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Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

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Each of us possess guiding qualities and innate skills
bestowed to help us fulfill our special destiny as individuals and as purposeful members of humanity. But conditions pervading in our schools, offices and factories, and the conforming pressures of society, usually conspire to force us to into predetermined molds, with little regard for our special faculties and talents, unless they happen to be useful in the business world. As a result, our inner faculties — our individual guiding compass that helps us navigate our own special way through both the calm and the stormy seas of life to our ultimate, fullest destination — is often inadequately developed, or family and social conditions may predispose us to ignore, suppress or distrust our guiding voice.
In a less abstract and more practical way, each of us have a stock of innate special talents and skills which we may develop and exploit in life, or which may lie largely dormant or latent, flashing forth at moments of great need, crisis or inspiration. Most of us have a knack for something. One person may have a knack for getting along with people and self-promotion, another a special gift for teaching, counseling and helping others, and yet another may have a creative talent which is best expressed working alone in her studio or at the keyboard of her computer. Yet few of us are fortunate enough to find ourselves involved in the sort of work or study where we both naturally excel and find personal fulfillment and happiness.
If you want to get closer in tune with your inner guiding faculties, or if you're one of the many who are frustrated with your current line of work and are not quite sure where your special skills lie, or if you are considering a career change, the easy-to-use astrological technique presented here will help you both tune into and enhance your inner guiding voice and discover your innate skills and faculties and how to best apply them.
According to humanistic astrology, your entire birth-chart — the natal horoscope — is a seed-pattern of your birth potential, and any thorough interpretation of an astrological chart requires tuning into the chart "as a whole," as well as a consideration of how the individual planets — the ten fundamental variables of astrology – fit into the whole chart. Traditional, old-fashioned, natal astrology – which is, unfortunately, as strong and visible today as ever — usually places most of its attention on the signs occupied by the planets and the connections existing between one planet and another (the astrological aspects), with loads of baggage attached to where the "malefics" (the "bad guys" of astrology, the planets Mars and Saturn) are placed and how they hook-up with other planets. On the other hand, humanistic astrology shows that there are no good or bad planets, signs or aspects. Without Mars — the principle of mobilization – we couldn't act or move! Without Saturn – the principle of form and definition – we would be formless blobs of "mostly water" lacking individuality and a distinct function or character of being.

Humanistic astrology focuses on the core factors of an astrological chart, avoiding an overload of secondary and tertiary data and the side-issues specious data sidetrack us into obsessing about. Humanistic astrology has developed lots of simple and easy-to-use procedures, all dealing with core principles and issues, which allow us to learn and discover a very great deal which is usually entirely overlooked by or unknown to the mainstream, traditional astrologer. The procedure we'll explore here concerns the determination and interpretation of your Guiding Planet or Skill Symbol.
From ancient times, the planet crossing the eastern horizon — the astrological Ascendant — immediately before the Sun has symbolized the practical channel through which solar will and vitality is expressed. The ancients called this body the "Planet of Oriental Appearance" because it appears in the eastern sky immediately before the Sun — that is, the planet rising directly before the Sun. Today, we refer to the Planet of Oriental Appearance at your birth time as your Guiding Planet or your Skill Symbol, because it represents both your inner guiding principle and your innate skills and special faculties, and how both may be best realized, enhanced and applied. Your Skill Symbol shows you how to best handle and cope with the demands and opportunities of daily life in a skillful, productive and fulfilling manner, and where your inherent skills and practical abilities lie. As your Guiding Planet, the planet rising immediately before the Sun symbolizes the faculties and inner senses scouting your path ahead, or your ability to navigate the best course to self-realization and fulfillment.
In other words, as Skill Symbol the Planet of Oriental Appearance is seen in its more mundane aspect, as abilities and skills that can be tapped and applied for practical results; as Guiding Planet, the same body shows it more abstract aspect, operating on a more intuitive or instinctual level, and less in terms of immediate practical application than in terms of one’s destiny or life as a whole. And usually the balance is more one than the other, so we are often challenged to integrate both sides — the practical and the intuitive — of the planet’s principles and functions.
Finding your Planet of Oriental Appearance is easy. If you have a copy of your birth-chart, simply look to see which planet immediately precedes the Sun in a clockwise direction. If you haven't gotten around to having your birth-chart calculated, you can find your Oriental Planet by referring to an ephemeris for the day and year of your birth. Your Oriental Planet is the planet immediately preceding the Sun in the zodiac. For example, if the ephemeris shows your Sun as 22 degrees Scorpio and Neptune is shown as 10 degrees Libra, Neptune would be your Planet of Oriental Appearance — if there are no other planets between 10 degrees Libra and 22 degrees Scorpio. The depictions which follow describe each of the nine planets (the Sun is never in Oriental Appearance) when acting as a Guiding Planet and Skill Symbol.



Mercury Guiding Planet

A true mental type, you have a special knack for thinking and talking your way through challenges and problems. In meeting everyday experiences, your mind is your best guide. You do best when you thoroughly think things out beforehand, though you may have a tendency to think and talk too quickly, dismissing as irrelevant much of what people try to tell you or skipping over much of the information and experience which comes your way. Relying so much on thinking and talking, you may too easily fall into the "all talk and no action" syndrome.
If your Skill Symbol is Mercury, you work best under conditions of your own devise, though you are no doubt a quick study at mastering new systems and technology. Efficiency, reliability, self-mastery, and the ability to think and communicate clearly are your strong points. On the other hand, gossiping and a tendency to be led astray by others could prove damaging. You excel at mental work of all types, especially work that relies heavily on written or spoken communications, computers, technology and telephones. Having Mercury as your Skill Symbol doesn't mean you're smarter than anybody else, or even that you are a profound thinker. You might simply have a skill for processing data and information and using telephones and electronics.
As Guiding Planet, Mercury suggests inner guidance in the form of an intuitive sense of the connections and associations existing between people and things. As Guiding Planet, Mercury acts in a more electric, instinctual and intuitive sense than it does in its aspect as Skill Planet. Yet, true to the dual nature of Mercury, the highly active mental and analytical activities of Mercury may get in the way when it comes to tuning into the more abstract, guiding qualities of the planet. Surface noise and distractions may first need quieting with the help of relaxation, contemplation and meditation.

An Oriental Appearing Mercury is found in the birth-chart of Year 2000 presidential candidate Al Gore, and it is also featured in the natal chart of the Dalai Lama of Tibet, whose Oriental Gemini Mercury helps him communicate and promote the message of Buddhism and the plight of the Tibetan people worldwide. Friedrich Nietzsche, one of the most influential writers and intellectuals of his time is another example of Mercury Oriental, and so are artists Andy Warhol and Paul Cezanne. Mercury Oriental seems well-integrated as both Guiding Planet and Skill Symbol in the natal chart of Fritjof Capra, the atomic physicist who saw connections between quantum physics and ancient mysticism, starting a movement of sorts with the publication of the superb book The Tao of Physics. The Oriental Planet alone doesn’t tell the whole story, and we always need to consider how it fits into the chart as a whole. Added insights may be gained by considering aspects the Oriental Planet forms with other natal planets. In Capra’s natal chart, Oriental Mercury is septile (the destiny-directed, possibly psychic, aspect) natal Uranus (the planet of discovery, invention and transformation) and the south lunar node, both of which are near the Ascendant in the twelfth house of hidden side of things.
Marilyn Monroe was born with Mercury less than four degrees ahead of the Sun. While she doesn’t epitomize the "brainy female," she was very much attracted to highly intelligent men, accounting for her nearly delusional attraction to Robert F. Kennedy and her statement that Albert Einstein was the sexiest man she had ever met. In instances, which as Marilyn’s, when the Oriental Planet is very near the Sun, the planet rising immediately before the Oriental Planet may assume some of the Skill Symbol’s functions, and some degree of disassociation, or a lack of integration, might be seen. In the birth-chart of Marilyn Monroe, the planet Venus rises before Mercury and about forty degrees ahead of both the Sun and Mercury. While Mercury seemed to act well — at least in part — in her instance as Guiding Planet, leading her and attracting her to highly intelligent men, Venus (which is trine natal Neptune in the first house) seems to have usurped the role of Skill Symbol, leading her to fame as an immortal sex symbol and tragic female.
In another way, when the Oriental Planet is situated very near the Sun, it may operate in a rather subjective manner and the person may, in some capacity, seem to epitomize or idealize its characteristics. While Marilyn Monroe idealized Mercurial men, Allen Ginsberg (born when Mercury was Oriental, only one degree from the Sun, both in Gemini) epitomized certain Mercurial qualities — talkative, very quick-minded, analytical, nerdy, and an excellent promoter of his own and others ideas and work. Yet he is best known for his work of poetry (more a Vesusian or a Neptunian form then Mercurial) and his radical (Uranian) politics. In Ginsberg's birth-chart, Venus is the first planet to rise before Oriental Mercury, and it is forty zodiacal degrees from the two. Additionally, the Sun and Mercury form a quintile (talent, skill) aspect to Uranus on the Ascendant and another quintile to Neptune (music, poetry, drugs and mysticism), and a bi-quintile between Neptune and Uranus completes a triangular configuration of quintile-based aspects with the Sun and Mercury pair at the apex.

Because they are situated within earth’s orbit, Mercury and Venus are always near the sun in the sky, and therefore the two planets are more often seen in Oriental Appearance than any other planet. Additionally much depends on whether Mercury’s apparent motion is direct or retrograde (see the section on The Four Faces of Mercury).
Mercury retrograde is seen in only about ten percent of all astrological charts, and when it figures as Oriental Planet it often bestows prophetic qualities and a future-oriented outlook. People with Mercury retrograde as Guiding Planet are often tend-setters, ahead of their time or misunderstood in their lifetime, but honored by future generations. Examples included the visionary, futurist writer Aldous Huxley, who was one of the most intellectual men of his generation, and Helen Gurley Brown, the promethean new woman who helped create the sexual revolution in the pages of her Cosmopolitian magazine.



Venus Guiding Planet



You are very concerned with how others value you and all that you do. As a Venus Skill Symbol person, you may feel impelled to leave a personal impression on all you touch, hoping others will recognize, accept, value and praise your originality or worthiness. Your special skills are those requiring artistry, perception, personal charm and grace, evaluation and judgment. In meeting the demands of daily life, you do well when maintaining your emotional cool and relying on your intuition and judgment in seeking a creative solution.
With Venus as your Guiding Planet, you do well when you allow your instincts and personal values guide you through practical life. Yet at times there may be a conflict between the preservation of your personal values and a need to be praised and treated as someone special, especially when material rewards, comfort, security and luxury figure as incentives.
To achieve happiness, you need be especially careful concerning career, employment and personal relationships. Just any job won't do — your high expectations and sensitivity to criticism, combined with a need for creative expression and a desire to be appreciated and praised, may place you at odds with a conventional career. If you feel frustrated with your current career, a change to a career requiring creativity, judgment or evaluation may be the remedy. Similarly with your choice of companionship and mates. You need to be appreciated and loved, praised and respected, by those closest to you. Because Venus is the first planet within earth’s orbit, in astrology it symbolizes all inwardly directed energies and activities, and in today’s intensely self-centered society, it may be too easy for the Oriental Venus person to slip into the self-absorption of narcissism — the "it’s all about me" syndrome. So, appreciation of others and the development of social graces should go hand-in-hand with self-respect and self-worth.

