Hi all.
I would normally not post a deep personal issue such as this one on the web. I'd rather prefer to work it out on my own. But it seems as this Pluto-problem is too deep to figure out for myself. So I am hoping, with this, that some of you could shed some light on this for me.
All of my life, I've had deep problems with self-assertion (or rather lack thereof), which I tend to think is, if not entirely, than at least a great part of Pluto being placed in Libra, the sign of "we, us" in the 11th house, the house of groups, organizations, friends, etc. I always have great problems relaxing and letting my true self out whenever I am around several people, as in part of a group or such. I was like this as a child, and I'm like this today. My parents, friends, school teachers, etc. would always just settle with the conclusion that I was "shy" and leave it with that. I found myself pretty much left me on my own throughout my entire childhood and youth. Which is kind of understandable, as I did always withdraw into myself - but I really think this tendency from my parents and teachers (adults in general) did me more harm than good. Because I honestly don't think it's about shyness - I know and understand myself very well (for the most part anyway), and I don't see myself as a particuarly shy person in general. It's rather that, for reasons beyond my own comprehension, I just don't seem to *function* when I have to interact with many people, say at work, school, or wherever I may find myself. It's like I'm paralyzed, and withdraws instinctively into myself. As if I prefer to stay invisible, free to observe the world around me from my own private corners. The problem is, this is starting to cause trouble, as people seem to be almost a little afraid of me... Which hurts, because I know very well that their impression of me is wrong, yet I don't know how to fix it. Generally I tend to be quite practical about all matters: to every problem, there is a solution. Anything can be overcome. However, in this case I have no idea how to overcome this problem. I don't even know what the actual problem is, or where it comes from!
I know that I make a very good first impression on people, and I'm usually comfortable on a one-on-one basis. But when it comes to, say lunch-time at work, and we all sit around the same table and everyone else chats and are being social, I just zoom out. Withdraw... Unable to get myself to relax and interact on equal basis with the rest. I'd like to blend in with all of them, but I just can't... Don't know how... So then I just sit there, feeling VERY self-aware, entirely out of place, and eventually I begin to notice very well when other's initial enthusiasm towards me fades and they become wary around me instead. After such instances I always end up loathing myself. Confidence is shattered, faith in myself is non-existent... It's a vicious cycle indeed, and it's taking too much of my energy to constantly worry about this. I just need it to end. Soon!
Mind you; it seems as though my entire chart speaks of self-assertion and withdrawal, ieg:
- Mars in Capricorn square Saturn in Libra - Saturn blocks Mars' natural expression
- Scorpio Rising - often exerts a serious, intense outlook (this may be what scares people)
- Moon in Scorpio - deeply emotional, needs to stay in control of a situation.
- Lilith is also in Libra, 11th house. (Could she be conjunct Pluto? Pluto at 23 degrees, Lilith at 27. If no, than they are both unaspected.)
- All of my planets span from the 10th to the 2nd house, meaning that all of my planets can be found around the ascendant. This alone would suggests that I generally don't NEED a whole lot of people around me at all times, and that I'm comfortable with my own company. Which is true. But it's not on its own a reason for all the social anxiety I seem to possess.
OK, this post turned out longer than I ment for it to, but in conclusion - I guess what I'm asking is: How does one attack, get to the bottom of, and over-come a Pluto problem??
If any of you have taken the time to read through all of this, than thank you for your patience, lol. And any advice and / or insight is much appreciated.
Mona
I would normally not post a deep personal issue such as this one on the web. I'd rather prefer to work it out on my own. But it seems as this Pluto-problem is too deep to figure out for myself. So I am hoping, with this, that some of you could shed some light on this for me.
All of my life, I've had deep problems with self-assertion (or rather lack thereof), which I tend to think is, if not entirely, than at least a great part of Pluto being placed in Libra, the sign of "we, us" in the 11th house, the house of groups, organizations, friends, etc. I always have great problems relaxing and letting my true self out whenever I am around several people, as in part of a group or such. I was like this as a child, and I'm like this today. My parents, friends, school teachers, etc. would always just settle with the conclusion that I was "shy" and leave it with that. I found myself pretty much left me on my own throughout my entire childhood and youth. Which is kind of understandable, as I did always withdraw into myself - but I really think this tendency from my parents and teachers (adults in general) did me more harm than good. Because I honestly don't think it's about shyness - I know and understand myself very well (for the most part anyway), and I don't see myself as a particuarly shy person in general. It's rather that, for reasons beyond my own comprehension, I just don't seem to *function* when I have to interact with many people, say at work, school, or wherever I may find myself. It's like I'm paralyzed, and withdraws instinctively into myself. As if I prefer to stay invisible, free to observe the world around me from my own private corners. The problem is, this is starting to cause trouble, as people seem to be almost a little afraid of me... Which hurts, because I know very well that their impression of me is wrong, yet I don't know how to fix it. Generally I tend to be quite practical about all matters: to every problem, there is a solution. Anything can be overcome. However, in this case I have no idea how to overcome this problem. I don't even know what the actual problem is, or where it comes from!
I know that I make a very good first impression on people, and I'm usually comfortable on a one-on-one basis. But when it comes to, say lunch-time at work, and we all sit around the same table and everyone else chats and are being social, I just zoom out. Withdraw... Unable to get myself to relax and interact on equal basis with the rest. I'd like to blend in with all of them, but I just can't... Don't know how... So then I just sit there, feeling VERY self-aware, entirely out of place, and eventually I begin to notice very well when other's initial enthusiasm towards me fades and they become wary around me instead. After such instances I always end up loathing myself. Confidence is shattered, faith in myself is non-existent... It's a vicious cycle indeed, and it's taking too much of my energy to constantly worry about this. I just need it to end. Soon!
