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The 12th House is probably the most misunderstood of the twelve astrological houses, I think, partly because most of the traditional astrology books written during the Age of Pisces were infected by a victim virus, or martyr meme. This is no blanket statement about Pisces Sun people but a reference to the shadow of a two-thousand year epoch of Christianity and its crucified man-god.
I do think the 12th house can represent the neurosis of self-stabbing victimization as long as the innate conditions of this House are misunderstood and complicated into problems that do not actually exist. The innate 12th House conditions I refer to are universal human conditions of solitude, being lost in the wilderness and unity with Source.
SOLITUDE. Planets in the 12th house refer to aspects of our experience that require serious withdrawal and alone time to access. Solitude, as opposed to lonliness, expresses the gratifying element of being alone. Alone, as in all one; all alone. Solitude is a universal condition that not every personality is comfortable with, unless they have 12th house planets. For example, a person with a 12th house Uranus may not know true freedom without solitude.
LOST IN THE WILDERNESS. Being lost expresses an innate, universal human condition. Whosoever espouses doctrine that claims they know where humans came from or why we are here is an, albeit good intentioned, LIAR. Bottomline is it's all unknown: we don't know why we're here. A lot of people cannot live with that uncertainty and resort to complex systems of thought, belief, religion and yes astrology, to fabricate a sense of purpose where none exists. Being lost is not a problem; it's central to the human condition. Making it a problem can feed the martyr complex that eats that suffering. Another way of reframing this sense of "lostness" is aimless wandering, or "wu wei" (google it).
UNITY WITH SOURCE. The experience of cosmic unity, or oneness with all of existence, refers to a deep human need for gnosis, or direct knowledge of God. The cause of much human suffering stems from being cut off and divided from Source by the self-imposed borders, divisions, boundaries society (we) create in an attempt to organize and control the chaos of real life. People with 12th house planets need a little, or a lot more, of this natural chaos in their lives and tend to shy away from and/or avoid any externally imposed categorizations that theaten their experience of deep unity.
FOR THOSE WITH 12th HOUSE PLANETS: To the degree you have made a problem out of any of the above conditions (or have bought into society's problems about them), you may have unwittingly pathologized the 12th House and are suffering from the victim virus. No blame; it is not your fault. If you can reframe the 12th house conditions in context to universal human conditions -- rather than as problems that need to be solved -- you can begin healing the split within you and restoring your humanity.
"Life is not a problem to be solved but a mystery to be lived."
William Butler Yeats
I do think the 12th house can represent the neurosis of self-stabbing victimization as long as the innate conditions of this House are misunderstood and complicated into problems that do not actually exist. The innate 12th House conditions I refer to are universal human conditions of solitude, being lost in the wilderness and unity with Source.
SOLITUDE. Planets in the 12th house refer to aspects of our experience that require serious withdrawal and alone time to access. Solitude, as opposed to lonliness, expresses the gratifying element of being alone. Alone, as in all one; all alone. Solitude is a universal condition that not every personality is comfortable with, unless they have 12th house planets. For example, a person with a 12th house Uranus may not know true freedom without solitude.
LOST IN THE WILDERNESS. Being lost expresses an innate, universal human condition. Whosoever espouses doctrine that claims they know where humans came from or why we are here is an, albeit good intentioned, LIAR. Bottomline is it's all unknown: we don't know why we're here. A lot of people cannot live with that uncertainty and resort to complex systems of thought, belief, religion and yes astrology, to fabricate a sense of purpose where none exists. Being lost is not a problem; it's central to the human condition. Making it a problem can feed the martyr complex that eats that suffering. Another way of reframing this sense of "lostness" is aimless wandering, or "wu wei" (google it).
UNITY WITH SOURCE. The experience of cosmic unity, or oneness with all of existence, refers to a deep human need for gnosis, or direct knowledge of God. The cause of much human suffering stems from being cut off and divided from Source by the self-imposed borders, divisions, boundaries society (we) create in an attempt to organize and control the chaos of real life. People with 12th house planets need a little, or a lot more, of this natural chaos in their lives and tend to shy away from and/or avoid any externally imposed categorizations that theaten their experience of deep unity.
FOR THOSE WITH 12th HOUSE PLANETS: To the degree you have made a problem out of any of the above conditions (or have bought into society's problems about them), you may have unwittingly pathologized the 12th House and are suffering from the victim virus. No blame; it is not your fault. If you can reframe the 12th house conditions in context to universal human conditions -- rather than as problems that need to be solved -- you can begin healing the split within you and restoring your humanity.
"Life is not a problem to be solved but a mystery to be lived."
William Butler Yeats
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 11:34 PMThank You Sherpa,
I have a 12th house Sun and Jupiter in Gemini and a Mercury in Taurus. When I first read of my 12th house status the drums of doom began to pound in the distance. Words like prison, suffering, self-undoing, are not terribly promising. As I've gotten older I trend to think of the 12 house as the liminal lands, the unconcious, Dreamland, where things lie hidden or unmanifest. I have thought of my partiicular twelfth house as the Hermit card, alone in the mists and lifting his lantern.
The quote at the end of your post is particularly relavant because the twelfth house asksd us to befriend mystery.
Thanks for adding to my understanding and appreciation for something that so dominantly figures into my chart.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 11:59 PMI have a 12th house Sun, Mercury, and Pluto in Scorpio.
A very astute description Sherpa, at least in regards to my own personal experiences. I've always been alone, or at least felt alone, completely unable to relate to everyone around me - which is allright, really, but it does get tiring at times.
Short of school and work, I spent a good 90% of my time in complete solitude, being around groups of people has a "draining" effect on me that it does not seem to have on others. I need a ton of time alone to be able to regroup just to be able to go out in the morning.
Have you ever read the poem "Anywhere Out Of The World" by Baudelaire? This to me sums up what the 12th house is all about, at least in my life. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:53 AMPaul,
Anywhere Out Of The World" by Baudelaire is one of my favorite works by him (Flowers of Evil, too) which I have performed live with musical accompaniment. I'm also fond of the symbolist poets like Rimbaud ("Mouvement") Coleridge's ("Kubla Khan") both of which I have used in my films and paratheatre events. I know this may be getting off astrology but there's something about the 12th house that seems very off of astrology, eh ?
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:31 AMWhat do you recommend? I can't turn my mind off with my two most personal planets in Gemini falling just north of the Asc. I've had many guides who've mentioned the need for meditation and all one concepts. Tried, but without earnest. I'm afraid to be alone with my own thoughts, that's the truth. Eventually, after I've exhausted all mental possibilities to a given problem, my brain turns itself off and I have nothing for other people...Then I'm truly alone.
I'm aware of the process, but my imbedded program is too hard to penetrate (and not for lack of trying, I do have strong, supportive planets should I choose to use them). I'm trusting the universe on this one...I'll get it eventually. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:36 AMvaroom,
Though your two personal planets are in the 12th house, they actually are conjunct your Ascendent. I agree that meditation would fail for such an active mind as yours. What would I recommend ? I would recommend two things:
1) learn to get your attention off of yourself.
