Yeah, I don't jack about Lillith other than the myth

Mine's in Aquarius.

I may be a ManLesbian

~V~

So I am supposed to fear Scorpio women? That's odd, I don't feel any fear, but I do feel a lot of attraction, and quite a bit of camaraderie with them. Would you be willing to take a look at my placement too? It's here:

i52.photobucket.com/albums/g...Blank.gif

*grin*

Thanks MaryEllen....

I'll have to give some thought as to how to interpret that.

~V~

Mem,

I found this article not to long ago on the web thats pretty intresting... (in that first artilce that fear of woman that drives you over the edge... I don't understand, I am crused with thinking outloud, and would put that woman in her place ..... as if it were any man who were that way too!!) I'll amit though, it is usally the opposite way. I am a traditionalist at heart, no doubts, and some of the most wildest personalities are attracted to me, but I got some sort of mellowing effect, as they can never find a reason to be pissed at me :P !!! (Well not for long) Right now I am living with a sweetheart who has Lilith conjuct her 7th house cusp Aquarius, opposed to Pluto in Leo.

Thank you very much Mem for that infomation. Everytime I try to study anything on Lilith, it is always in Dutch or in French. I have been casting astrology charts since I was 8 years old, and I do make some money on the side off of it, but mostly all my clients are Europeans. It was some of my astro buddies over there that stressed my lilith, but kept on telling me to read books not in English... CONSPERICY!!! I CRY CONSPERICY!!! lol

Laugher is the way I connect my Soul with my Spirit, when you have nothing else to loose, all you got left is laugher :).

-NOW THIS IS ALL AN ARTICLE -
(beginning isn't pasted)
www.antonialangsdorf.de/dateie...say.php

The astrological and psychological interpretation is mainly based on the story of Lilith as Adams first wife who preferred a wild and free existence in the land of the demons to the illusory idyll of paradise. Important for the interpretation is the moment of pain and revenge: Lilith had been punished just because she acted in a free and self-determined way. In her pain and anger, she takes revenge on Adam, symbolizing all the men. She also took revenge on Eve, symbolizing all the nice, servile women who betray their ideals of freedom and equality by adapting themselves to the male demands. In a way, Eve was smarter than Lilith in all her radical honesty: Eve acted nice and servile, but later she seduced Adam to try the apple from the forbidden tree - and than shared a life outside of paradise with him. Thus, Lilith also stands for a form of independence, that may cause some loneliness or force the chart-owner to get in with the wrong crowd, symbolized by the demons. In the traditional astrological literature about the black moon, Lilith is mostly described as representing the dark part of the female being. She appears as a demonic, dark goddess, as a destrucitve, psychic trouble-maker, the ultimate femme fatale, the mean seducer, she is a rogue, she wants revenge, she kills the newborn - really a very diabolic image. A good example for a typical Lilith figure is the biblical tale of Salome, the daughter of Herod. With her power of seduction and intrigue she caused the horrible dead of John the Baptist by decapitation.

1.3.The view has changed
Meanwhile, this one-sided view of Lilith has changed. Women's Liberation and the evolution of society in general, but also the rediscovery of the power of nature and the new belief in witchcraft and old rituals - all that opens up new ways for us to get Lilith out of her life in the shadow and integrate her into ours. For me the new picture of Lilith shows best in the process of birth, which is the most original female action altogether. It's a very painful process with very earthy feelings but at the same time something highly spiritual, an incredible break-through. A natural birth shows many clichés of darkness: It's full of blood, painful, slimy, frightening, archaic and - out of control! You have to use very rough chemical or physical methods to intervene in the process of birth. The delivery releases enormous power which the woman has to surrender to. We should not forget that not long ago every birth was a matter of life and death and that the woman at childbirth had a high risk to die or to lose her child. In addition, mother and child have to take the first, far-reaching step to separation, until birth, they shared one body. For the newborn, it's the first step into future independence. When the woman holds the child in her arms, we have the picture of the exhausted, yet happy euphoric mother in great relief. A transformation happened: From the animal like, earthy woman who drives out the child into the bad world into the lovely mother Mary.

If you take the rhythm of the Lilith-cycle you find that it takes approx. 9 years (8 Years and 311 days to be exact) to cross all signs and in each sign, Lilith stays for exactly 9 months. This indicates Lilith's strong relation to the female pregnancy period of time. There also seems to be a relationship with the nodal axis: One Lilith cycle is approximately half a nodal cycle. And whereas the nodal axis results from the lunar orbit crossing the ecliptic, Lilith results from the lunar orbit revolving the earth.

1.4. The female power
I believe that Lilith represents one part of the female trinity: The original, earthy and unspoiled part, the female power as such. Besides Eve, the symbol of the wife, the companion of the man and Mary, the idealized mother, Lilith reflects just that, which man cannot tame and which he - especially the male - therefore with all his might tried to suppress and to demonize. The separation of women into the holy and the whore is still common - and of course, Lilith plays the part of the whore here - the part which men and society desire and need but at the same time fear and repress. I think Lilith also represents the witches and the magic women, the midwifes and the wise women of the Middle Ages, who had been ostracized or killed because of their knowledge of contraception, birth and health care. Lilith as a witch was burnt at the stake, Lilith becomes ritually circumcised and deprived of her clitoris, Lilith has been covered up in the burka among the Taliban. The modern, western world uses medicine, personal hygiene and science as an excuse for the attempt to tame Lilith and to put her out of action: Women are systematically treated in a way to get them out of the habit of listening to their body and using their natural instincts. A good example are frightening methods of pre-natal care that make the pregnant women wax in the hands of the doctors instead of enabling them to discover the strength of their bodies. I do not deny that cesarean section saved countless lives of childbearing women - but the decision for this method is often made in a haste or it turns out to be redundant altogether. There are many more unnecessary manipulations of the birth process that deprive the woman from the chance to experience birth as a source of strength. And last but not least the pill! Three decades of experience with the pill have shown, that this male invention brought sexual freedom at the woman's expense: The pill works in a way that separates the woman from her natural body feelings and throws her off her hormonal and emotional balance. Women who take the pill pay for their sexual freedom with extremely heavy physical and mental side-effects. A very important threshold in the life of a woman is when she gets her first period. In modern society, there exists no appropriate ritual to help the girl in this phase, it has become purely a medical and hygienic problem. Each mother stands on her own how to handle it and the chance for a great initiation is gone. Besides, it's popular to ridicule the goddess: The blue testing fluid in the advertising for tampons and panty liners, feminine spray and other hygienic excesses are likely to offend the goddess and minimize her power.