It’s no surprise that Venus Oriental figures in the birth-charts of many artists in search of new artistic values and ideals, even though their individual styles and biographies often differ radically. Vincent van Gogh, Pablo Picasso and Salvador Dali all have Venus as Skill Symbol. In the instance of van Gogh, the Sun is unaspected, with Venus in close conjunction with Mars. Picasso’s natal chart features Venus in Libra, rising well before a Scorpio Sun, septile Mercury rising well after the Sun. The birth-chart of Dali shows Sun and Venus in Taurus, with Moon at the Midheaven, revealing an artist with an intense need to be "original" and earn vast sums of money to satisfy an avaricious wife. Modern artist Joan Miro was born with Venus Oriental very close to the north lunar node and the Sun. Here Venus is perhaps overshadowed by the Sun, with some the Guiding Planet’s attributes shifted to Mercury, which rises twenty degrees before Venus. And, indeed, Miro’s work has a fluid Mercurial quality and his approach is distinctly mental, even if, in a sense, surreal.
Venus Oriental also figures in the birth charts of poets and writers dealing with issues of art, values, culture and society. Joseph Campbell’s birth-chart has Venus Oriental, trine Neptune in the ninth house and bi-quintile Moon in the tenth house. Poet Arthur Rimbaud has the Sun and Venus Oriental in Libra, and poet, social satirist and wit Oscar Wilde was also born with the Sun and Venus Oriental in Libra. Venus Oriental is also seen in the charts of "macho men," such as Ernest Hemingway. Pornographer Larry Flynt has Venus Oriental close to a Scorpio Sun, with Mars, also in Scorpio, rising five-degrees before Venus — a revealing configuration. Yasir Arafat, the leader of the Palestinian people, has Venus Oriental rising forty-one degrees before the Sun, and it is very near Pluto and close to the Ascendant, suggesting his total dedication and identification with the values and needs of his people.
A number of women who have made their way as original, creative and independent voices in the world were born when Venus was Oriental. The natal chart of singer Alanis Morissette features Venus in Taurus (an excellent symbol for a vocalist) rising thirty-nine degrees before her Gemini Sun. The exact opposition between her natal Moon in the second degree of Scorpio and Venus Oriental seems to express itself well through her edgy lyrics portraying female angst unleashed. Women of rock Chrissie Hydne and Courtney Love were both born when Venus retrograde was Oriental. Chrissie’s Venus forms a bi-quintile aspect to Jupiter, and Courtney’s Venus forms a bi-quintile to Neptune in the first house.



Moon Guiding Planet

You have a special knack for practicality and keeping things running smoothly. The busy teacher, housekeeper and the resourceful manager are examples of this type — their day is full of interruptions, adjustments and problem-solving. You can best handle situations by going straight into the heart of the matter and gently taking control. Your forte is an ability to cope with a constant stream of demands and quickly changing priorities. Moon Skill Symbol people are often do well in the fields of education and counseling. On the other hand, you may be prone to obsessiveness, over-work and criticism, tendencies which may be balanced or moderated by keeping the big picture and your ultimate goals in the forefront.
As Guiding Planet, the Moon symbolizes a reflective mind highly sensitive to everything in the environment and to the ever-changing flow of life and events. It places us in touch with our root power, which has a natural source, grounded in nature and natural activity. Yet the busy managerial and organizing functions of Moon as Skill Symbol, or its tendency to focus on the needs and requirements of others, may get in the way of tuning into your own needs and the larger issues and currents operating beneath the pressing demands of your often quickly changing mundane life. To serve us as a Guiding Planet, the Moon asks one to schedule quiet time for meditation or for a peaceful and relaxing nature walk.

The birth-chart of novelist Henry Miller features Moon Oriental, rising about seventy degrees before the Sun, in the seventh house of relatedness and conjunct the south lunar node, Mars, and Uranus. Henry Miller spent much of his later years living a simple life in a cabin on the remote Big Sur coast of California. His banned books did much to compensate for the puritanical shame of the body and sexuality which played such a large part in the American morality of his time.
The liberator of India, Mahandas Gandhi, was born when the Sun was unaspected (humanistic astrologers use somewhat tight orbs, revealing a clearer picture), and much of his solar power seems to have expressed through the Oriental Moon in the tenth house (politics and public life) Leo. With Moon as his Guiding Planet, Gandhi was able to sense precisely what was needed at the moment and he was utterly dedicated to his destiny of winning independence for his people. As Skill Symbol, the Moon symbolizes the organizational and gentle managerial skills, and a capacity for tuning into the needs and abilities of anyone, required to unify a very large and diverse nation and to gear its people to act in unison for a common goal.
The natal horoscope of J. Krishnamurti shows Moon Oriental, but a very great distance from the Sun, 145 degrees, forming a bi-quintile aspect between the two. The chart as a whole depicts a sharp "see-saw" pattern, comprising two opposed planetary groups, with the Sun and the Moon acting as a member of a planetary pair "enclosing" each of the two groups. Additionally, the two groups are situated one above and one below the horizon. Indeed, from the chart’s planetary gestalt, the Moon seems to be in too strong contrast to the Sun to figure as a scout or guide, too much space seems to "separate" the two bodies. And Krishnamutri’s somewhat rigid, mentally crystallized philosophy and outlook, which seems much rooted in negativism and denial, tends to speak from a natal Taurus Mercury conjunct the Nadir, rising seven degrees after the Sun, and from a natal Saturn retrograde in the ninth house. Even if the Oriental Moon seems estranged and not fully functional as Guiding Planet, much of Krishnamurti’s deeper side suggests he was connected with it beneath the surface. For instance, Krishnamurti was always very much interested in education and nourishing the mind and spirit, which ties in with Moon as Skill Symbol. He established several innovated schools worldwide, and founded Happy Valley School in Ojai Valley with his friend Aldous Huxley. Krishnamurti also had a deep appreciate of and trust in women, and in spite of his guru, holy man role, he conducted a secret thirty-year liaison with a woman, a relationship he evidently found so fulfilling that he wanted to continue it into his later years.
The birth-chart of early woman of rock Stevie Nicks features an Oriental Moon in the tenth house rising a great distance before a second house Gemini Sun. She wrote a song titled "Sister of the Moon" in the late-70s when her fame was of the first magnitude and she epitomized the "witchy woman." Stephanie's Oriental Moon is opposite natal Venus on the nadir, and natal Neptune near the Descendant link-up with the two to form a T-Square.



Mars Guiding Planet

You are the sort person who can, through sheer force of will, accomplish whatever you set out to do. Your best method is to devote yourself entirely to your goal, and you are seldom satisfied with partial success. Obstacles and difficulties are best met boldly, with determination and a massive mobilization of energy. Mars Skill Symbol people often find success and happiness in the fields of sales, promotion and athletics. But regardless of their particular vocation, they often reach a high degree of success through hard work and a knack for the sort of publicity and self-promotion that marks them as "stand-outs."
As a Mars Skill Symbol type, endurance, productivity, drive, self-promotion and an ability to get things done are powerful assets. But a natural tendency toward Martian ruthlessness may undo some of your best efforts — your worse enemies may be those to whom you have been insensitive.
As Guiding Planet, Mars bestows one with a keen and uncanny sense of the "unseen hand" at work behind the scene of any situation, as well as a natural ability to manipulate political forces and public opinion. It symbolizes insight into the motives of others, which is more like a gut feeling than a reasoned-out conclusion, and the ability to see trends in business, politics, culture and fashion before they become apparent.

John Lennon was born with Mars Oriental, close to Neptune and forming a close trine to an Aquarian Moon. His force of personality, promotional abilities, and sense of big social trends about to break forcefully upon the scene allowed him and his bandmates to rise from humble origins to realize success of a magnitude never before achieved by a musician group. Another English rock star to attain international fame and fortune, David Bowie overcame youthful shyness to attain huge and lasting success spanning a number of image metamorphoses and shifts of musical style and direction. A master of self-promotion, Bowie was born with twelfth house Oriental Mars rising less than one degree before the Sun, with Mercury rising eight degrees before it.
The birth chart of Lenny Bruce, the very important and highly controversial comedian of the 1960s, also shows Mars Oriental. In his instance, Mars Oriental (along with natal Sun) is at the apex of a T-Square, formed with an exact opposition of Jupiter, first house Capricorn, and Pluto, seventh house Cancer — a politically volatile and perceptive configuration which vented itself through the forceful Oriental Mars in the ninth house of big social issues, the legal system and the media. Through the medium of comedy as an art, whether performed on stage on through a number of highly-publicized legal cases, Bruce made it his function to expose and ridicule the prejudices and injustices that figured so largely in post-WWII America.
Another ‘60s icon, Janis Joplin was born when Mars was Oriental, rising thirty-four degrees before the Sun. On stage and in her vocal power, she released an unmatched personal force, and she rose from obscurity to international fame overnight not only by the force of personality and will, but also by a gut feeling about how to ride emergent energies. In her birth-chart, Mars Oriental forms a tight octile (or semi-square) aspect to Mercury retrograde and tri-septiles to Uranus and to Pluto. The controversial approach of social historian and writer Camille Paglia reveals her natal Mars Oriental. Hard, edgy and not particularly popular among feminists, Paglia’s Mars forms a square to edgy Uranus and a trine Jupiter.



Jupiter Guiding Planet

Your skills and resources are many, and you have a knack for getting things done simply by taking things as they come. You have a social sense and possess a natural skill for handling people and social activities. Jupiter Skill Symbol people often seek prestigious careers, they typify senior executives, lawyers, politicians and people in positions of social and economic power. When in a tough spot, you do well to keep your spirits high and rely on friends and personal resources. You work best with others and on tasks which, while requiring a wide range of abilities, do not necessarily require a high degree of skill in a single area. Your generosity, social ease and ability to delegate are great assets, yet there might be a bit of a snob or money-chaser beneath the finesse.
Jupiter Guiding Planet denotes a capacity for tuning into and seeing the big social, philosophical, religious, economic and political picture, and an ability to sense where one best fits for the good of society, or where one is most likely to prosper. Often conventional in their aspirations, Jupiter Oriental types are frequently driven to seek wealth and positions of power and status, and self-awareness and a deep questioning of motive may be needed to keep the highly ambitious aspect of Jupiter Skill Symbol in balance with the social responsibility implicit in Jupiter Guiding Planet.