2) ponder the wisdom of 'no escape' -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:53 AMUnderstand the first part Dr. Sherps.. but that second part will keep me up most of the next couple of days; what a nail (hit or miss, It struck something). We (all six of us) will keep you posted ;-) -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 5:09 AMMy youngest child has 12th house sun oddly enough the first house Venus this seems to shift things some.
The kid is responsible and serious -yet has an aire of charisma and is able to get the necessary things done while still having fun.
A self starter and independent- Aries rising .
From my maternal Pisces moon observations the twelth house seems to offer a place for the sun to study and learn-a place of peaceful refuge.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 6:13 AM>>For example, a person with a 12th house Uranus may not know true freedom without solitude.<<
Sherpa, you really nailed that one. With Uranus in the 12th house, Cancer, I feel at home in solitude, and really free -- especially in wilderness, either mountain or desert, where I go to connect with source. Nature is what happens when nobody interferes -- free of other people's intentions and cross-purposes, deeply into the wu wei of what happens without action, I can see how the center is the circumference.... -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 8:37 AMMy Gemini Moon falls into the 12th house, and with my Taurs Sun in the 11th, I seem to struggle with the need to be "part of the group", while at the same time needing to just be "left alone". I *love* bookstores and libraries. Actual physical solitude with no contact from others depresses me terribly. I'm one of those who likes to have the house full of people, but stay locked away in my own room. The "unity with source" theme played itself out early in my life, and thankfully I have come to an understanding and realization that I am "one" with my creator. However I do spend a vast amount of time pondering over and researching the meaning behind it all. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 9:09 AMI have often thought that the 12th house was actually the house of beginnings from the end point. Or the completion cylce. I think that when a major planet goes through the 12 house, the super soul or the subconscious absorbs the energy or the impluse of experiences and then alters the path or creates a beginning out of the end cylce. I feel that every new experience is created in the 12th house with the planets as they transit it.
Remember the late 80s and early 90s when Saturn, Neptune and Uranus went through the sign capricorn. Well it rules my 12th and my 1st house, since then I have altered a great deal about myself. My abitions changed to being more personal and modest, Plus the whole realtionship with life changed, Saturn, my view of the world and religious philosophy changed also, Neptune, and I became self exiled in a hermetic type of way, using my freedom for privacy Uranus. Those transits lasted quite a few yrs together and I went through a major change.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 11:54 PM"I'm one of those who likes to have the house full of people, but stay locked away in my own room."
Me too, exactly..got that same moon in just about the same position. after a bit, when aloness and boredom set in, I'll leave my 'office', go back in, share what I've learned, get turbulance, applause and a whole bunch of other crap I need; then I have to be alone again, solitiude. Until I'm exhausted. It's a terrible cycle; meditation does not work for this Gemini, pure physical exercise does (I hike on average 5x/wk, it's when I get my most creative; the harder the exertion, the better!)
I tried every type of aerobic ex, being in nature alone is the one that works for me.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 9:44 AM>A lot of people cannot live with that uncertainty and resort to complex systems of thought, belief, religion and yes astrology, to fabricate a sense of purpose where none exists
what would life be without purpose/reflection/projection? even a slug has purpose. we create our purpose to evolve from. the problem arises when we get stuck, yes. but the smallest fabrication can be a huge leap for humanity. imagine being without purpose for a minute....even air has purpose...if it is simply to be, to be inhaled, to be transformed.
do you really believe that we don't know why we are here? i think a lot of us do and have forgotten and are re-creating our purpose from our subconscious, unwinding, fumbling through it till we get it right...till it surfaces and we go, ' aaaahhaaa! ' . can that be done without the friction tho? without the more primal, instinctual steps that lead us to that enlightening moment? how can there be fire without spark? i believe trial and error, conflict, uncertainty and all those things frowned upon indeed are the tiny spark that propels us further.
yes, uncertaity is someting we impose on ourselves and even each other. yes, indeed that is a disconnecton, but at the same time its a split second in a process that leads to something else...uncertainty, like boredom is the in-between. yet another plateau. step through that door or not?
>"Life is not a problem to be solved but a mystery to be lived."
William Butler Yeats
i think it's a bit of both....so entwined in one another that it's hard to see them as seperate. sorta like yin and yang spinning. one propells you to the other and vice versa. i enjoy solving mystery as much as i enjoy simply being it,living it. the two don't seperate.
that's probably what you are saying, and i'm just loooooping around to see the whole picture...hahaha!
yes, i too hated my so called 'fate' when i first read about the 12 house - the house of institutions, drug addicts, opium dens, hospitals, criminals, martyr like service, jesus christ and so many other labels...a very narrow minded descriptive...which for most part is true, in it's lowest form...once this low level of being/relating/experiencing is transformed it leads to something much greater.
---> the 12 house transformed, i see now as my subconscious connected to something much greater then the ' I' , my/our collective knowledge/genetics dating back (so far my conscious mind doesn't currently comprehend), all those things classified and labelled as 'impossible' in this linear human reality, transform in the 12 house. the 12 house transcends what you think you know as tried and true.
;-P
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 10:13 AMnow, i'm curious about something...maybe off track a bit.....
i can't help but sense that the 12 house is somewhat related to the 8th house as well...all this transformation business...leading to...a release.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 10:23 AMyes, there is more...i'm in overdrive with this thread....
12 house mercury, sun, venus....is like a chameleon.
being able to think/process, communicate from, relate to from so many different views. i never counted so can't say if it is actually the 12 signs that are osmotically intergrated into the 12 house merc...but it could very well be.
am i making up purpose where there is none? or 'simply' uploading from the depths of the subconscious? -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 11:17 AMstar_fish,
re: "am i making up purpose where there is none? or 'simply' uploading from the depths of the subconscious?"
I think the most honest 12th house answer to this question might be "I don't know" or maybe "a bit of both." Uploading from the depths of what we call "subconscious" (what a term!) does not assure meaningful or purposeful content ; not everything in the sea is edible.
Whether or not human life has a purpose on earth -- beyond evolving like every other living and dying organism -- who can say ? My point about there being "no purpose beyond the ideas of purpose we impose on the chaos" has more to do with the 12th house need for relaxing our grip around making uncertainty such a problem by forcing certitude onto everything (as if it can make the uncertainty go away).
I'm not anti-purpose. I'm into creating purpose and living by that momentum while remaining open to also being totally clueless and lost. To me, the action resides in the heart of this human contradiction called humanity and not in its dissection.
It seems to me that when a mind becomes convinced that it knows anything or anybody in, it starts closing down. Everyone gets more set in their ways as they grow older. I'm working on setting my ways for an open mind.
Something about the so-called subconscious.