A more optimistic picture
I will now try to paint a more positive, modern picture of Lilith. In my view, she represents a combination of the magic power of the dark goddess, the female instinct and the endeavor to be equal to the male. In the female chart, the embodiment of the ideal Lilith seems to be the woman, who is strong and consciously using her instincts, who is in monthly contact with her own blood, who takes control of her sexual power, who knows the rhythms of her body and controls contraception and pregnancy, whether she wants children or not, and if so, has no fear to give birth and experience this tour de force as a source of female strength. In the sexual act, she is sometimes above the male and sometimes below, just goes with the flow in the free interplay of forces between her and her partner. It's pretty obvious that a woman like that experiences conflicts when she gets into company with traditional-minded women and insecure men. She has to find her own way to live her forces in relationships and society.

The ideal Lilith has her effect on the male chart by making him attracted and attractive to strong women. A fair contact with proud and impressive women is no problem for him. A sign for a positive development of Lilith in the male horoscope seems to be, that more and more men get involved in the adventure of being there at child-birth, to consciously accompany their partner, to stand at her side throughout this deeply touching experience and to remain strong in the face of this female initiation. A typical remark of somebody with underdeveloped Lilith-forces concerning birth would be: "No I can't look at it - I wouldn't be able to feel sexual desire for my partner any more!"

No Illusions
But even with this more positive picture we should not have any illusions about the fact, that experiences with transiting as well as natal Lilith are often connected to feelings of pain and agony. That brings us back to the myth: Lilith cannot forget, that she was punished and tortured just because she wanted to act freely and according to her own will. That shows why Lilith often brings us into contact with uncontrollable emotions, desire for revenge and frightening sides of sexuality: That is whenever we got to the point where we had to give in, because as children we were in an inferior position or as adults we may have suppressed our true being because of social pressure, cowardice or indolence. However: Transiting Lilith confronts us with the pain that appears because we realize that we didn't live out our true nature - because we didn't want or were not allowed to be who we really are. This also seems to have a connection to the issue of homosexuality - especially when it's hidden or suppressed. In this case Lilith forces the chart-owner to stand by himself and be honest about his sexual preferences. My colleague Lianella Livaldi-Laun who has been working with Lilith for more then 10 years and has published two books about the black moon, mentions several cases in which Lilith in the male horoscope may indicate a hidden or obvious homosexuality and the fight to for acceptance.

1.5. Natal Lilith
Concerning natal Lilith, I have noticed, that she is very strong in artists horoscopes. In general, we find her dominant in the charts of powerful, creative, personalities who live a life apart from social norms and conventions, quite successfully but yet vulnerable or sensitive in their feelings. They tend to have unconventional relationships ore end up living as a maverick because they are not willing to make any compromise. In the chart of women who have Lilith in hard aspects to the moon or in the 5th house she may also indicate general problems with pregnancy and childbirth - either the chart-owner suffers from miscarriage or she does not want to be pregnant or is afraid of motherhood.

1.6. Transiting Lilith
Transiting Lilith often brings experiences of pain or loss. I observed that she plays her part in miscarriage, abortion, childlessness as well as acts of violence or fateful death. I also assume that she may be involved with rape. But in contact with Lilith we can also have the most incredible experiences of initiation and as we know from the esoteric teaching, initiation is rarely a funny and relaxed event!

1.7. Lilith in relationships
Lilith is no joke in relationships! Most people are not conscious about the forces of the goddess, much less, having integrated them. Thus, a date under the influence of Lilith may grow into a dangerous liaison, into painful, intense, obsessive or strange love affairs. Often it's a matter of male or female self-esteem, of power and powerlessness and of radical break-through. Lilith often uncovers hidden structures of suppression and confronts the partners with their true desires which they haven't lived out. If you look at Lilith under the aspect of being radically honest about your sexuality and your true feelings, its obviously not easy to get along in peace and harmony in a relationship when she is dominant.

2. Lilith in the houses

/…/

2.5. Lilith in the 9th house
Lilith in the 9th house finds response in society. Here her instinctive self-assertiveness is motivated religiously, philosophically or politically. We find here the demand of the 9th house, that society should take over one's own behavior as a main thread or perspective. Basically, Lilith is as a very personal, charismatic energy, and if you act it out in the 9th house it may also lead to fanaticism or dogmatism. You turn your own view into the leading ideology and with Lilith you express this with much charisma, even to the degree of being dangerous. So we find Lilith in 9 in the chart of Adolf Hitler. Christian Klar, one of the heads of the former German terrorist group RAF had Lilith in 9. Interesting is also, that iron Lady Margaret Thatcher had Lilith in the house of politics. Prince Charles, whose political and philosophical abitions do not amuse the queen, has his Lilith in 9. And a great artist with Lilith in 9 confronted us in his powerful paintings with strange new perspectives: Salvador Dali.