As expected, Jupiter Oriental is frequently seen in the birth-charts of individuals concerned with religious and social issues who find themselves playing a public role in the promotion of their cause or beliefs. The natal horoscope of Victoria Woodhull, one of the first promoters of sexual freedom and woman's liberation, features Jupiter Oriental on the Ascendant rising less than a degree before the Sun and forming a destiny-driven septile to the Moon in the second house Scorpio. Mercury Prometheus retrograde rises seven degrees before Jupiter and the Sun, perhaps compensating for some of Oriental Jupiter’s conventionality. The whole package suits one of the most promethean women of all time. Woodhull was not only a very visible political activist who once stood for the office of U.S. President, she was also a spiritualist, one of the first "channel writers" and a natural food advocate.
Dancer Ruth St. Denis was also born with Jupiter Oriental, rising twelve degrees before the Sun, with Mercury Prometheus retrograde rising six degrees before Jupiter. Oriental Jupiter forms a "yod" configuration with the Moon and Saturn. St. Denis held a highly visible and prestigious position in society during the early decades of the 20th Century and was recognized, along with Isadora Duncan, as one of the two leading "modern" dancers of the time. With Ted Shawn, she established a prestigious school of dance in Hollywood. Much involved with neo-theosophy and activities at nearby Krotona Institute of Theosophy, St. Denis spent more time lecturing her students — the group included the first truly modern dancer, Martha Graham — on neo-theosophy and oriental philosophy than on teaching dance.
William Blake, the 18th Century painter and mystic whose work shows highly romantic, mystical and religious imagery, was born when Jupiter was Oriental in Sagittarius. Born with Jupiter Guiding Planet, Albert Einstein possessed a strong social conscience and a profound religious, mystical and philosophical streak – he even keep a copy of Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine on his desk for inspiration. Maria Callas, one of the most successful and accomplished women her generation, was born with the Sun on the Ascendant, and with Jupiter rising eight degrees earlier.
An intense need to win and succeed, and to gain worldwide status as "the best," is one aspect of Jupiter Oriental. The extraordinary birth-chart of champion figure-skater Tonya Harding features Jupiter Oriental rising three degrees before the Sun, with Venus retrograde rising two degrees ahead of Jupiter, and the three planets are in tight opposition to a conjunction of the Moon and Saturn retrograde, which stands alone as a "singleton pair."



Saturn Guiding Planet

You have a knack for defining systems and making things function well and long. Saturn Skill Symbol people often exhibit an even greater capacity for work, self-discipline and for overcoming hardship and obstacles than the Mars Skill Symbol type. You can best achieve your highly focused goals through sheer perseverance and through a profound understanding of the nature of people and things. When faced with difficulties, it is best to hold fast and study the situation in detail. You perform well when undertaking clearly defined projects in a highly ordered and structured manner or environment. Administrative qualities are strong, and others may look to you for leadership, protection or mentorship.
With Saturn Oriental, you may have an air of authority, and at times you exercise it too harshly. Though your knowledge and experience may be considerable, and acquired the hard way, it is wise to avoid rigidity and patronizing others.
As Guiding Planet, Saturn reveals the structural patterns defining situations and behavior. The strong sense of social order and authority associated with Saturn Skill Symbol may incline people born with Saturn Oriental to see society and relationships in a strictly hierarchical manner, as systems in which wealth, status and power rules; balance may be found by attempting to see things from a more holistic, interrelated and interdependent perspective.

While Oriental Saturn suggests involvement in politics and a desire to attain positions authority, it is also seen in the birth-charts of politically astute protectors and champions of the people. Consumer activist Ralph Nader was born when Oriental Saturn was conjunct the north lunar node and trine Jupiter. The natal horoscope of Martin Luther King, Jr. features Saturn Oriental rising thirty degrees before the Sun. King’s highly aspected Saturn opposes Mars retrograde in the second house and is a member of a Grand Trine configuration with Jupiter and Neptune.
Oriental Saturn also figures in the birth-charts of many successful artists and composers, because even though their creative work ties in with Venus (art) and Neptune (music), it also requires a well-developed sense of form, order, definition and structure — all Saturnian qualities — and the sort of perseverance and authority often required to succeed in the fields of art and music. The birth-chart of the Russian avant-garde composer Alexander Scriabin shows an Oriental Appearing Saturn close to the Sun, forming a loose trine to a Neptune-Pluto conjunction in the twelve house. A visionary Mercury Prometheus retrograde rises shortly before Saturn. Scriabin’s music, far ahead of its time, is highly ordered and underpinned by a very sophisticated and highly structured theosophical metaphysics. Another theosophist and contemporary of Scriabin’s, the pioneer Russian abstract artist Wassily Kandinsky, was also born when Saturn was Oriental, in his instance conjunct the natal Ascendant and opposite Pluto. In spite of the abstract nature of his of work, his art is highly organized, well-structured and thoroughly planned. Every primitive — point, line, curve, etc. — has a very definite meaning according to Kandinsky’s elaborate (and somewhat rigid) system which has theosophy as a basis.



Uranus Guiding Planet

You are the sort of person who wants to revolutionize — or at least update and improve — whatever you touch. If you also possess insight and communication skills, you have the makings of a successful innovator. For you, it might not even matter much what you are innovating, discovering or revolutionizing, as long as you are effecting change! You may best meet problems or difficulties by seeking ingenious new solutions.
You have a knack for drawing criticism from conservative people who resent change, who like things just the way they are. That goes with the territory, but at times it might be productive to cultivate people skills, stability, perseverance and patience. More than most, you may find it difficult to "fit in" and many Uranus Skill Symbol people invent their own place in the world, often without precedent. A Uranian element of constant change and mutation may be evident in your personality and activities, which may bewildered others who can’t see the pattern and continuity beneath the surface.
As Guiding Planet, Uranus lets you know what needs to be shaken up; what’s out-moded and in the way, especially in the social and political sphere. More than most others, Uranus Guiding Planet people are often dissatisfied with themselves, their place in the world, and with general conditions. This is because Uranus lets them know in some definite yet unexplained way that things could be better, yet it doesn’t necessarily give much insight into how to manage things "after the revolution." Acquiring a historical and philosophical perspective may bring a better balance.

The natal horoscope of Beat writer and author of Dharma Bums and On the Road, Jack Kerouac, features Uranus Oriental, rising eleven degrees before a Piscean Sun. Uranus is near the Descendant and opposite the Moon, which is near the Ascendant, and squares from both planets to Mars at the nadir complete a well-defined T-Square formation.
As mentioned earlier, the Guiding Planet doesn’t tell the whole story, and one needs to tune into the chart as a whole and how the Oriental Planet fits into the whole picture. Regardless of how great and wonderful our potential and innate talent, unneutralized core issues may rise time and time again as obstacles preventing us from realizing our birth potential, or they may take the form of unconscious, self-sabotaging syndromes. Core-issue humanistic astrology — the harder ("harder" as in penetrating, powerful and effective, but easy in terms of application) form of humanistic astrology I’ve developed over the past three decades — is especially suited to recognizing where our core issues lie and how to deal with them. Core-issue humanistic astrology is also highly effective in helping the psychologically savvy discover the origins and nature of psychological complexes and personality disorders. It can help us neutralize core issues, psychological complexes and disorders, transmuting the immense psychic energy these conditions keep locked-up in rigid psychological patterns, rechannelling energies and power for self-realization and transformation.
Kerouac, the most macho of the Beats, was a Catholic mystic of sorts and evidently deeply conflicted in certain areas of his psychology and sexuality — he lived most of his life with his mother and she was one of the very few women with whom he seemed to have a truly close relationship. Although Kerouac exemplified and popularized the Beat spirit during the early years of his career, he later became somewhat alienated from his early comrades and highly critical of the involvement of Allen Ginsberg and Neal Cassady in the psychedelic culture of the mid-60s, perhaps because the two were attracting a large number of young people and were becoming prime movers of the emergent counterculture.
Paul Verlaine, another writer and poet whose lifestyle was as controversial, unconventional, and scandalous during his time as that of the Beats, was also born when Uranus was Oriental. He is most remembered today for his tumultuous homosexual liaison with poet Arthur Rimbaud.

The birth-charts of a rather extraordinary number of highly successful, visible women born during the 1940s and the early-1950s feature Uranus as the Planet of Oriental Appearance, and in many ways they seem to epitomize the spirit of their generation. Examples include vocalist Nancy Sinatra, singer turned actress Michelle Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas, actress turned singer Deborah Harry of the New Wave group Blondie, actress Anjelica Huston and early LSD researcher and leading figure in the human potential movement, Jean Houston.
In the birth-chart of Nancy Sinatra, Uranus rises twenty-four degrees before the Sun; it trines a second house Neptune and forms septiles to planets in a loaded twelfth house. Michelle Phillips, who epitomized the hippie chick of the 1960s, was born with the Sun and Oriental Uranus in Gemini, straddling a Gemini Ascendant. Uranus is close to the Sun and even closer to Venus, which rises less than two degrees before it. Yet, again, the Guiding Planet doesn’t tell the whole story, in Michelle’s later life her natal Jupiter in Leo conjunct the Nadir seems to exert a powerful pull, perhaps setting her direction. Deborah Harry, who made it big in the rock music business by taking the New Wave scene by storm while in her early-thirties, was born with a Cancer Sun conjunct the north lunar node and near Saturn, with Uranus Oriental, near the Midheaven, rising twenty-five degrees earlier. It is at the apex of a "wannabee" T-Square, forming a square to Jupiter on the Ascendant, which is opposite a Piscean Moon in the seventh house. Anjelica Houston’s natal chart shows Uranus Oriental in the seventh house, and it is the apex of a real T-Square with a powerful Jupiter-Neptune opposition across the meridian. The birth-chart of Jean Houston has Uranus Oriental rising less than two degrees before the Sun. The pair are in the ninth house, forming a Grand Tine with Neptune close to the Ascendant and Mars in the fifth house. Where’s Jane Fonda? Her birth-chart features Venus Oriental.
The natal horoscope of another singer turned actress, the iconic and ever-changing Madonna, has Uranus Oriental, rising eleven degrees before the Sun. Both the Sun and Uranus are in Leo, situated in the twelfth house with Pluto and Mercury in Virgo. Notably, Moon is just below the Ascendant in Virgo. Madonna, Deborah Harry and Michelle Phillips have more in common than just Uranus as Guiding Planet and their dual singer-actress careers — all three have Venus rising immediately before Oriental Uranus. Another example of Uranus Oriental is provided by the birth-chart of Winona Ryder. The daughter of psychedelic scholars and historians, Michael Horowitz and Cynthia Palmer, Winona is an "acid baby" who spent much of her early life living on a commune and visiting her father’s friends and associates.



Neptune Guiding Planet

You have a special, innate affinity for things psychological, abstract, mystical, transcendental and musical. Your are probably highly imaginative with a sharp intuition, and you may be inclined toward seeing the mystical or transcendental side of things. Although you may not be sharply focused regarding the practical side, or tend to place a lower priority on mundane matters, understanding how your duties and tasks fit into a whole may increase your productivity. The astrological planet Neptune corresponds to higher mathematics and other nerdy activities like computer programming, and today Neptune Skill Symbol people may find a place there.
Neptune Skill Symbol people can certainly get things done, but more than most they need to be motivated by realizing and accepting what they are working toward, and they need the respect of their coworkers. Otherwise any activity may seem akin to bondage and slavery, of just plain meaningless. Because Neptune provides you with some very special, highly private insights, goals and characteristics, others may find you and your motives difficult to understand, even mysterious and incomprehensible. And you may find it difficult, if not impossible, to explain yourself adequately to others. Not that you are inarticulate or others are particularly slow, but because the highly personal, or even transcendental, nature of your insights, goals and guiding faculties are not easily explained
As a Neptune Guiding Planet type, you may have a compassionate nature and a special knack for understanding the difficulties of others, of sympathizing with them and acting as a counselor. But you may also have a tendency toward either ruthlessness and exploitation or passivity and playing the victim. When confronted with difficult situations, try to see all side of the issue, then work out a harmonious solution that includes everyone. Neptune is the planet that provides the strongest psychic guidance, and its guidance may come in flashes, visions, dreams, gut feelings, hunches, happenstance or, most valuable of all, a holistic comprehension of people, situations and life.
It should be stressed that the Planet of Oriental Appearance does not necessarily indicate the precise career or occupation for which one is best suited. As Skill Symbol it represents the skills and faculties which are valuable personal assets, regardless of the particular area in which they are applied. Although Neptune is the planet most connected with music, it does not figure largely as Skill Symbol in the birth charts of famous and successful musicians and composers. Indeed, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn are more likely Skill Symbols for successful musicians and composers. This makes sense because to succeed in the field of music (and most other fields) much more than talent is required. The composers and musicians whose names have been immortalized often achieved success through their skills and faculties for self-promotion, communication, socializing, goal setting, determination, perseverance and putting on airs of authority.

