 1:42 AMOh dear. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 1:49 AMMake some popcorn, Lady Saber. The fun's just beginning me thinks... -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 1:57 AMMe no want popcorn. Me want astro! -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:17 AMamen to that...
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:44 AM**** I might seem renegade or confrontational, but I really am not that way for no purpose. And you might not see the purpose, understand, or approve of it, but I am really not just lashing out because my life sucks. ****
No, Amiable, don't worry, you don't seem confrontational - but you're welcome to change that, of course :-D.
BTW, I generally like people with a prominent uranian component; it's just that they always seem to sit 'on the fence' waiting for others to get exciting, unusual, unconventional, entertaining, etc. enough for their taste and needs without actually being that way themselves (I relate them to the 'come on, entertain me while I sit here just waiting and watching' type - why don't they actively do something about it? be unusual themselves, engage in interesting stuff, I don't know, whatever they are lookng for)
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:17 AMAmiable,
Believe me I'd be surprised if I heard some things about my chart that I don't already know. But I admit I'd be also flattered if someone happened to show interest in this - instead of suspecting some other reason for that, how about considering this?
If you'd like to see stuff taken to some 'higher level', well, then do something about it! you're welcome to raise standards (but consider doing this in a concrete manner, via your own contributions, not only through claims) and make any potential manifest . Actually to be a good old catalyst for that :).
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:43 PM"is one signaled that the choices that have been made were altogether wrong and one has been living without acknowledging it?"
maybe it's not that the choices were wrong. After all, it seemed like the right choice at THAT time. Saturn is old Chronos. And you're not the stagnant person you were then. So as you change, your environment changes and then Saturn transits come and tell you to move and grow accordingly. We love conflicts - we love change and we love fixity! I love the saturn-uranus opposition!
"Should one expect the same during the whole transit or is anything likely to change after the need for some correction becomes obvious and is acted upon?"
As with any transits, once the change is made, other changes will follow. It seems unlikely that things will revert to their former situations if your choices have been weighty and conscious, no? I have my saturn at 15* libra, 2nd house too. Learning astrology and reading many different and rich experiences of other people's saturn return has made me want to turn my transit from one of tribulation into that of triumph. But hey, anything goes! I agree that if you look back at the 7 year cycles or even study the aspects that Saturn makes in your chart, you can usually find a theme that needs to be worked upon.
"Why don't the areas affected by the return limit to the house placement of natal Saturn? "
I think just as everything in one's life is connected in some way or another, so are the planets in our natal chart. In certain areas, certain planets make dominate but they will still be coloured by how your whole chart comes together. It's quite astounding for me whenever I can see this one-in-all-all-in-one element, either in charts or in rea life. Blows my mind!
Good luck with your upcoming return.
I also find keyword useful for saturn.
Saturn in Libra, exalted, the high judge. the master, careful strategist who relies on his people (relationships) to balance his harmonious ideals. So those of us with a Libran Saturn might find our challenge when it comes to relationships with others. In the second house, maybe we feel we're never good enough for the person, at the same time, we never feel adequate security (be it value or material) coming from the other side? -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 2:34 AMThnx for your feedback, Jaqueline, and for trying to encourage me - I don't expect anything to return to the old forms, I just wonder what other changes (except for the chain ones) I should excpect. But until now it seems to work, I've come to terms with the new stuff in my life. It feels better in many respects. The problem was the abruptness of the change - for someone with a lot of fixed energy like me, the first steps of changing something are never easy. I like Saturn in Libra in the 2nd ... I also have a 10th house venus, so I don't find them so incompatible after all ... -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Thu, October 29, 2009 - 7:13 PM"The problem was the abruptness of the change - for someone with a lot of fixed energy like me, the first steps of changing something are never easy. I like Saturn in Libra in the 2nd ... I also have a 10th house venus, so I don't find them so incompatible after all ... "
I hear you about change since my natal chart also has strong fixed energies. My venus in taurus is in 9th house, and not making any aspects to Saturn. But I have south node in capricorn and Saturn aspects my sun and moon. Generally I don't find changes made during Saturn transits to be abrupt (it's tough but not so bad). I have a harder time with the other outer planets' transits. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 12:18 AMI think it's only abrupt when you have been delaying making a choice to the point for Saturn to make HIS decision. If you are more sensitive to the signals and incremental changes culminating to it very early on and respond accordingly, the final blow is not as difficult or painful. But if you have been putting it off and ignoring the signs, Saturn's blow can be swift and steady. -
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 3:17 AMRight. I know that - I had probably delayed for some good time, since the change came about exactly at the beginning of the saturn return. I guess I wasn't very familiar to saturn's signals . Until now;) .
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Re: Saturn return - what is one called to account for?
Fri, October 30, 2009 - 3:14 AMYeah, I'm the opposite - no Saturn aspect to personal planets, so saturnine type of changes seem odd and somehow unpredictable. I probably have some easier time with outer planets (except for Neptune, it squared my sun and some other stuff some years ago and I didn't like it all all).
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