The most impressive Lilith case I have in my collection also shows Lilith in the 9th house. The name of the chart-owner is Marianne Bachmeier. In her life the goddess showed in a highly emotional, archaic and tragic way. The story is terrible, yet poetic. Marianne Bachmeier became famous because she shot the murderer of her daughter in the courtroom. Two films had been made of her story. She became the secret idol for victimized mothers and children, an avenging angel, a heroine. Violence was a central thread in her life, starting in her childhood. As a girl, she was raped and became pregnant. They put her into a children's home and she had to give the child away for adoption. In this facility, she was raped a second time with ensuing pregnancy and again had to give away the child. In the age of 23 she gave birth to her daughter Anna. Then the ultimate horror: At the age of 7, Anna was killed in a sex crime. The perpetrator had been caught and one year later the incredible happened: During the trial, Marianne Bachmeier calmly stood up, pulled out a pistol she had smuggled and fired eight shots at the offender. Six bullets hit his back. Afterwards, she said into the silence: " I wanted to make sure I kill him. Actually I wanted to shoot him in the face" and let security arrest her without any resistance. With this act she became a public heroine. The sentence was mild: 6 Years for manslaughter and they let her go after three years. At the age of 43 she got cancer. She was working at terminal care at that time. She died at the age of 46. She had asked a friend of hers who was a journalist to accompany her dying with the camera.

In the Chart we find Lilith here at the cusp of the 9th house in conjunction with mercury, squaring Pluto and in Trine with the moon. Mars at the ascendant tells us something about the potential for violence in this life, here he stands for the unconditional acting on emotional impulses. If we are generous with the orbs we also identify a grand trine between Mars/IC, Lilith/Mercury and the moon. Among other things, the 9th house is also relevant for justice. And it points to the outside, into society. For Marianne Bachmeier, her desire for revenge was more than a personal feeling. She didn't shoot the murderer in the heat of the moment. In conjunction with Mercury, Lilith acted well-planned here. And Bachmeier wanted to tell and show the world what she was doing. Indeed this act had something grand, philosophical, Jupiter-like, because Marianne took revenge symbolically for all mothers who ever experienced the terrible loss of a child by crime. She acted in a way others may have dreamt of but wouldn't dare to. Of course its strictly forbidden to take the law in ones own hands. But her act was very popular and she had - appropriate to the 9th house - made her self an executor for a real public demand in the face of the most dreadful of crimes - sex crime against children. Becoming a hero by an act of violence - this is in the chart also expressed within the square between Lilith in 9 and Pluto in 11.

Let's also take a look at the charts of the events in this case. If we take the synastry between Mariannes birth chart and the murder of her daughter, we see transiting Lilith in the 1st house at the south node, forming a square with natal Uranus. At the same time, the Sun activated natal Lilith and her square to natal Pluto.

The day Marianne took revenge we see destiny at work with the nodes on the MC-Ascendant-axis and in T-Square to Lilith. Interesting as well is the trine to Venus at the cusp of 11: Maybe an indicator for the positive resonance by women? And if you watch the new moon constellation squaring the Ascendant you have a symbol for the great power of renewal that the act probably had for Marianne.

Compared to Mariannes natal chart, we find that the trine between Lilith and Venus also reaches natal Jupiter: For Marianne, this murder was deeply meaningful. I think that the nodal axis with north node here in 11 also had some impact on the natal Square between Lilith and Pluto. In addition, we have the current Mars at the DC opposing the natal Mars-Ascendant-conjunction and in sextile to the Lilith-Mercury conjunction - that probably increased Mariannes readiness for active violence. The square from Neptune probably symbolized the fantasies that preceded the final act. The stellium of planets in the 6th house may have pointed out that for Marianne this act was essential, a need for survive. The square from transiting Pluto to natal Moon also indicates that here a fate was sealed. And even terminator Saturn was involved: We find him in conjunction with Jupiter at the south node. When 14 years later, Saturn hit the north node, it was exactly when Marianne passed away. That shows once again that you would never watch Lilith isolated. But as in all the cases shown here, she is the clue to a deeper understanding of the story.

www.antonialangsdorf.de/dateie...say.php

I have lilth in the eighth house in Gemini -I am not sure that fear is a good word for lilth.
Lilth seems pretty alluring and magnetic rather than fearful, perhaps the undercurrents of its tide and potential for control is what I am aware of and with it I become a little wary and just little curious at the same time

I just got totally confused with all this Lilith stuff, part from gathering that it is an archetype that sems to fulfil a need to find a femme fatale type somewhere.

My Demetra Geoge gives me an asteroid called Lilith, I have forgotten where mine is though. But this ellipsis information makes me want to ask aquestion - is this about saome kind of a midpoint between Moon, Sun and Earth, or between the nodes? Is that what the other Liliths are about?

Damn Mem!!! Right on target lol......

I have seen way too many deaths, too many to count to be honest. The theme of death has never effected me, when I was younger I got into a bad car accident and the doctor told me my family was all dead. None of us suffered any longterm damage, my brother had half his skull reconstructed .... 3 fire signs shouldn't be in the same car. I was raised with a Sagittarius Mother and Father, Leo Sister, and Aries brother, always wondered what gives me the energy to handle such conflict of energy. The lilith thing makes sense, as I started to learn astrology when I was 8 years old, wanting to be a holy man one day lol... The symbol of Uranus attracted me to the book.

I have very open relationships with alot of people, and extremely private ones. Most of the time, people like to ask my opition about things, as I always seem to be sloving something else for someone else. Nothing crazy, or extreme happens in my life, because my mind is able to see a pattern formed, so I slowly adapt to the change, to the point where you can't tell no difference.