Kurt Cobain is one musician born with Neptune in Oriental Appearance who achieved tremendous success and recognition – for a short time – and he is today regarded as the most influential rock musician of his generation. Cobian’s birth chart features Neptune in Scorpio rising a great distance (ninety-seven degrees) before the Sun, and a member of a extraordinary Kite formation which is described in the feature Kurt Cobain – Why Did He Die?
A key figure in the San Francisco Psychedelic Movement, Grace Slick is another Oriental Neptune type who realized acclaim in the world of rock music. Like Cobain, she was born with a rather extraordinary natal chart, and both names are closely linked with drugs and the drug culture. Although in recent years Grace has tired to greatly downplay her drug experience, as well as the sincerity of her rather radical, if not outright revolutionary, politics, she will forever be known as the Queen of Acid Rock and the Voice that Launched a Million Trips.
We can only wonder what are the drugs of choice Neptune Orientals Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates indulgence in. But power and control are certainly potent and highly addictive drug substitutes, and the domination-submission syndrome is certainly in Neptune’s domain. The birth-chart of Bill Gates has Neptune rising seven degrees before the Sun, and it is close to the midpoint of a cluster of six planets, all within forty-one zodiacal degrees. As mentioned, mathematics, computer programming and nerddom are in Neptune’s domain. Neptune is also the planet of unknowns, mysteries and intangibles, and what Bill is really all about is perhaps one such intangible. Like Bill Gates, Hillary Clinton was also born when Sun was in the early degrees of Scorpio, with Neptune Oriental in Libra, rising twenty-one degrees before the Sun. In Hillary’s birth-chart, Oriental Neptune forms a productive sextile aspect to a very tight Mars-Pluto conjunction in the fifteen degree of Leo – perhaps a good place to look if one really cares to know what she is about.
Neptune Oriental people can be highly focused and productive individuals who use their intuitive, if not psychic, insight into nature to make important contributions to science. Physicist Enrico Ferme possessed an uncanny skill for accurately theorizing the sub-atomic realm. He was born with Neptune as Guiding Planet rising ninety-four degrees before the Sun.




Pluto Guiding Planet

Your special skill lies in your penetrating insight which enables you to develop and introduce new systems and principles of organization. Pluto Skill Symbol corresponds with the power to give old ideas and concepts new meaning and vitality, and the personal force and charisma to inspire and lead others. You have a knack for seeing the hidden side of things and the secret agendas of others. Your powers of persuasion and your penetrating insight into people and things may be your greatest asset, but it also carries the germ of manipulation.
Pluto Oriental people tend to be very intense and possess a high degree of personal force and will. With tremendous charisma and a commanding presence, they seldom go unnoticed and they may be feared as much as loved. When faced with obstacles, your first response is probably to simply blast through opposition, forcing others to conform with your views and expectations, but you may do better by tuning into the Guiding Planet aspect of Pluto. Look at the big picture, get a handle on the "ultimates," listen to the views of others, and take all possibilities into account before pursuing a course of action with the intensity and firm determination typical of Pluto Skill Symbol people.
People born with Pluto Oriental have a special, inside track to the ultimates involved in any situation, and they often like to strip things down to the bare essentials, so they can see what’s really important. As a Oriental Pluto type, you may be painfully ahead of your time. Attempting to get others to see things from your ultimate, inclusive perspective may be frustrating. Try to develop patience and avoid condemning people who have difficulty seeing things your way.

In view of the above, we should expect Pluto Oriental people to figure among the most potent and influential personages, and what was written is generally true of any Plutonian type, including people born with Pluto on an angle. Two of the most influential people of the 19th century, who played large roles in shaping the features of the 20th century mind, were born when Pluto was Oriental. Regardless of his true time of birth, Sigmund Freud was born with Pluto Oriental, an excellent symbol for a man who forced humanity to own its subconscious mind! The 20th century would not have been the 20th century without his contribution. Nor would it be lacking H. P. Blavatsky, whose mission it was to "change the mind of the 20th century." Indeed, Blavatsky first opened the western mind to comparative religion and everything today loosely called metaphysical and "new age." Born into an aristocratic Russian family, Oriental Pluto is in her natal eleventh house, rising a great distance before the second house Leo Sun, and both are involved in powerful oppositions. In her time, it was said that the only woman in the world holding more influence and a greater number of followers than HPB was Queen Victoria.
In our time, Nelson Mandela exemplifies a successful Pluto Oriental, born when Pluto rose twenty degrees ahead of the Sun, and near Jupiter. The success of his early political activities aimed at achieving equal rights for Blacks in South Africa, assisted by his tremendous charisma, earned him decades in prison. But in the end his goals were achieved and he won worldwide respect and honor as a statesman and humanitarian.
The birth-charts of two of the most unique and independent voices on today’s music scene, Sean Lennon and Ani di Franco, feature Pluto Oriental. Sean Lennon, whose chart shows Pluto rising six degrees before an exact conjunction of the Sun and Mercury retrograde, exemplifies the quiet aspect of Pluto as Guiding Planet, but his outstanding charisma and presence suggests he may play a large role in the future. Ani di Franco is gifted singer-songwriter regarded as a goddess incarnate by her fans, and she has done it all — very much her way. Refusing to sell-out in any way, shape or form, Ani started her own record company to preserve the integratity of her work and maintain control over our her sound and image. Her natal horoscope features Pluto in late-Virgo rising three degrees before the Sun in the first degree of Libra. The two straddle the Midheaven and a very close Mars-Mercury conjunction in the ninth house rises fourteen degrees before Pluto.

Guiding Planet in the Houses

The house of your birth-chart (the section of space surrounding your birth) occupied by your Planet of Oriental Appearance provides insight into the particular area of human experience through which your innate skills, faculties and aptitudes may be best realized.

Oriental Planet in the First House. The first house represents experiencing yourself as a unique individual. If your Skill Symbol is in this house, you may be an exemplar of your chosen profession — a representative or ideal man or woman who has integrated the qualities and functions of the Skill Symbol into the fabric of personality. With Skill Symbol in the first house, you may tend to over-identify with what you do — remember, you are more than a job description, no matter how well you fill it!

Oriental Planet in the Second House. You possess strong and highly productive skills and abilities which are apparent in all that you do. You may use your Skill Symbol very resourcefully for the acquisition of possessions and resources or as a means to acquire resources enabling you to pursue your real or personal interests and goals.

Oriental Planet in the Third House. Here the Skill Symbol may be used for accumulating or dispensing knowledge, and you may be more a general practitioner than a specialist. At times you may do well to remember that knowledge and information in themselves have no absolute value. Indeed, data and knowledge can produce destructive results when exploited by a mind lacking compassion and a broad frame of reference.

Oriental Planet in the Fourth House. The fourth house deals with personal integration, security, ones root power and the home. You may best use your special skills and faculties in the areas of personal and cultural integration, and for securing a basis of operation.

Oriental Planet in the Fifth House. Whatever skills and aptitudes your Skill Symbol represents, they are well used in the area of creativity, self-expression and for gaining personal experience. With your Oriental Appearing Planet in the fifth house, you may find it leads you to risk-taking and speculation.

Oriental Planet in the Sixth House. Regardless of which planet figures as Skill Symbol, its location in the sixth house enables you to focus your special skills and faculties on critical situations. You may use your Skill Symbol for self-improvement and to resolve your own personal crises and the problems of others.

Oriental Planet in the Seventh House. With your Skill Symbol in the Seventh House, you work well in partnership and in direct contact with others. You may use your people skills either for your own benefit or to help others by playing the middleman or representative. You may need to remember that you are more than a social image and that others are not personal resources to be used.

Oriental Planet in the Eighth House. You are especially skillful at business and at sensing and using the energies generated and released by human relationship. Your skills and faculties may be well used in conducting happy, productive and mutually beneficial relationships. But in a negative way, the same faculties may be used for exploitation and for getting what you want.

Oriental Planet in the Ninth House. You may use your skills and faculties to better understand and formulate large ideas, concepts and philosophical, social, scientific or religious systems. Individuals with Oriental Planet in the ninth house are often media savvy and use their skills to expand human horizons and understanding.

Oriental Planet in the Tenth House. You may best use your special skills and faculties to either advance your own interests in the social and professional worlds or to contribute new social ideals to the world-at-large. Your Skill Symbol may bring your before the public eye. Once there, you may use your position and responsibility in the interest of public good, or to bask in the radiance of your own glory.

Oriental Planet in the Eleventh House. You can best use your special skills and faculties within the sphere of your social environment or group to either draw attention to yourself through a show of glitter or to dramatize the need for personal and social adjustments and improvements.

Oriental Planet in the Twelfth House. Whatever skills and faculties are represented by your Skill Symbol, you do well to focus them on "ultimates." You work well in private or performing research, and you may find a place in little-known, obscure, or abstract fields. In another sense, this configuration points to a situation where either big issues need to be neutralized through the Skill Symbol, or where your special skills and faculties may serve a more than personal purpose.
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  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Mon, August 23, 2010 - 7:05 PM

    Neat, thanks for the post.
    Mine is clearly Saturn in the 8th house.

    But, have a reservation on the method used for determination:
    "Finding your Planet of Oriental Appearance is easy. If you have a copy of your birth-chart, simply look to see which planet immediately precedes the Sun in a clockwise direction."

    If an outer planet were just counterclockwise of the Sun (close enough to be conjunct), and the birth time very late; as the clock was turned back that planet could very well rise just before the Sun. A special circumstance, but possible. If any doubt, the beat way to check would be to recast your chart for sunrise.

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      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Mon, August 23, 2010 - 7:22 PM
      Thank you Edward=-)

      I hadn't thought of that.
      I wonder if the author who did the interpretations thought of it as well. Hmm.

      You make a really good point.

      Thank you for also giving a really good solution for the possible problem.
    • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Tue, August 24, 2010 - 12:39 AM
      "If an outer planet were just counterclockwise of the Sun (close enough to be conjunct), and the birth time very late; as the clock was turned back that planet could very well rise just before the Sun. A special circumstance, but possible. If any doubt, the beat way to check would be to recast your chart for sunrise. "

      It would have to be a tight conjunction I guess. If the sun moves on average one degree per day, then the slower moving planet would have to in orb of 1 degree or less for it to be possible. Worth keeping in mind though. I didn't think it actually mattered which one crossed the ascendant to be honest. I thought it was whatever planet happened to be oriental of the Sun at that moment. For example another 'mistake' would be if the planet which appears oriental was actually retrograde and would retrograde back before sun rise so that the sun rose before it. Not sure about it.


