I know this might sound like a silly beginner's questions, but I just can't get one thing:
How is it that trines, which are aspects formed between two planets of the same element and different Modality are considered the most harmonious of aspects, whereas squares - aspects formed between two planets of the same modality, but different elements - are considered the least harmonious?
I mean, theoretically, there's just as big a clash between different Modalities, as there is between different Elements, right? And yet, people who "trine" you, put you at ease, while people who "square" you, piss you off. Is it that trines have a hidden "evil side"? Some severe side-effects?
How is it that trines, which are aspects formed between two planets of the same element and different Modality are considered the most harmonious of aspects, whereas squares - aspects formed between two planets of the same modality, but different elements - are considered the least harmonious?
I mean, theoretically, there's just as big a clash between different Modalities, as there is between different Elements, right? And yet, people who "trine" you, put you at ease, while people who "square" you, piss you off. Is it that trines have a hidden "evil side"? Some severe side-effects?
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 1:49 PMI don't think that trines are nessecarily better than squares. You already said it in your original post. When one planet squares another they are in the same mode so what's wrong with that? I've heard astrologers say that each mode is expressed differently with each sign which is why there is a clash.
Like mutable signs for example. Pisces is flexable, Sagittarians wonder , Gemini's inconsistant, and Virgos mearly 'deal' with whatever they've been given.
When looking at planets in aspect to eachother I try and look at them not as trines, squares, or sextiles but as two planets' energies effecting eachother. Every aspect can be good and bad but it all depends on the planets involved. Let's say the venus trines saturn. Though a trine is technically a positive aspect, the energy of Saturn may restrict Venus.
I think your on to something here. No aspect is good or bad but some some planets do clash. -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 2:22 PMyes, but the thing is, when it comes to relationships you can really feel these work differently. For instance, so far, I can definitely say that Sag Moons(who may oppose my 3 Gemini planets, and square my 3 Pisces planets-the only Mutable sign that can do that to my chart) put me off, and always end up fighting with them.
On the other hand, I haven't met a single Cancer who doesn't put me at ease, and make me feel like I belong. Can't say the same for Scorpios, because they piss off my Gemini planets, and my Virgo Rising-in some ways.. -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 5:20 PMWell its difficult to pinpoint which signs we don't get alone with since everyone is mixed. Do you mean that you generally have a hard time getting along with Scorpio suns? Or people who have a heavy scorpio feel in their chart?
Gemini's do tend to be sociable creatures and if you are flooded with Gemini and Virgo energy (Mercury) then I can see why scorpio's may not appeal to you. I would think that Cancers are too clingy for Gemini types but maybe the Cancer people in your life have more "airy" components to their charts.
It's funny that you say Sagittarius moons piss you off. Up until now I've always thought that Sagittarius and Gemini are too signs that work very well together even though they naturally oppose eachother. Now we are brought back to the main point in question; do squares between charts indicate incompatibility? From what you've just told me I would say yes. -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:58 PMActually, I'm probably one of the least sociable people you could meet. I mean, I do have social tact, and I'm good at "small talk" and shallow socializing, but I'm the least willing to compromise when it comes to building social relations, and that's why, frequently, I appear to be labeled as "not sociable", or " unable to adapt" etc.
I basically haven't met anyone less willing to socialize than me. And the Scorpios are no exceptions. They, too, can be choosy when it comes to relations, but they eventually give in and learn to settle for less, unlike me, who would rather stay in solitude.
And I'm definitely talking about people with a lot of Scorpio influences. One of them is my dad. We literally come from different planets, and he's very Scorpio in temper and personality. He's actually a Cap Sun(which is again a quincunx for my Gemini planets, especially since his Sun is in 0 degree Capricorn, and my Gemini planets are in 0 degree, as well-that's a tight quincunx). But he's also a Scorpio Rising, with a Moon-Venus conjunction in Scorpio. To give you an idea, his energy is something like the military guy's in "American Beauty"-the one who "hates fags", and thinks "there are rules in life"-the next door neighbour-yep, that's very similar.
Then, there's this guy I knew in school, who always pissed me off, and also had the typical Scorpio traits(Sun, Mercury, Venus in Scorpio, Moon in Virgo-dunno the Rising). Oh, and his Moon squared my Gemini planets. Actually, there were several Scorpio guys I hated in school.
Also, about 4 Scorpio Sun girls I've met over the years-who, I admit, only had a Scorpio Sun, as far as I know-but I recognized the exact type of energy-and that's what I hated in each of them.
That constant meddling, suspiciousness and mistrust. And the demanding nature. As if they are the center of the Earth, or something, and everybody should explain themselves to them. The thing I hate most is feeling invaded, and most Scorpios-at least the immature types-tend to come across as invasive to me. And not to mention the fact that they take themselves waaay too seriously. Being all Mutable, I hardly take anything serious-everything is a game to me, and that's the way I like it. Typical Scorpios will try to convince me that it's a "flaw", and I can't stand people who try to change or "mold" me.