I see the Lilith energy as my more rebelious energy then Uranus, before I found out about Lilith, I just got done doing a huge research on her. Uranus stands out, distorys the structure... Lilith is a fox that wears the sheeps hide..... lol

I have been having the strangest luck the last few days while thinking about Lilith. I found my ID, some clothes my room mate lost, and I got a bigger paycheck then usual.

Allan

Usually when I read the Lilith definitions I keep the cultural biases in mind and apply their definitions across the board, ignoring the sexism.
~~~~

I use that same filter in sorting through the Lilith info :)

love all-ways,
mem

>Lilith personality is very anti-establishment, an attitude many cultures wouldn't want coming from men or women<

Right-o. Agreed. These absolutist gender assignments are bullshit. It has different connotations in male and female charts, the exact quality of which we are trying discern. Men and women may be required to use it different ways in order to stay within the status quo...but Lilith is Lilith and people are people.

Maybe with a Yod involving Lilith, I have serious Lilith issues sometimes.
A Yod IS afterall, sometimes called a "finger of fate". Maybe I'm afraid of fatefully ending up with a woman who is as I described above, in my last post. Maybe my Lilith in the 10th House has to do with being wary of being involved with a woman who uses me for personal gain, or who tries to usurp or subvert mine.

I would think that would be more neptune, the illusion which also rules actors, film etc as a distancing from the real core fear issue within.

Come back a month later, and read this gesh!!!

I LOVED IT lol I agree with it 100%... I can totally relate to that, FJ you are right. The coulda, shoulda, wouldas.... I don't live in that world, as I am not focused towards judgement, with Lilith, Venus, North Node, and Pallas Athene in Venuses other home, Taurus. I tend to think in the same terms, but at a lower level, as I keep it contained.

With that yod of Venus and Saturn, towards Lilith, your cup is filled with Mars. That shows a contained pattern also. With the Moon in Scorpio, what can I say isn't it lovely lol.... I tend to like the Mars-Saturn types, over the Plutos. Just reading your response gave me great insight, and I would like to share some with you too!! It's the wolf inside of me lol....

But first I need to complete a thought, In my own natal chart... I got Juno at 0 Libra, and Vesta at 22 Libra... Pallas Athene 16 Taurus.... And then Ceres, the only one not in a Venus ruled sign... in Cancer at 5 degrees, conjuct to Sun, Mars, the degree of the Sun-Mars midpoint, and in the 10th house, complemented by Moon in Virgo 12th house at 5 degrees. Oh yeah and Neptune at 2 Capricorn 4th house, and Pluto at 2 Scorpio 2nd house.

If Ceres is the ascendant of the Moon, then in my case... My outer personality to my Virgo Moon is in Cancer. I must put on one hell of a show!!! As my Mercury happens to be in Cancer also. Why do I bother to fool myself... Ceres plays with Sun - Mars - Pluto... and a mystic rectangle with Ceres - Sun - Neptune - Pluto - Lilith - Mars. 5 Planets in Water, 4 in Earth...

What I know about Ceres....

I know that Ceres is a primal goddess, who was a planet,
debunked to an asteroid, followed towards Plutos discovery as a
planet, closed off as being "debunked" to a planetoid... While Ceres,
finally got reconized as a planetoid.... Maybe it is Ceres time to
shine....Ceres walked all night and day with a tourch in her
hands....as she is one of the goddesses who actually lives on
earth....Shouldn't darkness be complemented by light, of the night and
of the day? We all need peirods of complete darkness, as artifical light can effect the
Vampye hormones, Melatonion... in the pital gland.

Morning Star-Evening Star debate.... Taurus-Libra

Now back to that configuration I was talking about... sorry about that long thought. Cancer Saturn, and Venus is in Scorpio.. with Mars and Lilith in Aries. I remember reading Moon in Scorpio too, so Mars is in Retrograde....Because the Sun couldn't have been that close to Mars. Because this is a closed pattern, all of it expresses itself fluently.

This is without the houses, so this is all the action, without the stage.... good enough for me...
Venus in Scorpio is going to show a strong urge towards commited relationships because the Pluto in Libra, and the Mars Retro in Aries. This shows me that you keep your private views to yourself, and are willing to work around situations, regardless of whats ahead. You directly tell people your independence, and tell them how to work with it, giving them clues on how to interact with you to get a response. When a sterotype offends you, what else is to do but express it, and people who know you, will see a totally different side of you.

It isn't about control, or power. It is in relationship to giving and taking, the connection of the Saturn in Cancer with the Venus-Moon in Scorpio, Libra Pluto, Aries Mars.

Virgo and Scorpio are complement signs, as their energy goes together. Virgo is about making order out of chaos, and Scorpio is about making chaos out of order. Now if I think on that one for awhile, I start to notice that them energies work extremely well, even more-so then Scorpio with Capricorn. I can guess you have a planet in Virgo somewhere.... I am trying to think about what the Cancer Saturn ppls charts look like lol, I think that the planets were tracking the Sun, so Mercury is in Virgo by any chance?

That Saturn gives you the ability to handle that strong Mars signature, as with the Pluto in Libra, and Mars in Aries...because of Saturns relationship with Libra, and the Moon.

You defend the Justice of not putting judgement on infomation, Saturn hasn't entered into Libra to place judgement... WOLF!!! And if you happen to be a last degree Leo Saturn... you can change the bent of expression, to be just living.... As Mars in Aries, and a Leo Saturn, with the Venus and Moon in Scorpio, there is more of an urge towards becoming self-centered, as the relationship between the fixed signs is Ego. The Lilith now would play a larger role.... as the Lilith in Aries (where the Sun is exalted), would be related to rebirth, or recycling persay...Lilith doesn't denie pro-creation....Powerful woman might be a bit more passive around you, and willing to work with you, because you express your own securty.

With the planets layed out like that, you might get fourtine from others misfourtine, or be able to build on other peoples failed ideas, and that is an awsome gift!!!

Allan

I would say a man lilith would be called Saturn or Uranus. We already understand those.

Hi Gwynna ~

Great synopsis! I've been researching Lilith & I agree with the way that you 'levelled' the different Liliths ~ I have a question about the difference between your Dark Moon & Black Moon Liliths (I tend to refer to them as DMLilith & BMLilith ~ but they still confuse me!)....

what do you see as different between the "blank focus of the moon's orbit" & the "moon's apogee point"?

www.astro.com isn't very clear on the subject, using both 'black' & 'dark' to describe the same point:

The Moon travels along an elliptical path around the Earth. An ellipse has two focal points, and the other focal point, not occupied by the Earth has been called the Dark Moon, the Black Moon or Lilith. This is a slightly simplified definition, since, actually, the Moon and the Earth both move around their common centre of gravity, and the path of the Moon is not a neat ellipse, but a rather wobbly affair.
www.astro.com/astrology/in_lilith_e.htm

from what I have found ~ I think you are describing two different Liliths, but are using one astronomical definition ~ split in two. As far as I know (which ISN'T very far! ~ I'm back at the drawing board, again, with this) DMLilith is the second, hypothetical & controversial second moon of earth....

I'm super interested in other peoples' (especially astrologers & people who know something of Lilith) reactions and/or differing interpretations on all of this..... I'm not really looking for one 'right' answer as much as noting the 'field/cloud of possibilities' surrounding the singularity called 'Lilith'

love all-ways,