I think the split implied between "conscious" and "subconscious" (something Freud posited to further his studies in sexual pathology, dreams and neurosis) is arbitrary. To my experience, it's all Consciousness. What people call "the subconscious" merely expresses deeper degrees of Consciousness; not better, just deeper.
Not everything in the sea is edible. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 1:13 PM>." Uploading from the depths of what we call "subconscious" (what a term!) does not assure meaningful or purposeful content ; not everything in the sea is edible.
how do you know?
i don't say this as a challenge, but rather as something to take a step further....
what i figure is that everything is edible at some 'time' or another, when we grow the right digestive tract, when we evolve, when we are capable of absorbing that knowlege and putting it to use...when we learn to prepare it accordingly....to do so.
everything in it's ' time'...i belive it's already all here fulfilling it's purpose.
regarding the word 'subconscious'....i wasnt' referring to freud, but to a term to explain the opposite of conscious...not necessarily fragmented or seperate....more like the one part
we are 'used to' using less of. maybe it could be better described as ' unconscious'....unaware, altho i am aware it exists but not aware fully of it's content or how to use it...intergrate it...YET.
>My point about there being "no purpose beyond the ideas of purpose we impose on the chaos" has more to do with the 12th house need for relaxing our grip around making uncertainty such a problem by forcing certitude onto everything (as if it can make the uncertainty go away).
yes.... people try to control out of fear. fear of the unknown (12 house)
it seems like many here in this world, especially those in a place of obvious power, cannot relax their grip because they have worked so hard to get there, defining their reality mostly in concrete terms, and therefore feel like they earned to be on top of the tower they build.
yet that is an illusion, as i was telling my daughter yesterday that no matter how much one learns/evolves, it does not really stop. a person might stop and feel superior in it, yet they do not realize that it keeps growing/evolving past them...and one day they no longer sit at the top cause everything has changed...changed while they were buisy glorifying their position and brilliance. this was not inteded to be in referece to the tower (chaos) but that's the way it came out here.....funny i just saw the tower of babel in my mind.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 10:28 PMi love this
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 11:24 AMWith Saturn in Leo in the 12th, quotes like this -
"A Twelfth House Saturn suggests that your career or area of responsibility in the world relates in some way to work in seclusion, or for the care or education of others - perhaps in social work, hospitals, prisons, universities, religion or the arts. Your nature is acquisitive, reserved and inclined to solitude, with a desire to work unpretentiously, unobserved, and live peacefully or alone. With this placing of Saturn you may experience negative inner pressures related to subconscious insecurity, secret sorrows, fear, loneliness and disappointment. You may at some stage suffer false accusations by secret enemies."\
- are the most prevalent data I've come across.
And I have never been able to relate to that manner of thinking. How it manifest for me me is definitely in the arena of solitude, and sometimes on the Unity with source you mentioned, Sherpa. I have had fears and limitations around creating/expressing myself in groups of people in the past, and I find I usually prefer to work alone. I have always required a lot of time alone - but the flip side of saturn in the 12th is too much time alone! I have gotten better at recognizing the signs when it's crossed the line to too much time alone, but I still wouldn't say I'm good at it! :)
Saturn in the 12th has definitely put me face to face with self-imposed limitations in the areas of hyper-self criticism, un-due comparison, exceedingly high standards. And it's also seeded the inclination to be too responsible, and responsible before fun or levity.
I have my moon in Cancer in the 11th, and I have often longed for a creative warm social group of friends, however in reality, I seem mostly unable to bring that kind of environment to me. I think it is Saturn's influence. I am often told I am too serious, too opinionated, too hard working, and too willing to see reality before the dream.
The Unity with Source part comes when I do achieve the type of solitude I require - when I am working on art and my spirit is deeply involved with a creative act - even if that act happens to be sweeping the floor. Doing rather than dwelling has been what has 'saved' me - so to speak - from the more negative sides of the 12th house. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:25 PMSherpa .thank you for confirming and clarifing the 12th house meaning,
the *old school* interpretation has always annoyed me ...
aloneness ,strong mystical tendencies ,psychich experiences ,
and great imaginations have been always a reward not a curse ..
certainly enjoyable ,as I feel like 'Alice in Wonderland ' .....
there is always somthing happening in my world ,boredom doesn't have place in my Universe ...and with 6 planets in the 12th ..I have been always self entarteiing :
one of my mottos is [as a Leo of course ]I'm starring in my favorite show
and what's best , I'm my own favorite and loyal audience ]
I guess discoverring what is hidden and wanting to find the core of facts
is much part of the 12th too ..but I may be confused at this point ..
could this be a valid reason to my identification with Mermaids ..
as the Ocean of Poseidon is [if I remember right I don't know ]
connected to this house ?
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 12:41 PMwhy-oh-ming,
re: "12th House Saturn"
I look at natal Saturn as representing a cycle of maturation in a person's life that usually starts out as a specific fear (usually based in some sense of inadequacy) that draws attention to an area that requires self-responsibility in an ongoing cycle of converting fear into commitment.
The 12th house Saturn fear may stem from deep doubts about the legitmacy of the out-there material world. Over time, this can lead to your commitment to withdraw into the solace of solitude and build within the psyche itself a kind of internal sanctuary to protect the soul's uncommon sensitivity. And so, the Saturn work or responsibility here is to the soul's protection.
Many with this placement choose to reside near wilderness regions or take up a lifelong solitary spiritual practice or implement other internal structures to contain and preserve the inner life from the sometimes psychically damaging "worldly" influences of cynicism, greed, excessive materialism, status mongering, social climbing, etc.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 1:05 PMSherpa, a lot of what you said is right on, as usual. However I think I tend to make more of "wilderness region" or a similar sanctuary out of my home. I simply have to have a decompression zone, and as it is where I tend to work - I am very selective about the kinds of environments I put myself into. It's always a balancing point, between too much self protection - which quickly becomes narrow mindedness, and too little self protection, so that I am unfocused and bitter.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 1:09 PMStar fish-
12th, 8th and the 4th make up a water triad they are very much interelated - they have reputation for being the phychic houses .
each of the water houses represents some kind of solitude -endings and beginings -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 1:16 PMahhhh...kate! thank you for solidifying that...i had a feeling but didn't quite piece it together.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 1:08 PMI don't have any planets in the 12th house and you could say I am addicted to solitude.
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Re: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ??? NO-THING
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 5:07 PMah yes..........it's finally clear, right there in front of me (behind me, under me, above me)!
with no planets in my 12th house, ruled by Pisces, solitude is requred in order to have any chance of connection with THE VOID. and with Neptune conj. Moon/Saturn in my 7th house, it's fitting that I ended up with someone who values, protects, and demands solitude (his and mine)!!!!! tralalalala.......there is absolutely NOTHING to A-VOID...........................................
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 5:49 PMInteresting... "wu wei" -- the characters in Chinese -- will be tatooed on my left arm beneath "Nye Dua" which means "alter of God" from the Adinkra symbology.