      Berthe

      You find the oriental planet by choosing the one that is immediately clockwise after the sun. In other words find the sun in your chart and then start tracing your finger clockwise from that position and the next planet you meet will be the oriental planet. Normally this was only considered using traditional planets. Yours appears to be Jupiter. But double check by setting a sun rise time.
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        Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Tue, August 24, 2010 - 1:04 AM
        "I thought it was whatever planet happened to be oriental of the Sun at that moment."

        That would have to be a new idea, because I never heard of this. Your natal chart is always as is at the moment of birth. It shouldn't matter which planets were wherever at sunsrise. If you edited the chart to a different time period, it might make you miss which planet(s) is(are) oriental at your birth, especially if you are a new Moon chart and the Moon is your oriental planet (since it can sometimes be quite swift). If you changed the time, the Moon especially could be very different - if you were born before sunrise, your Moon would be moved ahead of course, and if you were born after sunrise, it would be moved backwards.

        For anyone confused, here's a link I found useful the first time I learned about oriental vs. occidental:
        skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php

        There's a sample chart with a line drawn through the Sun, showing how you can determine which planets are oriental (and which are occidental). In the chart shown, Mars would be the "Guiding Planet," as used in this thread.
        • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Tue, August 24, 2010 - 1:15 AM
          "That would have to be a new idea, because I never heard of this. Your natal chart is always as is at the moment of birth. It shouldn't matter which planets were wherever at sunsrise."

          Confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
          What I'm saying, to be more clear, is that I always felt that an oriental planet or occidental planet is determined from the moment of the chart, regardless of the time of day of that chart. It's set for THAT moment, not the moment of sunrise. So if you're born at 9pm you use that moment regardless of whether another planet overtakes the 'apparent' oriental planet in the mean time. Basicall you use your chart, not sunrise.

          So when edward suggested amending your time to sunrise, I hadn't heard of this before but if that's how it's meant to work then it has other implications such as an oriental planet retrograding behind another planet ust before sun rise etc etc.
          • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Tue, August 24, 2010 - 6:40 AM

            "I always felt that an oriental planet or occidental planet is determined from the moment of the chart, regardless of the time of day of that chart. It's set for THAT moment, not the moment of sunrise."

            Same here, but the author of the posted link writes thus:

            "From ancient times, the planet crossing the eastern horizon — the astrological Ascendant — immediately before the Sun has symbolized the practical channel through which solar will and vitality is expressed. The ancients called this body the "Planet of Oriental Appearance" because it appears in the eastern sky immediately before the Sun — that is, the planet rising directly before the Sun. Today, we refer to the Planet of Oriental Appearance at your birth time as your Guiding Planet or your Skill Symbol, . ."

            The description is confusing; ". . immediately before the Sun. . " and ". . directly before the Sun. . " imply some short period of time, which may not be the case. Quite often, there is no planet rising "immediately before the Sun". What the . . . ?

            Honestly, I think the author has used a literary device in an attempt to explain the meaning of "Oriental" and "Guiding planet" to an audience presumed to be unfamiliar with the terms in an Astrological context. The overall tone of the article is simplistic, supporting this contention. The author did not, and had no reason to consider there might be nit-pickers like us about who would take exception to a flawed analogy.

            (By strict dictionary definition, "Oriental" = located in Asia, and "Occidental" = located in Europe. Around where I live, "Oriental" is used colloquially as a synonym for "east" or to identify a type of restaurant.
            • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

              Tue, August 24, 2010 - 6:51 AM
              "(By strict dictionary definition, "Oriental" = located in Asia, and "Occidental" = located in Europe. Around where I live, "Oriental" is used colloquially as a synonym for "east" or to identify a type of restaurant. "

              Certainly orient relates to the direction of east, whereas occident refers to the western direction.
              I agree that the author is rather simplistic. I think that it probably doesn't matter greatly anyway of course, but just to be precise about it it would be interesting to know.

              Incidentally, and to make matters slightly more confusing, many astrologers will refer to 'oriental planets' and 'occidental planets' which may relate to planets oriental or occidental in reference to the sun, or instead, to the MC. "Oriental to the figure" or "oriental to the chart", refer to being on the eastern side of the natal chart (regardless of where the sun is or what it is doing), so should be taken as being easterly from the MC. Because of how the chart is drawn up, east is the 'left' side of the chart, so if anyone reads about planets oriental to the chart, they mean on the left hand side of the chart!

              Astrologers love to complicate!
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            Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Tue, August 24, 2010 - 4:45 PM
            "Confused. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?"

            I was agreeing with you, Paul, disagreeing with the person you were quoting. Sorry, confusing how I referenced the quote!

            The only thing I can think of regarding changing our chart times is in reference to Moon-Sun aspects before birth, such as eclipses and new Moons/full Moons? That's common in traditional, and I noticed Michele is an astrologer who looks at those too. She had a thread on life goals, or something like that, in reference to prenatal solar eclipses - where the eclipse was in your chart.
  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Mon, August 23, 2010 - 8:33 PM
    hey robin!
    this was a very interesting article and our guiding / oriental (ascendent, right?) plantet.....mine is moon (cancer) in 3rd house.....you find the most intriguing articles! thanks for sharing :-)

    sincerely....
    berthe :-)
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      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Mon, August 23, 2010 - 11:48 PM
      "hey robin!
      this was a very interesting article and our guiding / oriental (ascendent, right?) plantet.....mine is moon (cancer) in 3rd house.....you find the most intriguing articles! thanks for sharing :-)

      sincerely....
      berthe :-) "

      Thank you berthe=-)

      No, your guiding planet is the planet that rises before your sun.

      It's kind of a simple way of finding your talents,but it's not the only thing you should go by.

      My Oriental/Guiding planet is in Uranus in Scorpio in my 5th house.

      You can find it by going counter clock wise around your chart.

      It looks like your guiding planet is in Jupiter in Capricorn in your 7th house.

      Lucky you.

      You have a very cool chart by the way.

      I just looked at it.(embarassed face)

      I'll talk to you later!=-D
      Robin
      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Tue, August 24, 2010 - 12:51 AM
        "My Oriental/Guiding planet is in Uranus in Scorpio in my 5th house.

        You can find it by going counter clock wise around your chart. "

        Not sure if this is a typo or just a misunderstanding, but going COUNTER clockwise will find you the OCCIDENTAL planet, not the oriental planet. To find the oriental planet, just put your finger on the sun and start moving around the chart in a clockwise direction (which means you go backwards in the zodiac) until you meet a planet. That is the oriental planet.


        Also generally speaking feminine planets prefer being occidental whereas only masculine planets prefer being oriental. At least in the traditional approaches to it.
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          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Tue, August 24, 2010 - 1:48 AM
          "Not sure if this is a typo or just a misunderstanding, but going COUNTER clockwise will find you the OCCIDENTAL planet, not the oriental planet. To find the oriental planet, just put your finger on the sun and start moving around the chart in a clockwise direction (which means you go backwards in the zodiac) until you meet a planet. That is the oriental planet. "


          I wasn't thinking right about it because my Uranus is very nearly conjunct my Sun in my 5th so it's pretty easy for me and it would be pretty easy for berthe too to find her Oriental planet,but I 'm not as well educated about the Occidental planet. I'll have to educate myself in that area. =-)


          "Also generally speaking feminine planets prefer being occidental whereas only masculine planets prefer being oriental. At least in the traditional approaches to it. "

          I'm still learning about the different approaches so, thank you for mentioning it. =-D
          • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:11 AM
            god, why is Venus my oriental planet? it's so useless..

            ps..that description for finding your oriental planet is very confusing at first...when you go in a clockwise direction, the planet that precedes the Sun is not the next in line according to the Zodiac placements..mine would be the Moon..which is in Taurus. My Sun and Venus are in Pisces..so, clarify it for me..is it the closest planet, or the one preceding the Sun, from a clockwise direction?
            • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

              Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:32 AM
              Mantis

              The wording is a bit confusing alright. It's actually not difficult though.

              Just get your natal chart and find the sun. Now start moving clockwise around the outer edge of the chart til you hit anothe rplanet. That's the oriental planet.

              However because of how the chart is drawn, you'll notice that as you move clockwise you're moving 'backwards' in terms of zodiac positioning. So in terms of its position on the zodiac, the oriental planet does precede the sun.

              The idea of 'closeness' is irrelevant. THe planet could be whole signs away from the sun (and often is). THe point is that it is the most easterly planet from the sun, hence the term 'oriental'.
              So yeah, in your chart Venus is oriental and the Moon is occidental - which is good for the moon cos feminine planets like being occidental.
              • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                Tue, August 24, 2010 - 8:51 AM
                "feminine planets like being occidental"...where'd you get that from?
                • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                  Tue, August 24, 2010 - 8:55 AM
                  astronuts.tribe.net/thread/8...7669880cb


                  AHA! So, that's where you got it from..lol.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                    Tue, August 24, 2010 - 9:29 AM
                    "AHA! So, that's where you got it from..lol."

                    Actually I think it's on skyscript somewhere which is where I got it from when learning more about horary.
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                      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                      Tue, August 24, 2010 - 4:54 PM
                      Mantis - that thread was mine, and I was getting my info from William Lilly and Skyscript.

                      The basic idea I think is that the feminine planets like occidental placements because that means they are more nocturnal that way (even if it's not a nocturnal chart they still rose after the Sun). Feminine planets prefer nocturnal placements because the night is more feminine, passive, reflective in nature, whereas the day is masculine, active, etc.

                      Venus oriental used to be associated with women who had bad manners or were sexually promiscuous because they are more masculine in nature. Nowadays we probably notice it more in women's charts who are more outspoken vs. a shrinking violet. My Moon AND Venus are oriental AND masculine (most of my planets are oriental), so I am not the most conservative in my views on a woman's place and I get annoyed with my married friends who are talking about pleasing their husbands and acting as their housemaids or mother. In traditional, they would have called me a lesbian or man-hater too because my Venus is with Mars in Aries and oriental, above the earth in a day chart (in every way that Venus can be out of her natural placements).
                      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                        Tue, August 24, 2010 - 5:48 PM
                        Venus Oriental is bold and promiscuous? weird..I always thought Venus was meek...in any position.


                        I am also really infuriated by women who just bend over and take it up the ass, to put it subtly, but at the same time I have never really had much belief in my ability to be truly independent...I do realize it's mostly in my head, but it's amazing how paralyzing negative self-suggestion can be.

                        It doesn't help that I also just look soft and feminine, and short(5'2), which makes most people picture me with an apron around my waist, for some reason...
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                          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                          Tue, August 24, 2010 - 6:21 PM
                          "Venus Oriental is bold and promiscuous? weird..I always thought Venus was meek...in any position."

                          It relates a lot to sexual attitudes, but also in part your manners, especially when it's a woman in question. In a man's chart it was really important in traditional times in how they would interpret a man's wife (if she'd be pretty, well mannered or combative, would cheat or stay true, etc.).

                          In traditional it would mean being promiscuous, but I've seen a lot of the opposite. It might be expected in a life-long virgin's chart. Usually sexual attitudes are just different than the norm (either extreme), especially if other factors are going on like combustion, retrograding, essential debility, etc.

                          Independence isn't just seen in the Venus placement, but it can play a part for us.