mem

I think its hard to get a definition because I think Lilith is so personal and has such a multifacited personality. Either way she behaves in a way that's a little out of the norm of society or very independent, strong and fiesty. Personally I think Lilith embodies a strong and fiesty energy that is very independant and won't let anyone get away with anything (or something in particular). I think she is the epitome of independence more so than Uranus. Uranus is a charmer, salesman, quirky, a scientist whose independence and weirdness, is just accepted because of his other traits-Uranus is soceity-approved quirkiness, society-approved independence. Lilith is not, therefore I think Lilith is *more independent* or at least stronger about her independence.

Uranus uses his magic, his charisma and charm and personality to "get away" with such independence. I don't think Lilith gives a damn. She's very in your face and real. Why should I have to change or pretend she asks? She may have magic but she will be whatever she wants and not play those soceital Libra games or Uranian rules of magic and pleasing and charm. She will be as independent and as strong and fiesty and as different even if it means she is the only one-with an energy and almost vengence that can't be explained. I think she expects to be the only one. This is not accepted. This isn't what society wants. This isn't really not fair to Lilith. But I think she's real enough to understand life isn't fair and all pretty, esp. if you want to be yourself and real.

Personally my bf's lilith is in conj. my Vesta, MC, n. node and my Lilith (conj. Venus) is in his first house but far from his Asc. I haven't seen what you're seeing, but we all know it's up to the charts involved. Also, I think Lilith throws something else in. I think she has a very individual approach. Because she isn't easily accpeted socially, esp. in certain societies or with certain persons because of their upbringing, HOW A PERSON HANDLES LILITH, will show how it effects them AS WELL as their chart and aspects within it. She isn't accepted socially so I think she deals with *individuals* in society instead.

Sherpa in one posts said that she is standing outside the world f*cking with us, or something to that nature. I think I might have commented that I think she's more like Pluto, that she is eventually helpful but she's real and can be painful. Also I may have said that since she is "outside of the world" or was kicked out she now prefers to deal with people *individually* in order to make changes- unlike Pluto who can change entire masses because of the slowness of his transit. I think Lilith is strong in certain individuals and uses these individuals to make a societal changes, to change society so that it is more equal to her liking. And perhaps because of this want to create a change she is very individual WITH EVERYONE. Either way she is individual with everyone. All of this is why I say Lilith is very personal and one on one. I think she works with you and *how you take her* can warp or improve your understanding of her and yourself-your own Lilith, as well as relationships with others. Many in astrology out there feel that Lilith's influence on relationships is underrated.

examples of what?

if you read back in the thread, I have read 3 different people's charts with respect to Lilith & 2 of them have confirmed my readings so far

love all-ways,
mem

This seems like a broad generalization of Lilith (and also women) based exclusively on your mother, which reads to me like a very dangerous way of thinking. It's certainly terrible that your mother was like that, but generalizations of others based upon one person's failings are usually pretty rocky terrain.

I have a hard time believing Lilith is ALL bad. It seems like there are a variety of ways - which have been discussed - in which she could function in a positive manner. I'm certain these are not always the case, in terms of how she functions, but I am unwilling to accept a completely negative interpretation, either.

Maybe some of this is stubborn refusal based on fear, because BMLilith is 2 deg. conjunct my Ascendant, so I feel like she must be something very personal to me, even though I don't understand her yet... I would very much like to, but I'm not going to embrace an "evil woman" stereotype in order to do so, even if I must accept many negative/dark characteristics.

I feel like I always bring these things back to myself (me, me, me, blah...), but if anyone has any ideas about what BMLilith conjunct a person's own Ascendant (or just in the 1st house, even) would suggest, I would deeply appreciate hearing... I read a lot of the same keywords about BMLilith, but can't seem to form a clear picture of what her impact would be like for me. I have gathered that, on the Ascendant, she might make me appear very unapproachable or mysterious or dangerous (the latter of which is certainly not how I see myself, though some "unapproachablility" is undeniable). She completely eludes me, overall, however. I feel like I'm missing something essential in order to interpret this position, and it's sort of aggravating, because it feels like it would be so insightful to understand her...

Lilith represents our Anima/Animus figure when it comes to relationships and our Shadow when it some to our Selves.

B ~

Lilith in Virgo, 10th house:

LILITH IN VIRGO blurs objectivity and lets you express criticism at wrong places/times, perhaps. You simply don't want to commit yourself, and are very orientationless regarding occupation and partnership. Other people may get confused by you because this confusing position produces paradoxes in almost all areas of life. You perhaps tend hopelessly between commitment and an urge for autonomy, between social contacts and retreat from them. On the other hand, psychological and analytic abilities are almost unsurpassably strong, and your intuition beats everything. Unfortunately the possibility exists that you are not conscious about your abilities, or that you don't want to admit them.

LILITH IN THE 10th HOUSE lets you gladly manipulate other people. You strive for fame, power, and status, but may not recognize the side effects of these things, or you recognize them, but suppress and/or don't admit to them at the same time. The result can be problems, restrictions and, in the long run, bitterness and discord, which you are sure to consider an interference factor in your life. Either you don't accept that another one has power over you, or you are not conscious about others that use their power to disadvantage you at all. You are likely to be constantly in conflict with authority figures, if you are aware of this, because you need much freedom. You also could avoid partnerships or allow them to exist only on a friendship level. Your demands are probably much too high, and you overload yourself with responsibilities within the areas of partnership and public relations. This position tempts to taboo breaking, to a questioning of conventions, and attraction to undemocratic social structures.

from nmazca.com/coeli/lilith.htm


I didn't bother to try & figure out which Lilith you are referring to, as these interpretations are pretty general anyways & IMO a conjunction of 7 degrees is too large of an orb to use with Lilith ~ I would use 3 degrees at a maximum & consider the fact that there are a few different values (mean, true & interpolated) that can be calculated

love all-ways,
mem

Hi Alex ~

Yes, it does sound like you have some Lilith issues ~ but, I also see some moon/Cancer issues & IMO it would be 'easier' to start there in untangling all of that. Here's a newsletter I regularly receive ~ this one mostly concerns Cancer ~ even tho most people identify with one physical gender ~ everyone is actually a mix of both masculine & feminine energy ~ it seems to me that not only are you estranged from your mother, but you are also having difficulties with your own feminine polarity ~ right now is a *perfect* time to start making peace within yourself ~ I hope this helps!

CANCER - THE FEMININE POLARITY OF MY SOUL
by Guru Rattana, Ph.D.
June 21, 2009


SKY EVENTS
~~~~~~~~~~~
The SUN enters CANCER June 20 at 10:48 PM PDT (June 21 at 5:48 AM GMT)