And with Sagittarians..well, it all goes well, up to a certain "boiling point"-for me, I mean-when it ends up in fighting. I dunno-maybe if I were "all Gemini", I would manage to get along with them, but I can distinctly feel the clash with my Pisces planets and Virgo Rising. They always come across as unemotional, "unpolished", brusque, and well...you get the picture. I'm too much of a pussy-cat to be rolling in the mud with dogs.
So, yes, squares, as far as I've noticed, definitely tend to show incompatibility of energies, especially when they happen between Sun, Moon, or Ascendant-since these are you most "vital", and unchangeable parts. The worst are squares between the Sun and Moon, as far as I've noticed. At least, in my case. I've known a few Sag Moons who just made me violently hateful towards them the moment I saw them. And I just think..it was mutual. Some influences are just too strong to control.
Oh, and I've also noticed the same type of hatefulness towards Virgos born in August, because their Sun squares my Moon(-and Mars, and Jupiter).
I generally find it very hard to get along with fire and water types. Especially fire. The reason is that both of these have very irrational tempers, and I find it very hard to respect that. As a highly "Mercurial" person, I have to make an effort to even consider irrational people. I just refuse to understand how some people give into their every urge and impulse, without ever questioning them.
Unless they make this conscious effort, most heavily watered and fired people come across as mere puppets in the "universal show". They may do great things, but you always wonder where were THEY in all those things? Their conscious selves? A person can only be a person if she has a conscious mind.
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 2:17 PMactually, Geminis also like being pampered every once in a while, and Cancers are the best in pampering. Cancer is a semi-sextile to my Gemini planets which is soothing, not irritating, like the Scorpio quincunx.
Well, dunno about "clingy". I actually see that as character and strength. The fact that they're so open about their feelings. Quite surprisingly, Cancers appear a lot more reliable than Scorpios. At least around the age of 20. This is the age when every girl wants a Cancer man, and every boy wants a Scorpio girlfriend.
Things change for the over 30s-every woman starts looking for a Scorpio, after Cancer got too obsessed with interior decorations and the perfect breakfast, and every man is searching for a Cancer woman, to settle down, or, better yet, to get away from the nagging, power-driven Scorpio wife. Meanwhile, Pisces people are still trying to tie their Virgos into marriage.
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 3:47 PMstephen arroyo came up with the best explanation on page 111 in his book, astrology karma and transformation...
This paragraph especially, but there is lots more and I am too lazy to type it all...
"in electrical wiring, a 3 phase current at 60 degrees spacing is the least stressful way of conducting energy through wires. This corresponds with the sextile (60 degrees) and trine (60 degreesx2) aspects in astrology. 90 degrees or 180 degrees wiring is very stressful and heats up the wire since there are peaks of too much voltage at times and none at other times. This type of wiring naturally corresponds with the square and opposition aspects, where we find that the energies within the individual flow erratically, sometimes operating in unison and sometimes creating mutual interference and static. This sort of alternation in energy flow has been characterized by C.E.O. carter as as "fitful" expression of energy; for sometimes the person has lots of the energy at his disposal, while other times he seems utterly depleted..." -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:59 PMyep, that's a good analogy. seems fair enough. longer distance travel when it comes to squares-the message is only half-sent.
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 5:34 PMI think an explanation of the same modality thing would be...it's the same way that two different people who have too similar a role won't get along. The energies are trying to do the same thing...only in different ways...and it causes stress. Example...with a cardinal square...both are trying to lead and initiate, only in different ways and maybe in different directions. Two different elements both trying to be leader. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Same with the other modalities...too much of a certain "way of being."
I love Stephen Arroyo and that book. That's a great analogy. -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 10:15 PMBut, of course, the squared energies can learn to work together...appreciating each other's differences and learning from each other and all that crap. It's just that the learning aspects are so irritating and stressful a lot of the time. -
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 3:16 PM"learning from each other and all that crap": Yes, squares are challenging, yet are the 'basis' for any growth within life. Through the apparent conflict this aspect denotes, one gaines insight into other modes (elements) of expression. It's very common in charts of great leaders and innovators. As Stephen Arrroyo demonstrates it has an on and off kind of vibe - periods of intense stimulation between the points involved (almost too much to endure) are alternated with periods of passive isolation.
The object of it, is a steady but sure building up of something that seems alien to the personality but has to manifest objectively within the persons life in order to initiate a more harmonious rhythm. The balancing of the energies involved - if consciously assimilated -
can create great opportunities and new ways of expression. Somewhat analogous of the work of Saturn; opening the way for Uranus.
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Re: Squares VS. Trines
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 12:01 AMSquares are by far more reliable and strong as aspects and even good for strong men.
However true, there is one problem as programs can not calculate the aspects apart from errors ranging from 3 to 70 degrees. Neptune Saturn squares are fairly reliable but Venus Moon aspects are surely not!