                          We're in good company. Examples of oriental Venus women (I just randomly looked up charts of women I thought would have it and 'lo and behold):

                          Jane Austen (also her Moon)
                          Gloria Steinem
                          Eartha Kitt
                          Maya Angelou
                          Marilyn Monroe
                          Virginia Woolf
                          Charlotte Bronte

                          Or you might see others with masculine Venuses above the earth in a day chart, like Queen Elizabeth I (hers is with the Sun too - so it's much hotter/masculine). Or the Moon in night charts might be oriental, masculine/fire, such as in George Sand's. Plus, hers is below the earth with the Sun, making it more fiery in a night chart.

                          Etc.


                          People misunderstand me too.
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                            Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                            Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:23 PM
                            One astrologer explained the oriental/occidental movement of Venus to me before because in horary we use it in love questions as secondary significators for man/women in the chase of love. So when Venus is occidental, she's behind the Sun, and he's moving towards her. When she is oriental, she's in front of Sun and he's moving away from her while she's chasing after him (in her normal speed she's faster than him too). This can change a bit when Venus is retro/stationary or very slow, but in general that is the setup of their relationship. They're always within a few signs of each other and one of them is chasing after the other.

                            So for a woman (also for a man because the Sun-Venus connection applies, more so looking at his Sun being ahead or behind Venus) who has an oriental Venus who is swift, she might pursue in love (or maybe try to conquer) vs. wait for the man to come after you, but that doesn't just relate to love, it relates to all things that planet represents in your chart.

                            In my chart, my Venus is swift oriental and my Sun is slow. I have really only been attracted to 3 men before, but in all three, the men have debilitated Mars (and an occidental Venus) and will not make their feelings known to me. My first boyfriend was terrified of asking me out and I basically yelled at him one day to ask me out, after two years of the game playing, and he did. LOL Men tend to be scared of me in general.
              • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                Tue, August 24, 2010 - 12:54 PM
                Paul,
                "The idea of 'closeness' is irrelevant. THe planet could be whole signs away from the sun (and often is). "

                True, but combined with:
                "Your Skill Symbol shows you how to best handle and cope with the demands and opportunities of daily life in a skillful, productive and fulfilling manner, and where your inherent skills and practical abilities lie. As your Guiding Planet, the planet rising immediately before the Sun symbolizes the faculties and inner senses scouting your path ahead, or your ability to navigate the best course to self-realization and fulfillment."

                A bowl chart with Sun opposition Saturn as the "Guiding Planet" would be no great blessing. "No, No, not that one. My Guiding Planet has it in for me!" Have not checked the ephemera to see when the configuration would have taken place. . . . sorry.


                IMO, the concept is overblown in this article; "Skill Symbol" to some extent, but for a true "Guiding Planet" believe one should look elsewhere via a combination of factors as dignity, depositorship, placement, and the like. Personally, my own oriental planet fits skills rather well, but falls short as a guiding planet.
      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Tue, August 24, 2010 - 11:07 AM
        oh, robin....i feel so 'uneducated' by not knowing my placements on my chart but i have never read a chart or i do not know how to....yet! :) thanks for clarifying my guiding /oriental planet!!!!! :) thanks for looking at my chart, too....i will check out the description on my guiding planet now :) this is soooo interesting and helpful!!!

        hope you are having a wonderful afternoon!

        sincerely....
        berthe :-)
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Tue, August 24, 2010 - 12:47 PM
          "oh, robin....i feel so 'uneducated' by not knowing my placements on my chart but i have never read a chart or i do not know how to....yet! :) thanks for clarifying my guiding /oriental planet!!!!! :) thanks for looking at my chart, too....i will check out the description on my guiding planet now :) this is soooo interesting and helpful!!!

          hope you are having a wonderful afternoon!

          sincerely....
          berthe :-) "

          berthe,

          please don't feel bad. Astrology is pretty complex and as you can probably tell from reading the discussion going on in this post, other people are trying to figure it out too.=-)

          You're welcome.
          I'm glad to help you out.=-D

          I think that I probably was wrong in saying counter clockwise though,
          but I think you probably have the idea of what your Oriental Planet is from what I and Paul both wrote.

          Oh, just so you know, I found my Oriental planet through a software program(yes I cheated,lol!), called astrowin it's free if you want something to help you learn.=-)

          Here's the links to the astrowin home page and the software.

          www.astrowin.org/home.php


          www.astrowin.org/astrology_software.php


          I hope you have a wonderful afternoon too!

          Robin
          • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Tue, August 24, 2010 - 1:25 PM
            ok, I downloaded AstroWin..where does it say what my oriental planet is?
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

              Tue, August 24, 2010 - 1:52 PM
              "ok, I downloaded AstroWin..where does it say what my oriental planet is? "

              I'm really sorry, not to mention embarassed,
              I got my software mixed up.

              It's the "vocation" software and that's free too.

              I swear, I got it right this time.
              If not, then please, yell at me alot.

              Here's another link(s): www.astrowin.org/vocation.php

              www.astrowin.org/astrology_software.php

              Here's what mine looks like, this is only part of a page, it gives you AP(Aries Point) to midpoint aspects too later on in the page,which is cool.

              Now
              15 Nov 1976 TZ = 8.0 6.58 P.M. 117w01 32n46

              Pisces is the sign on the MC and its ruler is Neptune
              (possibly more than 1 vocation indicated)

              Neptune trines Saturn.
              Neptune sextiles Pluto.
              Neptune squares Moon.

              MC trines Uranus.
              MC squares Neptune.
              MC opposes Moon.

              Uranus is the oriental planet.

              Moon is quintile Asc

              Jupiter is quindecile Neptune
              Neptune is quindecile Asc

              Venus is peregrine.

              The Moon is in the 3RD HOUSE - and in the sign (reigning need) of Virgo.

              Asc is at the Aries Point.

              House 5 contains a stellium of planets.

              N. Node is configured with the Jupiter/Pluto midpoint.



              • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                Tue, August 24, 2010 - 2:13 PM
                great..just covered extra space of my already cluttered hard drive..

                yes, my oriental is friggin Venus..

                I did learn some new interesting things about my chart, though...apparently I have Mars quindecile Pluto, which is supposed to make me a power-hungry biotch..who wants to totally finish off the "competition"...but, who doesn't dream of that every now and then, really? lol.

                I also have the Moon-Pluto and Jupiter-Pluto quindeciles..gotta find stuff about that, too..also Mercury quindecile Ascendant, and North Node quindecile Ascendant. and Uranus quindecile MC..this sounds familiar to some midpoints I have..

                Also, Sun quintile Neptune and Saturn..I dunno...I mean, how come astro.com didn't list all these?
                • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                  Tue, August 24, 2010 - 2:18 PM
                  " * Noel suggests that "quindecile is an aspect of unrelenting motivation, obsession, determination, upheaval, disruption, even separation." The planets connected through this aspect are under high developmental tension, and I believe Noel counts it almost as important as conjunction, square or opposition.
                  * Ricki Reeves' book Quindecile goes into depth about the interpretation of each planetary combination in this aspect. From what I've read, she seems to suggest that there is a compulsive feeling of "whatever it takes" to fulfill one's motivation.

                  Here are some interpretive thoughts for the Quindecile aspect:

                  Quindecile (QD) to Midheaven: suggests obsessive and determined focus on career achievement in terms of the planet aspecting it.

                  Quindecile to Ascendant: suggests obsessive and even disruptive focus on relationship and self image in terms of the planet aspecting it."

                  wow...I must say they hit the nail on the head with the Ascendant..I have Mercury quindecile AC, and I over-analyze and talk myself out of any spontaneous action or trust in relationships..plus, I tend to be super self-conscious all the time..

                  sorry to take up space in this thread, but thought I should interrupt the programme for some important news..lol since I can't remember any threads on this tribe about quindeciles...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                    Tue, August 24, 2010 - 4:00 PM
                    Oops. I didn't even see that you posted this about quindeciles. I'm doing really well today. lol!

                    It's a good post.=-D Thank you.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                  Tue, August 24, 2010 - 3:46 PM
                  "great..just covered extra space of my already cluttered hard drive.. "

                  Once again, I'm really sorry about that. I feel bad.

                  "yes, my oriental is friggin Venus.."

                  Cool=-D


                  "I did learn some new interesting things about my chart, though...apparently I have Mars quindecile Pluto, which is supposed to make me a power-hungry biotch..who wants to totally finish off the "competition"...but, who doesn't dream of that every now and then, really? lol. "

                  It's true, who doesn't?

                  "I also have the Moon-Pluto and Jupiter-Pluto quindeciles..gotta find stuff about that, too..also Mercury quindecile Ascendant, and North Node quindecile Ascendant. and Uranus quindecile MC..this sounds familiar to some midpoints I have.. "

                  I'm guessing here,but Maybe moon-pluto gives you powerful, emotional drive. and maybe Jupiter-Pluto gives you obsessive or willful tendencies? Mercury-Ascendant gives you a forceful or strong self expression, I don't know about NN-Asc. and maybe Uranus-MC gives you alot of drive to be innovative and/or unique in your career.

                  Also, Sun quintile Neptune and Saturn..I dunno...I mean, how come astro.com didn't list all these?

                  Astro.com doesn't cover alot of things for some reason. I found another free site(I really like it) that covers alot of what's considered minor aspects as well. alot of people are using it lately. It's called clairvision virtual astrology

                  astrology.clairvision.org/astro...hboard

                  If you want to try that too.=-D
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                    Tue, August 24, 2010 - 4:08 PM
                    got this from cafeastrology: "Sun Quintile or Bi-Quintile Saturn

                    Very likely you notice more often than others that some highly acclaimed work is a variation of some much earlier work. You prefer art, music, and literature that require mastery and real originality."

                    loool..it's just so true. I'm always the first to spot re-used musical bits, for instance. Or just repeated similar ideas by different "artists"..

                    also, about obsessions and Jupiter..I think the general idea behind quin-deciles is that they're about obsessions.. just, generally.

                    Robin, maybe you have a Mars-Pluto aspect, as well?
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                      Tue, August 24, 2010 - 5:20 PM
                      "got this from cafeastrology: "Sun Quintile or Bi-Quintile Saturn

                      Very likely you notice more often than others that some highly acclaimed work is a variation of some much earlier work. You prefer art, music, and literature that require mastery and real originality."

                      loool..it's just so true. I'm always the first to spot re-used musical bits, for instance. Or just repeated similar ideas by different "artists".. "

                      Cool=-D


                      "also, about obsessions and Jupiter..I think the general idea behind quin-deciles is that they're about obsessions.. just, generally. "

                      Ya, I think so too.

                      "Robin, maybe you have a Mars-Pluto aspect, as well?"

                      I am, but it's not strong. I have Mars semi square Pluto.
                      I do tend to become very intense about things I'm interested in to the point of being hyperfocused and/or obsessed.
                      I'm assuming you can tell? Lol!
                      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                        Tue, August 24, 2010 - 5:37 PM
                        "I am, but it's not strong. I have Mars semi square Pluto.
                        I do tend to become very intense about things I'm interested in to the point of being hyperfocused and/or obsessed.
                        I'm assuming you can tell? Lol! "

                        semi-square..well, it's not negligible.. the contact is there, so it could be causing power struggles. You might also have other Pluto aspects in your chart..