The SUN enters LEO July 22 at 9:36 AM PDT (4:36 PM GMT)

JUNE 22 - CANCER NEW MOON 1 degree at 12:36 PM PDT (7:36 PM GMT)

JULY 7 - CAPRICORN FULL MOON - LUNAR ECLIPSE at 15 degrees 2:22 AM PDT (9:22 AM GMT)

JULY 21-22 - CANCER NEW MOON - SOLAR ECLIPSE at 29 degrees 7:36 PM PDT (July 22 at 2:36 AM GMT)

MAY 28 - NEPTUNE went RETROGRADE at 28 degrees Aquarius and will go direct November 4.

JUNE 30 - URANUS goes RETROGRADE at 27 degrees Pisces and returns direct December 1.

JUPITER is RETROGRADE June 15 through October 11.

PLUTO is RETROGRADE April 4 through September 11.


I. COSMIC IMPERATIVES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CANCER NEW MOONS

There are two Cancer new moons this year. The first is June 22 at 1 degree Cancer. The second is a solar eclipse July 21-22 at 29 degrees Cancer. Two new moons are in the same sign signify an evolutionary awakening in the domain of that archetype. The potent second new moon, which is also a total solar eclipse and a SuperMoon, induces a major transformation in consciousness.

Ruled by the ever-changing Moon and the first water sign, the Cancer archetype embodies the sacred feminine. Cancer represents the Goddess and the female polarity of the universe and our soul. These two new moons plus the Capricorn full moon/ lunar eclipse (July 7) are major markers for the re-emergence of the empowered feminine.


EVOLUTIONARY AWAKENING

Embracing the highest expressions of the Divine Feminine is no longer wishful thinking. It is an evolutionary imperative. The energy is available, and embodying the feminine polarity of our soul is required to successfully move into the Aquarian age. The shift that is upon us is not the take over of the feminine at the expense of the masculine. The evolutionary imperative is to get in touch with and learn to express the highest qualities of both the male and female polarities of our soul. We must go deep into our own psyche to weed out the dysfunctions of both energies and to pull up the functional faculties that make it possible to live heart-centered and contributory lives.

It is the inner synergy of the two basic universal energies in our psyche that make it possible for both men and women to experience wholeness. Both men and women must recalibrate their psyche. To become conscious human beings we must both do our inner work to activate and integrate the qualities and gifts of the two polarities. The truth is that to establish a deeper more authentic relationship with our inner feminine, a deeper more authentic relationship with our inner masculine is necessary.

Our inner transformation makes it possible to reach an understanding of the past, to resolve longstanding issues and to achieve a degree of empowerment and freedom that we have not experienced before. Change or be changed is the underlying message. Either way, the result will be a shift in perception, a change in direction and the birth a new paradigm of reality. The more we expand our inner reality, the more possibilities become available in our outer reality. And the richer and more satisfying our lives become.


A NEW PARADIGM

A new paradigm is emerging because universal and Earth energies are changing. We are moving into the Aquarian age. And the Earth's vibration is moving up to the frequency of the heart chakra. As the energy shifts, we are all being supported in our personal transformation. The year 2012 is the date given for the transition into the Aquarian age. The world will not end! What will end is the energetic underpinning for the old way of thinking and doing things. The exploitation, domination and control of the masses by an elite, greedy patriarchy is losing its grip. We are already looking at things differently.