I have a 12th house moon that I like to talk about... a lot... which is in keeping since it is in Gemini. However, since my Return (and would someone tell Saturn to just move the fuck on?), I experience my moon much differently. Instead of struggling against being all one... all alone... isolated, I put myself in isolation (and remind myself, gently, to come out of it)...
I say, all of that is part of being a 12th house Mooner, indeed. However, the one thing you don't address is... that we can be our own worst enemies.
I know that I can social butterfly myself into a really dangerous place.
I could struggle to feel "found" and lose actually being "found.
I could lose my feeling of wholeness.
What I am trying to get at is that it is easier for 12th housers to get into these kinds of mindsets. The only "victim" is the self -- the self trying to transcend self instead of understanding that transcending the self is about first getting *into* the self.
Namaste,
Quentin Ergane -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 6:06 PMI have neptune in the 12th house. I am addicted to dreams and illusions. I def prefer solitude and rest from the everyday chaos of the world. I am extremley sensitive to the problems of others and would rather die than see another human being suffer........I have had my addictions to escapism through psychedelics, which by the way someone in boulder once saw my chart and told me fungus wasn't good for someone with a 12th house neptune....... I am drawn to mysticism and all things related to spirituallity. I believe my neptune in the 12th house is where I hide the most....I'd like to not escape so much, but maybe I can't help it since I have this 12th house placement. I must say that I am grateful that it isn't afflicted........ -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 12:13 AMNeptune is in the 3rd house for me. But Uranus and Pluto is in the 12th. I think I get more angry when I hear about people being mistreated. And also scared because I think I myself can easily be a victim. But that's more complex, really. I can get rather misanthropic and I tend to blame society alot. A great theme for this would probably be "I Almost Cut My Hair" by (of course) CSN&Y... (From someone ironically short-haired and with "anti-hippie" tendancies such as I!)
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 7:14 PMI really like your post Quentin. The Saturn part made me laugh out loud. Are you currently in your Saturn return? I'm getting through mine :)
This is a good topic (the 12th house, solitude, etc) for everyone to discuss. I've learned a lot :) -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 11:01 PMNah. Just... transiting Saturn is still hovering over/around/conjunct my natal Saturn. I guess it's making sure I attend to my shit. I am pretty hardheaded, it's true. But... damn!
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 7:37 PMVery interesting. I have been really confused by my 12th house. I have jupiter conjunct saturn in the 12th house. I don't know what to make of this. I have to have alone time. I am actually content by myself for long periods of time. Well, besides my 9 month old, but I mean in terms of the general population. I don't like crowds very much, and I get a lot of vibes from people. I don't know whether this is my intuition telling me something, or perhaps just my own insecurities.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, May 31, 2006 - 11:31 PMI have the Sun and Jupiter in my 12th house, but I lack the knowledge to know what that means.
I looked at my AstroClick at astro.com (and posted my chart in my pictures) and read the interpretations it gives, based upon Robert Hand's "Youth Portrait." I can't discriminate the accuracy of this material in terms of astrology rules, but it said some things that I definitely agree with that relate to this topic, namely:
Sun:
"You have more compassion for others than most young people do. You love mysteries and secrets, imagination and fantasy... You may have had an extremely painful experience when you were very young. If so, you may think it was a punishment for something that you did, and you may be afraid that it will happen again."
This really struck me because I can trace back my change from ambitious, driven bitch to super-sympathetic lost individual to a very painful experience that I felt I could have altered. I've only recently begun work to move past that hurt, and "infected by a victim virus, or martyr theme" certainly resonates. This experience also triggered a tendency to fear getting close to others, and withdrawal from the world.
Jupiter: "You see that your own growth and advancement in life depend on the advancement of everyone as a group, and you would like to help in that process... You should be a very gentle person who cannot stand to see others hurt and who always takes the side of the underdog... And when you are alone, you find comfort in the peace and quiet of your own inner world, a world that should sustain you even in difficulty."
I really enjoy being alone. In fact, I need periods of solitude, or else I end up suffering from panic attacks or anxiety. I might even go so far as to say I enjoy being "LOST IN THE WILDERNESS" and take it to extremes in the case of belief systems. I tend to be anti-certainty, to the extent that I am averse to define myself or my own code of honor.
I'm still working on how to reframe these experiences, but I find it fascinating to see this in my chart. Any input or clarification from all of you out there more knowledgeable of astrology than me would definitely be read and enjoyed. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 10:44 AMI like Jeffery Wolf Greens interpitation of the 12 house and pisces. It represents other planes of existence. Such as a moon in the 12 would represent that the person must feel in the personality other deminsions of the self. Jupiter and the Sun would indicate a quest in understanding the hidden elements of life and so on. I have noticed that the 12 house is the hidden agenda, the blanket so to speech. I also feel that the 12 house the last mutable house seems to feel more intuition with the planets that seem to be there, often so flexible that they adapt to any given situation. Of course the ruling sign has much to do with it. It is one of the most mysterious houses to read in a chart, but one thing I think is for real with this is that, its the house of what you must overcome and learn most about, in your Pyche. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 1, 2006 - 11:20 AMbrian, i like that explanation a lot. i can relate to it.
it is definately more intuitive...having my venus, merc and sun in the 12 house i mostly operate and speak from intuition...which is a lot of times challenged because i don't have facts to back it up, or that im contradicting cause i can switch views like a chameleon in order to explore all aspects of it.
for merc in the 12 house it's like i have to verbalize, write and express, and through doing so 'it' becomes real. it takes a lot of trust for me to do this cause it's like letting go of what i already know, what other's might think of it, judge me, and let totally go in order to channel this knowledge. sometimes its outright scary and weird to feel fumbling like that...time and time again, meanwhile people learn by adding onto, i learn by stripping away in order to remain clear.
i've dismissed a lot of this during my life, only to find those ideas to be manifested by others at another time....some of these ideas that either i or others dismissed in me at the time as weird or stupid or impssible have later in time manifested as such things as 'trends' . i feel more confident these days that i can in fact see what's coming next...the confidence and comfort comes from looking back on what has already manifested.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 12:23 AMSherpa -
It's strange how every time I'm wondering about something (like the 12th house), I come here and find you've made an incredible post about just that thing.
I have a 12th house Part of Fortune, which I don't really understand a whole lot about, but I'm learning little by little..........more now since reading your post.
I think now I'm starting to understand the universal context, but I wonder how you generalize a Part of Fortune?
Kim
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 12:35 AMKim,
re: "...I wonder how you generalize a Part of Fortune? "
Why generalize when we can be specific ? The PF, as I understand it, represents the union of material and spiritual wealth, where and how we might find the kind of wealth to make us "rich and happy". Mine is conjunct my 9th House Moon and wealth has consistently come from my work as an astrologer, teacher and author (all 9th House vocations).