                        I have a tight trine to my Venus, and the Mars i actually part of a stellium, so Pluto is quindecile Moon, Mars and Jupiter.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                          Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:28 PM
                          "semi-square..well, it's not negligible.. the contact is there, so it could be causing power struggles. You might also have other Pluto aspects in your chart..

                          I have a tight trine to my Venus, and the Mars i actually part of a stellium, so Pluto is quindecile Moon, Mars and Jupiter. "

                          Pluto(libra 4th) is a singleton in my chart. So that could be it . Also, I have minor aspects to every planet from Pluto that could be it too.
                          I'm thinking that my Pluto energy might be spilling over into my 5th(intercepted and in libra) even though it's 10 degress away,so that could also be something. Or my Scorpio stellium. My charts kind of a pain to figure out.

                          Wow, a trine between Venus and Mars AND in a stellium along with the Pluto quindeciles, that seems like some very powerful energy.
                          I imagine you blow people away=-)
                          • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

                            Wed, August 25, 2010 - 3:16 AM
                            "Wow, a trine between Venus and Mars AND in a stellium along with the Pluto quindeciles, that seems like some very powerful energy.
                            I imagine you blow people away=-) "

                            ooops...didn't say it right. I have a tight Pluto-Venus trine. Moon-Mars-Jupiter quindecile Pluto. I also have Venus quintile Moon-Mars-Jupiter.
  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Tue, August 24, 2010 - 6:32 PM
    You may be interested in something I wrote about Chiron as the Guiding Planet:
    zanestein.com/scout.htm
    • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:17 PM
      my oriental planet is mercury and its Rx.

      guess im one of the lucky worlds 10% population that have this specific placement eh?

      Mercury retrograde is seen in only about ten percent of all astrological charts, and when it figures as Oriental Planet it often bestows prophetic qualities and a future-oriented outlook. People with Mercury retrograde as Guiding Planet are often tend-setters, ahead of their time or misunderstood in their lifetime, but honored by future generations.

      hm. seems to fit with the whole Aquarius theme.
      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Sat, August 28, 2010 - 1:34 PM
        You know.... I got my Venus as my Oriental Planet and its 48 degrees from my Sun making a Semi-Square. I wonder if that makes me a commie. It just got done with the retro phase and is conjuct my North node to the degree in the 9th.

        Thou I like Chiron... it makes sense. My favorate color is Air and Im left-handed. It sucks that the cheep pens are the only ones that work! Go over to somebodies house and see the nicest pens.... AND NOT BE ABLE TO USE THEM! I could see how that one would play out since Chiron is in Gemini.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Tue, August 24, 2010 - 7:32 PM
      "You may be interested in something I wrote about Chiron as the Guiding Planet:"

      Hey!
      That's really cool.
      That's a really good idea.
      Thank you=-D
  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Thu, August 26, 2010 - 10:36 PM
    Mars in 12th is my Guiding Planet... it's hidden talent alright! If a sunken Mars is my greatest asset then I am in trouble lol. Even with all my Mars squares though I must say that Moon Trine Mars is probably the aspect of my chart I feel most thankful for. It really represents what I feel I am here for and what I strive to be... a protector of the those who need help. When I look at it that way, the importance of Mars in my chart seems to make more sense.
  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Sat, August 28, 2010 - 1:28 PM
    Hmmmm can Chiron be an Oriental planet?
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Sat, August 28, 2010 - 3:36 PM
      "Hmmmm can Chiron be an Oriental planet? "

      Yes it can.

      As I see it, with Chiron as the Scout planet, a person is drawn to the untrod path, led by the urge to find passageways, doorways, bridges. There is an acute awareness of the woundedness around them, which leads to the urge to heal, or teach, or guide, or lead the way towards self-sufficiency. There is a maverick quality to the way the person handles day to day efforts. Not rebellious...that's Uranian. Rather, a person goes his own way, at his own speed, never concerned that others may be moving faster or slower, or going in a different direction. To quote Thoreau, "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer."

      Here's the link to the page

      www.zanestein.com/scout.htm



      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Sat, August 28, 2010 - 4:06 PM
        Ever checked into the idea of planets in containment?

        koti.mbnet.fi/neptunia/as...contain1.htm

        It was a pretty good book when I read it a long time ago..... Intresting concept. Kinda goes hand-in-hand with this Orietal Planet stuff...

        Planetary containment is the study of planets in consecutive groups of three, as they fall together in zodiac. ... The use of planetary containment comes to us, as far back as we can trace it, from the East Indian Astrologers ... [although they] ignored them if the planets involved were more than 30 degrees apart.

        "The first planet of a containment group of three provides a basis and foundation for the three. The second planet is the pivot point of the group, the fulcrum and balance point, and the third planet shows the directional thrust of the three.

        To understand how to analyze a planetary containment, take any three adjacent planets in the chart and look at the middle one. ... [it] needs a basis or foundation, something to "push off" from. It is the planet behind it that provides this basis. ... Likewise in a containment triplicity, the planet that is in front of the middle planet signifies the destination, what the middle planet is moving toward.

        Another metaphor that can help you to think clearly about planetary containment is the concept "beginning-middle-end." To do anything, we must start somewhere. In a containment triplicity, the first planet shows where the middle planet is starting. ... The last of the three will show where the whole thing is likely to end."
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Sat, August 28, 2010 - 5:31 PM
          @Allan,

          Wow, thank you for the link!
          Planets in containment is a very interesting concept.
          This would be helpful for me seeing as how I have a scorpio stellium
          Among other planets that I have.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Sun, August 29, 2010 - 12:12 PM
    I liked the point made on that site about venus and mercury being close to the sun and how that makes these out to be fairly common guiding/oriental planets.

    As for me - I'm a wierdo with mars oriental.
    I think there was a time when I attempted to follow vesta as a guide instead but it didn't really work.

    I wish that there was always a way to "be sensitive to others" without failing to "get the job done".
    I really do try - but it seems like some people will not feel that they were treated with sensitivity
    unless they have been given what they want or had their way with you on some level.
    This isn't always the case - but sometimes there seems to be no way to succeed and be direct
    and honest enough unless you stop for people and put them at the center of attention for a while
    instead of being focused on the task at hand (and sometimes not allowing yourself to fail or fall
    into certain pitfalls is seen by others as a type of ruthless insensitivity and stubbornness).

    It would be nice if putting particular people
    at the center of my attention could always still allow progress and success but it just don't work
    that way from what I have seen. And I guess that I am guilty of having this notion that the greater
    good of the world at large and the success of certain commonly held goals trump any one person's
    particular whim, desire or ego. But sometimes it would seem that I am mistaken in this notion?

    To a certain point, being effective and successful in and of itself can be taken as an affront to some
    individuals and systems - it seems like it's that whole issue of "not beating your boss at golf"
    in a social sphere and applied to everything.
    It also seems like failure is a thing that is required for certain systems to function - and succeeding
    instead of failing a times is the worst kind of threat to an established and comfortable functionally
    disfunctional system and it will make enemies for you far faster than the worst of "your mom" jokes
    that exist.

    So - while the comment was made in the interpretation of mars oriental that "your enemies will
    be those who you were most insensitive to" with some kind of reference or connection to ruthlessness ...
    I would state that no matter how sensitive you try to be - sometimes succeeding where others fail
    is, in fact, the most ruthless thing you could do in the eyes of some people and in some circumstances.

    I guess one trick might be to try to make someone else look good for the things you succeed at?
    But now you are playing games and being manipulative and someone could call that ruthless
    too in a different way and I think it would make a different subset of enemies.

    This is a point that I've been trying to "figure out" for some time now. I wouldn't say I've got it down just yet.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Sun, August 29, 2010 - 1:25 PM
      I don't know if you're directing this at everyone in being general or what,but I have to say I can see your point.


      "I wish that there was always a way to "be sensitive to others" without failing to "get the job done".
      I really do try - but it seems like some people will not feel that they were treated with sensitivity
      unless they have been given what they want or had their way with you on some level. "


      I agree, I also wish there was a way to always be sensitive to others without failing to accomplish a goal. I'm always trying to make sure other people are happy and that I'm not causing hard feelings because I care and it's so easy to cause disruptions while it's difficult to maintain peace and happiness among us.
      Sometimes it's difficult though, no matter how you try, to accomplish your own goals and still be sensitive to other people's desires and needs especially when they want you to be a part of "there" plans and you don't have the same idea.

      And I guess that I am guilty of having this notion that the greater
      good of the world at large and the success of certain commonly held goals trump any one person's
      particular whim, desire or ego. But sometimes it would seem that I am mistaken in this notion? "

      You mean you're an idealist? =-D


      "So - while the comment was made in the interpretation of mars oriental that "your enemies will
      be those who you were most insensitive to" with some kind of reference or connection to ruthlessness ...
      I would state that no matter how sensitive you try to be - sometimes succeeding where others fail
      is, in fact, the most ruthless thing you could do in the eyes of some people and in some circumstances. "

      I agree, many people find other people's success, even if it's completely innocent, threatening.
      I think it depends on what kind of success you're attaining though. Like if you travel alot and you're happy,but you have a family and your family misses you.... that, to me, is different.



      I guess one trick might be to try to make someone else look good for the things you succeed at?"

      Or you could find people who are like you and who have the same/similar goals as you. Then nobody can get hurt or upset because you have the same or similar thing in mind.

      I'm just trying to help.
      You seem frustrated.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Sun, August 29, 2010 - 5:37 PM
        Well it is true that I have encountered some frustrations in this area.
        I have been struggling to try to understand just what it is that creates conflict
        so that I can more skillfully prevent it.

        I much prefer cooperation to conflict. I feel like conflict often wastes valuable
        resources unnecessarily - especially time.

        At the same time, situations that challenge my integrity are hard for me to find peace
        with - even if no one else seems bothered by the integrity issues.
        And it's hard for me to be silent about situations that "aren't working" when it seems
        clear to me that there is a way to make them work.
        But I don't know that this would be a source of conflict ... it could be.

        But it feels like the conflict comes from some other place ... it is really kind of
        mysterious and to me it seems illogical. It doesn't make sense to me very easily and
        I find myself thinking about it a lot in an attempt to "figure it out".
        It seems social in its origin somehow. Often it really surprises and confuses me and
        I do not see it coming most of the time.

        I think the idea of finding "like minded people" is a pretty useful one. It does seem to
        work

        I guess some of the frustration was coming from the idea that "being nice" and trying
        to be sensitive is often not enough. People have expectations and no matter how nice
        you are about it - it doesn't seem nice to them if you don't deliver what they want. I guess
        it is more than just sensitivity involved in the dynamic of success and enemies.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Sun, August 29, 2010 - 9:28 PM
          "Well it is true that I have encountered some frustrations in this area.
          I have been struggling to try to understand just what it is that creates conflict
          so that I can more skillfully prevent it. "

          Other people's differences of opinions create conflict, your difference of opinion from other people, people who can only see from there point of view, people who just want to get the job done and don't care about anybody else, people who think that other people should be just like them, people who act aggressively when it's not how they really feel, people who just aren't very accepting of other people

          Some Ways to prevent it is to always be diplomatic and diplomatically put your foot down without loosing your temper.
          Like calmly saying... " I refuse to be pulled into this arguement" or " I respect your opinion, but what works for you doesn't necessarily work for me" Or " I appreciate your point of view,but I ask that you respect my point of view"
          Also being watchful of body language, trying to sense emotional and verbal undertones and cues.