The energetic grid on the planet is changing, and we must change with it. The more we resist, the more we experience confusion and create pain for ourselves. To align with the higher frequencies, we have to learn how to embody, to live and to create in the new energy field. To do so we have to do our inner work and adjust our life style to the demands of the times. We must also participate by sharing our gifts.

To birth a new paradigm, we have to become conscious, to acknowledge our shadow and to bring the light of consciousness into that which we have denied, abused and neglected. We must upgrade our connection with and the expression of both the male and female polarities of our soul. We must develop the consciousness function of our mind (male polarity) to be able to embrace the feeling function of our physical and emotional bodies - the female polarity of our soul.


CANCER AND THE DIVINE FEMININE

In the northern hemisphere at the summer solstice and in the southern hemisphere at the winter solstice, the Sun envelops us in yin, mother Cancer energy. Cancer teaches us that inner connection is required to nurture our soul. The Cancer archetype is about creating a loving environment to protect and nourish our soul and its creations.

Cancer represents the womb. Ruled by the Moon, Cancer expresses our ever-changing watery emotions. Our moods and feelings unfold like the cycle of creation. The creative cycle invariably moves from conception, to incubation, birth, growth, maturity, growing old and completion. The Cancer archetype embodies the mysteries of birth, creation, evolution and death.

The Cancer archetype is associated with the goddess and the Divine Mother. These Cancer new moons are part of the evolutionary movement toward re-introducing the goddess archetype into our psyche. This shift transcends gender issues and relationship quibbles. This is not about a man/woman supremacy battle. This is part of the evolutionary process to relate to the Divine in terms of both its male and female qualities.


THE BALSAMIC HUSH

Three nights before every new moon, the Moon disappears. During this Balsamic phase there is no moon. We are in the dark, while we make the transition from the old to the new. A similar phenomenon happens as we shift astrological ages. Until 2012 we are in the 'Balsamic phase' at the end of the Piscean age. During this transition time we may seem lost in the dark and challenged to find a new path to the light.

This is an opportune time to look into the darkness of our unconscious and to find our hidden and unexpressed male and feminine qualities. While the Sun is in Cancer, we are supported in giving value to and deeply experiencing our
(1) innate sensitivities,
(2) our emotions,
(3) our feelings and
(4) our instinctual awareness that communicates for the feminine polarity of our soul.


THE STABLE NEUTRAL MALE POLARITY

It is most interesting that the Sabian symbol for this new moon - 2 degrees Cancer is "A man on a magic carpet hovers over a large area of land; the ability to expand one's consciousness by stabilizing one's point of view at a higher level." *(1) This describes the essential essence of the male polarity - expanded consciousness, stable, higher level of awareness, the observer. We must develop these qualities in our neutral mind to embrace our inner feminine.

The re-emergence of the elevated expression of the male polarity is energetically supported by the rare rendezvous of JUPITER, CHIRON, and NEPTUNE in Aquarius. This conjunction was exact at the Gemini new moon May 24. These 3 planets meet in Aquarius only once every few thousand years. *(2) The focused energy of a conjunction signals the ending a cycle and the birth of a new era.

The effects of this conjunction are extended through February 2010, while the three planets are within 10 degrees of each other. Aquarius embodies mental/male energy and expresses the highest qualities of the male polarity - freedom, unity and equality. The water bearer is the vessel for the down pouring of knowledge, wisdom and innovative ideas from the universal mind.


CAPRICORN FULL MOON LUNAR ECLIPSE - JULY 7

Eclipses are extra powerful full and new moons. "The more precise the planetary alignment, the more concentrated is the electromagnetic channel and the clearer the pathways for transformation." *(3) During a lunar eclipse, the Earth blocks the solar radiation to the Moon. The energetic blackout dissolves and changes energy patterns and expands our consciousness.

Eclipses intensify the effects of full and new moons. Optimally Full moons create the possibility of synergy between the two complementary signs. However, to get us to this state of integration, Full moons also serve the function of exposing the shadow side of the signs of the Sun and the Moon.


CANCER AND CAPRICORN SHADOWS

Cancer's shadow or immature expressions include
(1) wounded emotions that control and sabotage our best intentions,
(2) inability to be direct and honest,
(3) trying to get our needs met by sacrifice and indirect communication, and
(4) denial of and inability to appropriately express and use the energy of our emotions.

Our emotions are energy in motion. If this primal energy of our soul does not flow freely and if we do not embody it through conscious feeling in our body, it stagnates and creates dis-ease and stress. During a full moon our repressed emotions surface as extreme moods, intense anxiety and sometimes violence. The emotions embody the water element which cleanses, receives, stores and releases energy. There is abundant power in our emotions. Our challenge is to learn to use this energy productively.

The dark side or shadow of Capricorn includes
(1) irresponsibility,
(2) miss use of authority,
(3) the need to control, dominate and be number one,
(4) shame,
(5) blame and
(6) guilt.

This full moon/lunar eclipse brings to our attention the negative and immature expressions of both the male and the female energies. It also alerts us to the need to return to the higher expressions of the two polarities of our soul. The less desirable expressions of the male polarity have dominated, controlled, manipulated and exploited the Earth and our psyche for millennium. This situation must and will change!


CREATING A NEW INNER PARADIGM

Although Capricorn has been co-opted by the patriarchy as male, both Capricorn and Cancer are feminine, yin signs. These two complementary signs work together to nurture, protect and serve life. This lunar eclipse directs us to try another formula based on integrity, equality, cooperation, compassion and caring, and to let go of greed, domination, control and fear. The message is that we must build a sustainable, equitable and caring future.