In the 12th House, your wealth might be defined in more purely spiritual terms or fortune that arrives via invisible nonlocal sources (the lottery? salvaging shipwrecks for buried treasure ?). If you recall the last time transiting Jupiter conjunct your Part of Fortune, maybe that timing coincided with wealth. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 7:22 AMDo you think having Jupiter AND Saturn in the 12th house is a bad aspect? Some people have a bad interpretation, some people have a good one. I truly believe Jupiter is a good planet to have in the 12th. I have read many things, and drawing from my own life experiences it means a guardian angel in life. I have had many close calls and strange experiences that would definately lead me to believe I have something or someone watching over me. However, I'm not sure about the Saturn explanation. It could mean bad karma, but I don't do things to receive bad karma, as I always think before I say or act for fear of hurting other people's feelings, and I also keep to myself and have always done my best to avoid confrontations. Perhaps in a past life-- but I'm not so certain I believe in that anyways. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 9:53 AMBellaRose,
12th house jupiter/saturn I am assuming they are conjunct.
What I have seen from the outside looking in regarding others with that configuration -
-I would agree with your analogy it does sort of act as a guardian, i would also add the following words.
"It brings in the wisdom where there is innocense."
K.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 2, 2006 - 9:01 AMSherpa -
hmmm. Once again, you make total sense. How's this for "invisible nonlocal sources" .......... for years now, 90% of my working life has been working remotely from home for larger companies (programming, editing - maybe because of my 10th house Mercury?). But it does feel unbelievable confining most of the time. I know I should be thankful to be able to work from home, but I'd rather sit in traffic even just to be around people sometimes.
Thanks for that insight. (maybe now I'll sleep easier knowing I'm not "destined" for prison! lol )
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, June 6, 2006 - 11:42 AMi am not sure why i ddint respond to this thread earlier.. but i find it very interesting.. i do not understand this house at all really or the planets that i have in this house and what they mean..
my 12 is ruled by libra .. and i have a pluto in libra there as well as a saturn in libra there ...
i feel sometimes like my planets all segregated and ordered themselves... -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, June 6, 2006 - 11:53 AMann,
i have come to interpret a 12th house pluto in several ways. I see it as a symbol for deep longing, maybe even a kind of "core hunger", for total union with life itself, not unlike like the experience of being one with nature. I also see this pluto placement as a sign of empowerment through solitude, or of disempowerment through avoidance of solitude.
amongst other things, pluto represents cycles of regeneration and degeneration of life force in the person. in the 12th house, your energies would tend to regenerate by satiating the core needs for unity and solitude and/or degenerate by avoiding these experiences.
please let me know if any of this rings true to you; thanks. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, June 6, 2006 - 12:27 PMi often times.. find myself going out into social situations and feeling very dissconnected..
i can appear to be connected.. but the times in which i am alone i feel the most connected to the world around me.. i feel that i can pick up on and understand my life better when i am alone.. the realtionships with people where i enjoy mysefl the most are the people who i feel the most alone with.. thats at least what i have said in the past.. and it still rings true today.. alone i like to paint... as a form of connection to myself and everything around me.. i like to reflect on the state of the world as it is... when i was younger i used to have what i would call "by myself parties" these were times where i would read .. paint and think.. and feel so happy and connected..
when i am too social all the time i run my energies thin.. and dip off to restore myself.. i am best when i have just returned from a long envigorating time spent alone.. when i was younger i wanted to be a monk because i thought i would be nice to take a vow of scilence and spend my whole life in solitude.. and then i discovered that there were not too many female monks and this turned me off.. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 8:16 AMLets take into consideration that pluto rules transformation and pluto in Libra represents a soul that is constantly learning to intergrate with others using the Idealistic tendencys of Neptune. If indeed the 12 rules the subcounscious and what I believe to be other planes of existence, then pluto in the 12 would indicate to me that you are a pyshic becon. You pick up thoughts and feelings from others instantly. The sense of being disconnected is the reality of impressions given to you from another plane of existence, your cut off from the norm and regenerating and transforming, evolving in this life a new format of understanding which is the real meaning of the 12 for me. With Pluto representing itself in the 12, then evolutionary wise its next move would be in the first or a continuation of the 12 until matured. Areas of inspiration (12th house pisces) in the subcounscous mind will unfold new realities for you. Often if a major fixed sign and pluto in it and in the 12 can give a person a God like complex. They are never wrong. Its because to much transformation happens on an Idealistic scale that they seem to understand events instantly. Your disconnection is now understood as creating a new reality. A spiritual growth.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 8:40 AMann,
thank you for your candid and astonishing response which fully captures the symbology of your 12th House Pluto in ways that I and/or any other astrologer could never do as much justice to. such an eloquent picture you paint with the "by myself parties" and your most meaingful relations with others, "where i enjoy myself the most are the people who i feel the most alone with".
just amazing, really.
-sherpa -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 7:58 PMwith saturn in libra on my 12th house cusp and neptune in the same sign and house, I really appreciate the observations of both Ann and Brian. I feel a connection between so much (too much?) transformation on an idealistic scale and the appreciation of solitude that ann describes. I can also relate to Saturn in the 12th having a patriarchical, if not god like certainty that ours should be the final word or authority.. -
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Behind the Trembling Veil
Wed, June 7, 2006 - 11:27 PMI liked that thing you've said, Sherpa, about having a 12th house which is most of the chart with the other 11 making up small slices of the pie, or at least that was my recall.
Being someone with Sag 12th house, fully living in the twelfth house, no planets, though the north node and direction I'm headed. As of late I am okay with insanity, no longer feeling the unconscious identification with insanity mostly a strong respect and occasionally amused.
I am very interested in the general unconscious bubbling away with, as in day to day life locating a series of Fellini DVDs. Too great. Read Kafka on the Shore, a major slow and fulfilling lilt into the realm of the unconscious.
This pluto transit of my natal 12th house, remains of interest. For a while, I estimate. As does the 6th Sun Descendent, Gem. Alot of action,
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saw a saying that cracked me up.
A broken clock is right twice a day.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, December 12, 2007 - 6:14 PMI believe some astrologers consider saturn in 12th to be a sign that the person may have had a position of spiritual authority in a past live. Considering that, I think I understand somewhat better why these patriarchical tendencies will be there.
Then again, finality/closedness of opinion is not something I would think of with the hazy 12th house (except of course the life/death cycle and natural ending of things..)
I read in a thread in the 12th house tribe hat we saturnian 12ths also seem to have an odd way of keeping it together in a true crisis. When the world around us crumbles or we feel very threatened we can remain standing, unwavering in a sense. It's a funny sort of tradeoff: there may be these irrational fears and some loneliness involved with saturn in 12th.. but when the shit really hits the fan it's not half as bad as we thought it was going to be. This is definitely true for me.. but I wonder how you and other perceive it?