          I hope I'm not going over board.

          "I much prefer cooperation to conflict. I feel like conflict often wastes valuable
          resources unnecessarily - especially time. "

          I don't like conflict either.
          I'm sensitive to it.
          I can understand your point of view though.=-)

          "At the same time, situations that challenge my integrity are hard for me to find peace
          with - even if no one else seems bothered by the integrity issues. "

          I can understand that too.


          "And it's hard for me to be silent about situations that "aren't working" when it seems
          clear to me that there is a way to make them work.
          But I don't know that this would be a source of conflict ... it could be. "

          If something isn't working and you believe you have the answer to make it work, it's true, people may feel threatened or irritated by someone saying something to provide the solution.
          Just tactfully ask that you be heard.
          Say "I ask that you please hear me out and then I'll listen to you"
          or "I respect your point of view,but I ask that you hear me out because I believe I have a solution to this".

          Once again. I'm just trying to you help you out.

          "But it feels like the conflict comes from some other place ... it is really kind of
          mysterious and to me it seems illogical. It doesn't make sense to me very easily and
          I find myself thinking about it a lot in an attempt to "figure it out". "

          I think that one might be a tough one to figure out.
          I can see where you're coming from,but
          conflict and peace is everywhere in the universe.
          It's just part of how we live.
          Objects bang against one another to create or destroy.
          Animals fight for land,resources,mates or they create
          Human's argue over who gets to do what, when, where, to who or they create " "

          Sometimes, I guess, a cigar is just a cigar. =-)
          That's just my perspective on it.

          "It seems social in its origin somehow. Often it really surprises and confuses me and
          I do not see it coming most of the time. "

          I mean no disrespect,but are you intuitive? Do you use your intuition?
          If not maybe that would you see conflict before it hits you.


          I think the idea of finding "like minded people" is a pretty useful one. It does seem to
          work

          "I guess some of the frustration was coming from the idea that "being nice" and trying
          to be sensitive is often not enough. People have expectations and no matter how nice
          you are about it - it doesn't seem nice to them if you don't deliver what they want. I guess
          it is more than just sensitivity involved in the dynamic of success and enemies.""

          It's true.

          I hope things go better for you.


          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Sun, August 29, 2010 - 10:15 PM
            No I don't think you are going over board Robin!

            Actually I am grateful for your insight into this issue.
            I am finding it very helpful and it is something I am
            open to a lot of different perspectives about.

            I think you are right ... I sometimes do go right in
            for the kill so to speak with a direct and total
            dissertation on the facts as I see them.
            Where it might be a bit more helpful to go through
            a bit of niceities and things first ... and to couch what
            I am saying a bit more carefully in sensitive context sandwiches.
            I should practice some of your good suggestions so that
            they come on instinct when things are really rolling and
            I'm striking the target hot and fast in order to just nail it ...
            so that I don't forget about this important part that you
            are pointing out in the excitement of it all.

            I do use my intuition ... however ...
            *sometime my intuition detects an impasse in the very nature
            of mis-matched intentions - setting off a defensive call to arms
            throughout my being
            *and other times I choose not to listen to or rely on it for
            other reasons (because it doesn't fit with other data I have
            available to me and is causing confusion in some way)
            *and generally, I tend to allow intuition to work passively
            and I don't seek for extra insight in this way into other people

            Working from this end may have some ethical considerations
            but it might be worth developing more.

            I do think that you are right that "a cigar is just a cigar at times".
            Certainly I should not expect to ever make everyone happy.
            However, it seems that I have some room to grow here ... at
            least I would hope that I do! Because that means that there
            is a possibility to improve things.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

              Sun, August 29, 2010 - 11:15 PM
              @erin,

              You definitely are capable of learning what you want to learn and grow as you want to grow as a person.
              Just seeing the words you're saying tells me that. =-)

              I'm glad that I could help you in some way with this.
              I hope that you're able to fully accomplish what you're desiring to accomplish.

              Success=-D
    • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Sun, August 29, 2010 - 9:47 PM
      erin.

      "I guess one trick might be to try to make someone else look good for the things you succeed at?
      But now you are playing games and being manipulative."

      You're doing black and white, when dealing with people it's often more often than not a shade of grey.

      The ideal is to bury your own ego need for recognition, and concentrate on everyone look good for the accomplishments made together.
      OK, sometimes it's your idea, and you arrange so "they" get some credit. But next time you may have taken their idea, developed and made it possible, and you get some credit.

      If you consider the first to be manipulative, you have to accept the latter is stealing.

      We're always better off doing neither.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Sun, August 29, 2010 - 10:07 PM
        It is true that success is almost never the result of a single person.
        Even the mini-successes that we pat ourselves on the backs for
        would usually be impossible without the work of so many other
        folks before us.
        At the same time, I think that quite often the credit for a success
        does get attributed to a single individual basking in the glory seat
        (and likewise ... fault attributed to a single individual ...).

        At the same time - I have at times been a little bit guilty of the
        whole "selling something as someone else's idea" bit in order
        to get people to buy into it ... or go along with it ...
        and it is amazing how well that works - but I only cave in to the
        temptation of it when it seems like the need involved to make
        something work feels really compelling.

        And also - making another person look good is not totally the same
        as giving them all the credit.
        It is a wee little bit less manipulative than giving the credit all to
        someone else ... but it also seems to work a lot of the time.

        I also wasn't limiting things to just bailing on my own ego in things
        and giving others credit for their parts in things ...
        I was thinking more along the lines of making little PR campaigns
        and spinning and designing the whole plan around making sure
        certain people look good in the end or including that as a very
        important part of a plan that otherwise has nothing to do with the
        way people look as a primary objective.

        Actually it is pretty rare for me to take a whole lot of credit for things.
        This has become my first line of defense and survival in an effort
        to cling to my coveted little quirky perfectionist pet integrities and boundaries
        and things.

        I spend a lot of effort on thank yous and apologies for minor imperfections.
        But that often comes up short in the end. My little pet ideals may be more
        costly than I think? Or it may be that the little successes aren't what are
        ultimately valued in the end. I'm starting to think that what is valued falls
        more along the lines of surrender, ownership and loyalty (belonging to
        the ones that have power .... not just working for the ones who have power).
        • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Mon, August 30, 2010 - 5:59 AM

          erin, and anyone else interested;

          **** Guru hat on ****


          A Guiding Principle applicable to all:

          _________________________________________________

          . . . . . . . . . . . . YOU ARE NOT YOUR JOB ! . . . . . . . . . . . . .
          _________________________________________________


          Especially in the USA, on first meeting; it's name first, followed immediately by "What do you do?".
          Usually, the question doesn't have to be asked; we give the answer, often with details.
          And a world of conclusions immediately drawn therefrom. Hard to avoid.

          Keep in mind the "who" you are at work will be different from the "who" you are at home.
          Which is different from the "who" you are in a bar with a killer live band at 1:00am Saturday night,
          As opposed to the "who" you are meeting with your childs teacher.
          Or attending a friends funeral.

          However, all of these persona should be simply different facets of your complete self, and basic items as personal integrity, honesty (not brutal in-your-face opinion honesty, BTW), and empathy should be constant in all cases. Each will have a situational identity of their own, but if you are appropriately empathic with the family at the funeral, you should be appropriately empathic with the co-worker at your place of employment whose spouse has cancer.


          Note:
          The question "What do you do?" can be answered with "When? My job, right now, is Xyyz, with Csdb. But I'm really interested in Frst, and Fsty." Follow with (1) "What are you interested in?" or (2) "What do you think about Fsty?" and you're on your way to a relationship, instead of staring at your feet trying to figure out what to say next.


          *** Guru hat off ***


          - - - what would a Guru hat look like?

          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Mon, August 30, 2010 - 4:56 PM
            It is true that the full contribution that any human being has to offer cannot be captured within the confines of a single profession.
  • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

    Sun, August 29, 2010 - 2:34 PM


    Upon close examination it appears the star Rigel is actually closer to my Sun than Saturn.

    Having a star as ones guiding "Planet" seems a bit odd. . . but Rigel is not a bad deal.

    According to Ptolemy, Rigel has a nature of Jupiter + Saturn. Robson says it provides inventive, mechanical abilities, plus benevolence, honor, and often, wealth.

    Am looking forward to the wealth part. Hasn't shown up yet.

    • Unsu...
       

      Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

      Sun, August 29, 2010 - 5:45 PM
      I like your idea of trying for the closest fixed star.

      Maybe Achernar will hold out better than vesta ... although it seems that there is some
      degree of overlap in the areas vesta and Achernar are involved with.

      Well - maybe this is all silly - can you really choose your guide in such a way?
      I think it's worth trying ... but whether or not its possible is another thing entirely.
      • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

        Sat, October 30, 2010 - 9:25 AM
        Can chiron be a scout planet.?
        I dont think I should consider saturn in my chart?? It s almost setting..

        Doesnt someone have a few lines on chiron a s scout planet? :(
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

          Sat, October 30, 2010 - 2:35 PM
          Here ya go:-)

          www.zanestein.com/scout.htm

          Chiron as Guiding Planet
          The Planet of Oriental Appearance
          The Spearbearer
          The Guiding Planet
          The Scout Planet

          All of these terms refer to the first planet to rise right before the Sun. This body, no matter what it is, is a planet that gives us a direction, because it is the first part of ourselves we use to interact with the world, and then bring information back to integrate into our Sun to make plans. You can consider it as an agent of the Sun, something you use on a daily basis, something you use to conduct everyday affairs with, and has a lot to do with how you handle the immediate demands of life.
          Sometimes, we are not even conscious that this is how we handle things, but over time we can become quite adept at the use of this planet. Perhaps this is why the ancients considered the Oriental planet to be a vocational indicator, leading the Sun to its true expression.

          Along these lines, there are a number of contemporary astrologers that view this planet as what activates our motivation...what stirs our Will into action. A good example would be Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. Pluto was her Scout Planet, and she was drawn to psychology, to delving into the deepest motivations, and to trying to deal with that most Plutonian of all issues: death. Her approach was to tell the truth as she saw it, no reservations, no beating around the bush, no sugar coating.

          Michael R Meyer discusses this principle in detail,
          and even gives descriptions of all the traditional planets as Scout Planets.
          You can read his writings here:
          YOUR GUIDING PLANET
          SO WHAT ABOUT CHIRON HERE?
          As I see it, with Chiron as the Scout planet, a person is drawn to the untrod path, led by the urge to find passageways, doorways, bridges. There is an acute awareness of the woundedness around them, which leads to the urge to heal, or teach, or guide, or lead the way towards self-sufficiency. There is a maverick quality to the way the person handles day to day efforts. Not rebellious...that's Uranian. Rather, a person goes his own way, at his own speed, never concerned that others may be moving faster or slower, or going in a different direction. To quote Thoreau, "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer."

          • Re: Your Guiding/Oriental Planet

            Sat, October 30, 2010 - 11:06 PM
            >> person goes his own way, at his own speed, never concerned that others may be moving faster or slower<<
            Huh? Is that a polite way of saying ' lazy'....So long I thought I was lazy..I am supposed to submit a mega lengthy assignment on Wednesday .academics :-/
            but here I am digging astrology stuff..

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