We can each contribute to building a new world by relating to ourselves differently. To create a new inner paradigm we can start by treating our inner feminine (our body, emotions and feelings) with compassion, kindness and caring.


II. Inner Feminine Awakening
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EMBRACING OUR FEMININE POLARITY

To embrace the feminine polarity of our soul, we must train ourselves to be in the feeling flow of the energy of our emotional body. It is an on-going process to get to know, befriend and love our feelings and emotional body.

Below I summarize some of the essential steps to direct your awareness (male) and feeling faculty (female) to embrace and embody your feelings and the feminine polarity of your soul.


[1] Neutral Mind

Move into your neutral mind. (I have covered this in Guru Rattana On-line lessons and in previous NMBeings.)

Connect with your awareness of pure consciousness - the clear, open space in your mind.

Tune into and focus on the qualities of neutrality, non-judgment, stillness and stability.


[2] Observer Pays Attention

Use the observer faculty of your neutral mind to pay attention to what you are feeling, without judging. Judgment and the lack of attention are two of the main ways that our mind (inner male) abuses our emotional body (inner female.)

Be very attentive to the state of your emotional body. You may notice painful feelings, which indicates some form of trapped negative emotion, i.e. fear in your emotional body.

No stories! Stories, analysis, judgment all take you back to your rational mind. And then you are no longer paying attention to your feelings. Our female polarity does not like that!


[3] Identify Your Fear

There are many forms of fear. The pain of fear can be felt as impatience, anxiety, restlessness, irritation, unease, dread, depressed, annoyed, hurt, anger, rage, defensiveness, need to be right, aggressiveness, lack, incompleteness, neediness, possessiveness.

Sometimes it is useful to identify our fear or to label our feelings so we can identify what is going on in our emotional body. This is especially useful in the beginning to move us out of denial of our primal emotions - fear, anxiety, sadness, anger.

Be very careful, not to judge, analyze, evaluate, try to rationalize or make up stories about what you feel. Our goal is simply to recognize and be honest about the nature of our feelings and to acknowledge how we are currently expressing fear.


[4] Acknowledge Your Feelings

Be honest and truthful. In the initial phases of this process, rarely do we feel comfortable with what we feel in our body. We feel some form of fear.

The good news is that our feelings are always changing. Stay with them and watch how they shift. Sometimes simply by paying attention, the discomfort disappears.

Our emotional body will not go away, either by ignoring it or by escaping into our rational mind. Our mental stories and thoughts feed and perpetuate the pain.

Being in our neutral mind is essential, but not the entire solution. Watching, acknowledging and accepting (male polarity) it is not enough. We must move into allowing and feeling (our female polarity) to completely embrace our emotions.


[5] Listen Deeply

Listen deeply. Isolate and identify each sound that you hear.

Listen to the sounds within the sounds.

Listening opens up your feeling faculty.

Feel the vibration of the sounds in your body.


[6] Allow Your Feelings

Move from neutral observing to allowing. Allowing releases resistance and opens the space for your e-motional energy to flow. Allowing requires being deeply present to your feelings.

Allowing is a major breakthrough. Allowing is a feminine function. We move from mental observation to feeling connection with our emotional body.


[7] FEEL and EXPERIENCE Your Emotions and Feelings

In an allowing mode, FEEL and EXPERIENCE the energy that is your emotional body. The pain we feel in our emotional body is our resistance (non-allowing) and our life force that is bound up in fear.

Go deeply into each sensation.

Go back to sensations and feel their subtle attributes.

Feel the feelings within the feelings.

Allow every feeling. Some feelings will be uncomfortable. Feel them anyway.

Turn your awareness to the feelings that you avoid.

Feel and listen attentively to those feelings.

Notice how you block certain feelings and how you escape into your mind and exit your body. When your mind wanders, simply return your attention to feeling various parts of your body.

Continue isolating, allowing and being with every feeling/sensation for as long as your attention permits and until you notice shifts.


[8] Rhythmic Exercises

Do rhythmic exercises and breathing to bring your emotional body in to a rhythmic flow.

Our liberated feminine polarity is rhythmic and flowing. Our emotional energy gets unstuck and releases into aliveness through moving in a rhythmic, flowing manner. Spinal flexes are a great exercise to generate the feeling of rocking yourself as a child. Shaking and dancing also help loosen up the stuck energy.

Spinal rotations and heart twists are also easy and effective rhythmic exercises. Do every moving exercise (and walking) with a rhythm that soothes your body. Do moving exercises in a loving way that generates pleasurable feelings in your body.


[9] Bring Light into Your Feelings

Bring the light of consciousness to your emotional body. Do so by being present to the Light in your mind and expanding this light to include your physical and feeling bodies. Do so also by going deeply into neutral, stillness, stability and silence and feeling these essence energies embrace your body and feelings.


[10] Kindness and Self-love

Befriending our emotional body requires being kind to ourselves. The most effective and absolutely necessary emotional work that we can do is to be KIND, GENTLE AND LOVING with ourselves. In self-kindness we become aware of our subtle energies, and they begin to relax and flow.


Use the above directives (not all at once) during your Kundalini yoga practice. Set your intention while the Sun is in Cancer to embrace and embody the feminine polarity of our soul. Enjoy the process of awakening the goddess within.


REFERENCES AND FOOTNOTES
Austin, Stephanie, 'Cancer New Moon - June 22,' 'Capricorn Lunar Eclipse - July 7,' 'Cancer Solar Eclipse - July 21-22,' The Mountain Astrologer, June/July 2009, Issue #145, pages 102-4.
1. Austin, p. 103
2. Austin, p. 103
3. Austin, p. 103
***
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love all-ways,
mem