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 12:44 PMHey Sherpa, how about a Pluto transiting 12th? What to expect...I agonize thinking of the traditional associations....hospital and jail confinement...etc..........any ideas and/or suggestions? -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 1:32 PMCarlos,
This transit is about deep internal house cleaning and soul searching. It can be a difficult time psychologically as the degrees of self-exposure increase, exposure to everything you have been repressing or stuffing about yourself into the "depository of the subconscious" all these years. And so, this marks an era of self-healing and maybe psychotherapy of some kind.
When Pluto transitted through my 12th house, my life as I knew it was over and I badly needed a change of scenery. I decided to set up residence in a small town where nobody knew me for a few years. This was a good move as it forced me into a more honest confrontation with myself without the company of all my previous friends and associates confirming their ideas of me.
Now I don't recommend this tactic for everyone else but it did help make "real" my growing sense of inner isolation by extending it into my environment and when I was most alone, I found the power to change my life.
best of luck to you, Carlos.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 5:57 PMI have a 12th House Pluto and I don't feel any concsious connection with it. The only energies that I may pick up from it are intense emotionalism, a certain intensity/obsession and rage.
I certainly don't expereince the transcdental transformer/reformer energy that I have read about. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 6:08 PMLaconic,
If you'd like more firsthand experience of your 12th House Pluto, take three days off and go camping by yourself. The setting of a totally natural environment acompanied by the experience of solitude should be enough to trigger the potent transformative force that your natal Pluto represents. If you are afraid of being alone, this avoidance of solitude may result in the underlying emotionalism you refer to. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 8:59 PMI kinda don't like 12th house Pluto-ers. Everything comes to them so EASILY... call it jealousy. *grins* -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, June 17, 2006 - 10:27 AM"I kinda don't like 12th house Pluto-ers. Everything comes to them so EASILY... call it jealousy. *grins*"
I don't understand what you mean by everything comes to them so easily..in what aspect..I have a 12 house pluto and I don't think I would agree with that -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, June 17, 2006 - 6:11 PMMe neither. Any kind of stable life for me only came recently...
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 7:33 PMInteresting Sherpa.
I am a loner more from habit than a built in natural propensity as a solitary and being alone only seems to intensify brooding, recriminations, maudlin episodes and more rage.
Meditating with Nature is marvelous, but it seems to activate a profound yearning and desire, never a consistent peace. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 8:04 PMLaconic,
re:" Meditating with Nature is marvelous, but it seems to activate a profound yearning and desire, never a consistent peace."
In my view, the 12th House Pluto represents a deep core longing for communion with the divine, with God, Deity or Source (whatever we wish to call it) and that is what I suspected would be activated in you given enough quality time alone in nature. Solitude, as I'm using it here, differs from lonlieness. It is more the gratifying aspect of being alone or, all-one with everything. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, June 21, 2006 - 6:06 PMI see . Duly noted Sherpa.
My Natal Chart has many afflicted and conflicted dynamics, so there is the thorny matter of trying to handle these energies better and since there is a high level of spritiual angst, conceding to nature is something I have not fully explored.
Thanks for reccomendation.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, June 21, 2006 - 7:37 PMOk.. Behind the Veil.. Is OZ.... ha ha ha well... sorta...
Is it "GOD".. Well Ya! Really in what it suposed to mean.
It is! Ha ha..
Boy am I in a silly mood today,
Must be the Sun out all day.... and so very nice to feel the warmth.
Any way…It's all that we Know, but haven’t seen yet, in the here and now.. right??
All our fears, our wishes, our understandings of what we know...ummm .
Ok..well gee my cat just climbed up to talk to me.. Very apropos, wouldn’t you say to this indulgence?..
12th house…
“GOD”
.. now wouldn’t the older studiers of astrology.. be what? Appalled…LOL ya well. To hell w/ them…LOL
P.S. disclaimer.. I am of no religious sextion.. no I didn’t spell that wrong. Well I did.. but I think I’ll leave it, due to the “do you understand the meaning of the Goddess” theme going one these days. Geees
another thread some time..
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 9:13 PM>I certainly don't expereince the transcdental transformer/reformer energy that I have read about.
hope you don't take this personally........let's just say that the 12 house can be very much about denial...since neptune is about illusion and denial can be almost always based on an illusion....
really... how can you not have a conscious connection to it yet at the same time be aware of your intense emotions, intensity, obsession and rage?
holy crap, if that's not connected/transforming/transcending i don't know what is.... -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 19, 2006 - 7:40 PM>>>>hope you don't take this personally........let's just say that the 12 house can be very much about denial...since neptune is about illusion and denial can be almost always based on an illusion....
really... how can you not have a conscious connection to it yet at the same time be aware of your intense emotions, intensity, obsession and rage?
holy crap, if that's not connected/transforming/transcending i don't know what is.... <<<<<
Certainly Not. I don't take it personally. It could very well be denial. I am not really sure.
For example, I have the Sun and Saturn in the 10th House which portends that I should be some Queen of the world, but I feel nothing of their energies for driving ambition and worldly success in the material sense. I think it is becuase those planets are heavily afflicted.
In any case, Pluto is a dark energy that broods in the 12th House and conjuncts the Ascendant. I don't feel or project a particularly magnetic , charismatic or powerful energy that is Plutonian as is indicated in texts.
Its just a raging, haunting blight.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 10:40 AM... you just don't know how to harness the power. I have met someone who did and... in some ways... he was completely a monster. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, June 22, 2006 - 10:40 AMBUT a monster who always got exactly what he wanted! -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 11:22 AMQuentin, and others that seem to see this "Monster" theme in the 12th house.
Reminder: the 12 house is Pisces house. Neptune. What we don't understand, but Know can be Frightening, and even very dangerous. Though keep in mind all things have two sides…well at least two. For every Monster there is Mother Tarisa, or the , ya know the old wise man on the mountain that you clime up to see and learn much love of magic from. Very 12th I’d say. Sit against a tree and listen to all the sounds of the woods, and connect to Momma. Or close your eyes at the ocean and feel the sound and motion of the movements in the water. Pisces, 12 house..yes yes, much Magic, Power, Very healing Thanks Momma..
I think this is Sherpa’s almost joke of “Trembling veil”.. silly..soo scary right. Till you see and except it. Then it’s just another facet of life and no big deal.
Death just makes room for something new and wonderful. Ill depends on how you look at it.
Though the “Trembling Veil” is very Dramatic is it not.
Car Crash Syndrome….LOL… Did you like that Linda??..
Americans Geeess.. We just love a juicy horror story don’t we. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 11:34 AM
Screeeeeeeeech. Skid. (I can't even bloody drive, but to hell with it.)
Dragon, oh Dragon. Don't get me started, a new blog is brewing even now, I read another J G Ballard this week and that made me pull out my Crash novel again. A friend of mine had to come out to Budapest to view the film because the British authorities all thought that if it was not censored in the UK, it might give too many people ideas (and where's Pryce?)
The Ballard was all about bored retirees on the Costa del Sol being woken into vibrant cultural awareness through using crime to get them going. Then an old friend of mine from Korea told me he intervened when he saw a girl being beaten up - in full of view in a busy shopping mall - by a group of male thugs, but it was their word against his - the police forced him to pay for one of the youths' damaged cell phone. I kid you not, though he thought it was more Clockwork Orange than Ballard.
Maybe there is your Mars Saturn for you.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 11:35 AM... Mother Teresa was no saint, honey.
And the monster aspect has less to do with the 12th house than Pluto...
But I guess that is what happens when one assumes they understand everything about everything instead of asking questins.
Having a 12th house moon has made me aware of two things: 1) Sometimes, I know things and I don't know how I know however, being that I could be wrong, I will sit with my knowledge until I know it or ask questions 2) I am probably a lot more careful than most other people which makes me particularly touchy when other people are not.
I am going to digress because I am having a Lunar Return right now and I am feeling a bit... like leveling people with my mouth, so I am goning to back off. However, you misunderstand and misapprpropriate my words and language and I do not appreciate it one bit. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 3:09 PMQuentin: no conflict ment, just discussing, & relating my thoughts. I don't mean to come off as though I know anything. Just me opininon, till it changes, as I stated.
Peace friend, And I hope we both come through what ever pains we both might feel in our lives the better for it.
Pluto the "Monster" Sure the hell feels that way sometimes don't it. Miles and miles of statement stating thus. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, June 25, 2006 - 9:34 PMI was feeling snarly -- don't worry. Yer still mah sexy Cancer friend who is hella interesting.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, December 3, 2007 - 5:20 AMHa I thought that 12th house Pluto had the power to take over the world and the wisdom not to! -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sun, December 9, 2007 - 5:26 PMAmeliaaaa,
You are so right !
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 23, 2006 - 5:25 PMThat is probably a fair assessment.
I do not handle my own anger or those of others very well. Or Confrontation. The whole ticking time bomb thing. Trying to keep the rage in check of which it manifests into something insidious. USually poisooning the air and keeping people away.
It may have a lot to do with the strong Libran/Cancer influence. I don't know.
Harnessing may be key as well as contemplation, of which I have little patience. I am just recovering from Saturn Return and there are many things that I need to mend.
Thanks.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, June 23, 2006 - 5:54 PMThe best way I can describe it for myself-- and I also have some Cancer/Libra influences in my chart like you--- is a quiet unassuming power.. A power that doesn't always surface, and not always known to others-but yet exists inside you. I don't have Pluto in 12th as you do, but I have it in the first. When one thinks of power, they think of a strong, driving force, yet power doesn't always have to manifest itself in that way...Do you know what I mean? You may not see it until later in life, when you look back or encounter things that make you realize the power you have had in you all along. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, June 24, 2006 - 4:59 PMVery Interesting Bella. Yes what you say makes sense. Fairly New to Astrology, so any interpreation is helpful.
I do feel rootless. Powerless, so a 12th House Pluto conjuncting the Ascendant has no real meaning to me, becuase of the sense that I may not own my own power as you inferred.
There is a double T Square that is Cancer/Libran. Moon Conjunt Uranus and the Ascendant in the First House, all in Libra. Sun and Saturn Conjunct Midheaven all in Cancer, etc etc.
So there is a Cardinal Restlessness and the Oppossing Heavy energies in Heavy planets makes it harder to integrate and live with peaceably. And Confidently.
I would also tend to agree that I may not be able to deal with it until I am a little older, since it is very difficult to uncover a roadmap and create a solution now. I cannot deal with it now, becuase I tend to shut down and push people away with my negavitity.
I have had intimates tell me that I am inherently inflexible and selfish. Perhaps that is Pluto or Uranus in the First which makes it so.
Thanks for the insight.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 26, 2006 - 7:37 PMHello, all! Me.... I have FOUR planets in my 12th house.... Mercury and Venus conjunct at 24 degrees Leo, AND Uranus plus Pluto conjunct at 12 deg Virgo and 14 deg Virgo, respectively.... and I have a 20 degree Virgo Ascendant. I'm learning all sorts of stuff from books or websites that discuss how my particular planets or asteroids act in the signs and houses they fall in, as well as the aspects (or angles). This is a great Tribe!
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 26, 2006 - 8:32 PMLATE POST
Leo fills my 12th house in Mercury
I have no idea what that means.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, June 26, 2006 - 10:17 PMThanks for the lantern- tho' we don't always like the lights too bright here in the 12th house caverns, lol.
My Sun & Mercury, both in Pisces, are both 12th house. They're actually pretty happy there. My Venus in Aries is also in the 12th house, & that feels like a challenging fit sometimes. Often it manifests as lovers being...er.... surprised.
I'm a Renewal Jew, & have also been practicing Witchcraft for over 30 yrs, since my early teens. I've always seen ritual as a doorway, not the endpoint, so I guess I fit the comfort w/ a bit of chaos thing quite well. My practice is actually quite shamanistic these days; very relaxed. Floating in the collective unconcious feels like home to me.
I enjoy community ritual as a unifier, & a way of marking time & passages, & I've done lots of ritual theater. My Moon & Jupiter in Sag are 8th house, so this mix of public service & fun, & private profound & liberating experience seems about right. But all my most profound, deeply transforming spiritual experiences have come to me while alone w/ Nature.
I'm an artist & a poet, I need LOTS of alone time, & I've been nocturnal all my life. I also have a what's diagnosed as ADD w/o the hyper part; to me it just means I have prisim vision, & some organizational challenges.
We are only victims when forced to fit into slots ill-suited for us. If we break free, the possibilities are myriad. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, November 11, 2006 - 3:02 AM~*~
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 4:55 PMThank you so much for writing this. I have a Leo moon in the 12th house, and everything I hear about the 12th is so negative and destructive, and kind of scares me. I do need solitude to fully access and experience my emotions... which I think sometimes leads people to think I don't have them. The scary thing is, I don't completely mind that. The best kept secrets are the ones nobody suspects you're hiding. (Why yes, I am also a Scorpio. Why do you ask?)
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 9:54 PMi am not quite as advanced and knowledgable as most of this tribe's members so forgive me if this question is a stupid one...
hehe, i havent completely wrapped my head around the houses and how that works and what each one means..
so some people have 12th house planets and some dont?
(i am about to go refer to my astro.com potrait. and see whats going on in my houses...)
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 10:00 PMhmm ok..
my 12th house is in pisces. placidus house positions.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Thu, November 29, 2007 - 11:32 PMI LOVE THIS TOPIC
I am so thankful to be reading this, i love how everyone has something different to say, i really feel like i am learning so much more that way, instead of reading out of a book, written by one person. AWESOME :)
I am curious personally because I've never been able to tell if i have planets in the 12 or not because my house system is intercepted. i have neptune and jupiter in capricorn in the 11th as shown in my astro.com chart, yet capricorn rules my 12th house, and sagittarius rules my 11th. can i interpret those planets as sharing the 12th as well? -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, November 30, 2007 - 8:04 AMChristmas,
I also love the topic and discussions. It is a wonderful resource. Yes, Astrology Tribe used to be like this...alot. Do searches on subjects of interest, you will be suprised!
However, unfortunatly it seems the most astute participants have removed themselves and scattered. A few remain and visit from time to time...
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, November 30, 2007 - 10:58 AMI found Sherpa's interpretation to be the most complete and accurate for 12th house planetary placements and I have been searching for over 25 yrs for information on this. I have Pluto in Virgo (retrograde) in the 12th conjunct the Asc and Uranus in Leo (retrograde) in the 12th. The (2) main issues that have pervaded my life is:
a) When I serve/help people to excess - I later resent it because I feel unappreciated, taken for granted and feel imprisioned to keep on keep on doing for these same people. (Pluto in Virgo)
b) Felt the need for freedom but never chose the path to allow it whether it be freedom of expressing myself or living alone (Uranus in Leo).
The aforementioned is particularly hard in terms of freedom because I have 5 planets in fire signs - 3 of which are Sag (Sun, Jupiter and Mars) and the Moon is in Aries (8th). All freedom loving planets so yeah, the desire for freedom will always be a part of me.
How I manage to handle it is: I do what I want without people's approval - discreetly - if need be.
If I don't get equal exchange for my services/help - then I stop it - period.
The one writer mentioned about the 8th house connection with the 12th fits me in that my Moon in Aries in the 8th tells me "TRANSFORM your perspective - which will change how I feel towards the 12th house maladies or have an emotional breakdown - MY choice. So, those that have 12th and 8th house planets - it is a calling to transform or else you are your own worst enemy! Martyrdom serves noone.
Hope this helps. -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Fri, November 30, 2007 - 11:49 PMI have venus, uranus, saturn, neptune, & sun in the 12th house.
My life has been inside a room, i feel locked sometimes but i do like solitude.
I can blend in with people yet have my own world devoid of anyone else but me.
I search for a sign, a meaningful coincidence - for people who are like me, and after years of searching I've come to know that the only way for us 12th house folks to feel at ease with our solitude is to share with each other. We have to talk about our experiences because they're in many cases the same.
I dont think complete solitude is the answer to enlightenment nor satisfaction. We have to team up with people just like us. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, December 1, 2007 - 2:08 AMI like the way you both explained your 12th house. My son has 2 (sun merc)planets and default Lilith (no idea which one) in 12th, in Leo. Leo is also his asc. He used to be so fiery. outgoing, nonstop fireball of energy. Ham and nothing shy about him. Yet, since 2005 I noticed a change in him, wanting a bit more solitude and into creating videos (behind the scenes things). Another words less sports and more creating, although he'll still watch the games...lol Another thing, he had a major illness(Cancer/leukemia) when he was a baby and recovered fully this year. Spent seven years in and out of hospital (most clinic visits for checkups) and still for another few more, for checkups.
Have you any thoughts on 12th house (institution/hospital)?
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Sat, December 1, 2007 - 3:31 AM12th house is the house of institutions and hospitals -oftentimes when people have something in the 12th house there is a story to that effect but not always . creating videos (behind the scenes things). Another words less sports and more creating, although he'll still watch the game . This sounds descriptive of a 12th house leo sun where is neptune in his chart ?
I have a 12th house kid with a Leo moon it is interesting how neptune filters leo traits. The wonderous thing about Neptune is we can all get lost into it through some means or another . My ex hsuband is a Pisces, an artist and muscian -he would disapear for long hours at a time -once we were at my parents and he just disapeared for hours and my mother a Libra sun aries moon happened to stumble across him outside -he was crouched down behind her raised brick flower boxed watching a spider build its web. She walked up to me and said would you just look at what he is doing -so I looked and saw this huge spider making this complex web that was being made, along with various dead things stuck to its maze and then she said in such a wispering innocent soft spoken way to me -he is captivated by the spiders web and sees things in a different way than some folks do .
kate -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 4:50 AMThanks Kate, for explaining this....Have to look up to see where Neptune is, in his chart. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 5:31 AMOhh wow! Neptune is in later degrees of Capricorn in 6th house. So it's opposition Sun 0 degrees Leo in 12th. Not certain, but 6th house is related to health issues (cancer), right....and as I mentioned since he was 3 he's been in and out of the "hospital" 12th.
Do you think that's one way of looking at it?
(Just to clarify.....the first few years after he was diagnosed he and I basically lived at the hospital...now he's 11 and he visits hospital once a year)
Another thing...maybe related to Merc in 12th? He's incredbly smart....while in the hospital and being tested for many things they noted he had superior learning skills...he was 3 and had a learning capacity of that of second graders(7), and an extreme perfectionist.
Just throwing throwin this out there trying to make sense of some things....and maybe some here can relate.
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, December 3, 2007 - 7:19 AMSince Mars is about ambition, drive, aggressiveness (possibly), I'm not sure what it's traits in the 12th house would be?
I know someone with Mars in Cancer in the 12th. How do you relate solitude to someone's drive? Just curious. -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 5:17 AMCatmeow,
Mars cancer in 12trh house -well Mars is greatly challenged in the cancer and mars in the 12th house really depends on what is happening elsewhere -what is the story theme with their moon and first house ?
kate -
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 5:21 AMlunar cycle -a bakers dozen and the 13th floor on an elevator -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Tue, December 4, 2007 - 6:34 AMHi, Kate,
1st house in Leo has no planets residing there. Their moon is in the 9th house of Pisces, trining Mars with Mercury. Mars is also opposite Saturn in the 6th house of Capricorn. Lilith is sitting there in the 12th. With Mars and Lilith there, I originally took this to mean that they had dark secrets related to their actions. That proved true. However, any other meanings to Mars being there, I'd be greatly interested in as I find it unusual to see Mars in the 12th.
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Unsu...
Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Mon, December 3, 2007 - 7:28 AMThere is room in the Zodiac and the cycles of the moon to actually have 13 houses. Since Scorpio covers about 45 of the degrees of the Zodiac there could be another system that allows for each house to have 28 day cycles and add another constellation usually nudged in between Scorpio and and Libra. There have been calls for this type of Zodiac to be used but astrology is so anecdotal (sp?) that the traditional ideas take years to change. My favorite analogy of 12 house energy is the behind the scenes person. It can signify anything from a stage hand, to the Hermit,(the age of Pisces personified) to the Wizard of Oz.
And I think Roman astrology uses the Moon as the main luminary to describe the individual rather than the Sun -
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Re: THE 12TH HOUSE: What's Behind the Trembling Veil ???
Wed, December 12, 2007 - 5:38 PMAren't you referring to Ophiuchus here?
He is the serpent-bearer, the 'hidden' sign (at least to the sidereal and tropical zodiacs used in astrology) located between scorpio and sagittarius. (this is quite an interesting read: www.geocities.com/astrology...uchus.htm)
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