Mind you; it seems as though my entire chart speaks of self-assertion and withdrawal, ieg:
- Mars in Capricorn square Saturn in Libra - Saturn blocks Mars' natural expression
- Scorpio Rising - often exerts a serious, intense outlook (this may be what scares people)
- Moon in Scorpio - deeply emotional, needs to stay in control of a situation.
- Lilith is also in Libra, 11th house. (Could she be conjunct Pluto? Pluto at 23 degrees, Lilith at 27. If no, than they are both unaspected.)
- All of my planets span from the 10th to the 2nd house, meaning that all of my planets can be found around the ascendant. This alone would suggests that I generally don't NEED a whole lot of people around me at all times, and that I'm comfortable with my own company. Which is true. But it's not on its own a reason for all the social anxiety I seem to possess.
OK, this post turned out longer than I ment for it to, but in conclusion - I guess what I'm asking is: How does one attack, get to the bottom of, and over-come a Pluto problem??
If any of you have taken the time to read through all of this, than thank you for your patience, lol. And any advice and / or insight is much appreciated.
Mona
posted by:
|
Norway
|
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 5:36 AMI am not going to pretend to have all he answers, Mona, just make one or two small suggestions. I don't think it is uncommon for some people to be ok relating one-to-one with others but be less able to interract well in groups. Could it be more a question of being to hold attention on a lot of different people satisfactorily?
I met a woman once hwo old me she was strictly one-to-one on first meeting her, that she could not deal with groups....in fact, what I noticed in the end that in her own unobtrusive way, she was very good at getting to be the very hub of a group and tended to be very much in control of what happened. She, incidentally, was an Aquarius Sun with Moon-Saturn in Taurus.
OK, your Pluto rules your chart and it is in the 11th, though I knowit might turn up in a different house in different house systems.
I wonder if this is not more to do with your 11th House ruler - unless i gets to be intercepted in other house systems - being placed in Scorpio (again) in the more withdrawen 12th House?
And I wold be curious to know what you mean by your 'true' self here? True . or an ideal kind of self that you would like to be minus the inhibitions that bother you?
My point there is that it might be better to work and accept with what you have got. Those squares between Jupiter-Saturn to Mars might suggest that there could be one or two more 'shoulds' than necessary over what is the most assertive way to behave - but maybe these should should be yours, rather than thoseof an expternal authority.
I also notice that you have a hugely-tenanted 1st House - Sun and Moon both here, and Uranus as well as Mercury rising! That in itself makes me feel that it is no wonder that the whole area of self-expression might be one that might preoccupy you a lot - this is the natural domain of the 1st House and your Sun and Moon alone are in two very different signs, never mind that fact that Moon, Uranus and Mercur together might make rather incompatible bedfellows - the Moon wanted to adapt in a senstivie and feeling way to others, Mercury and Uranus taking a far more analytical approach.
Then, I see that in fact your Moon is not just conjunct Mercury and Uranus, but right on their midpoint! (this incidentally, could be 'good' for you if you wish to develop your skills as an astrologer). I wonder if in fact, feelings and thoughts might not tend to get in the way of each other, so that somehow you might space out or shut off, once emotions become too strong. If this does ring a bell, then maybe it could be a question of understanding yourself a little better so that you can pace yorself before things get too overwhelming socially. But as said, these are just suggestions.
Maybe, however, in the end you are simply someone who prefers more depth to your interractions than most.
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 9:07 AMMona, I don't have anything in my 11th house and I am similar to you.
For you, it could be the Scorpio influence, as some Scorpios tend to withdraw, sort of a self-protective measure.
I don't know what the heck my problem is, but I've been this way since a child, also. I'm not shy on the internet at all, though.
Were you ever bullied as a kid? perhaps by a group? That can create a childhood fear of groups. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 11:03 AMatleast u dont have saturn in sag conjunct mars in sag. .like myself...
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, November 28, 2007 - 11:07 AMMona,
I'm usually quiet in groups but do very well one on one. In my early twenties I used to think there was something wrong with me, but then one day I decided to relax about it. Once I learned to relax I realized that I'm quiet in groups because group conversations usually don't interest me. This may be a Scorpio quality, Scorpio being more comfortable with intimacy than most and less patient with trivialities. Funny thing though is that once I learned to relax in groups I found myself to have a feel for the well-timed comment or joke. It was simply a matter of self-acceptance.
There are some similarities between our charts (you can see mine in the photos section of my profile). I'm a Scorpio Sun with Sagittarius rising and all of my personal planets, like yours, are in the Eastern hemisphere. That would make us more attuned to inner life, or development of self, than social interaction. That's fine with me.
Here are a couple of quotes that I try to remember when I begin to feel like a social alien:
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a sick society." Krishnamurti
"I want to be with ones who know secret things, or else alone." Rumi
Relax and own who you are.
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:26 AMI am Sun conjunct Pluto in Virgo in the 11th and after analyzing this thoroughly, I would suggest that you simply embrace the fact that you prefer intimacy to groups. I do, as well and you will seldom see me enjoying myself, unless there is some sort of depth and intimacy involved. I want to find that topic that we can plunge into, together, and of course, analyze ad nauseum.
There are definitely some more people like us, so just seek them out, even when you are in a group. Or, bring an intimate partner to a group situation so both needs can be fulfilled, simultaneously. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 10:21 AMAnxiety expresses a natural reaction to reaching a personal uncertainty threshold for how much unknown we can permit before we wig out. And Pluto represents a highly complex interaction between the personal ego and the transpersonal reality of impermanence.
Pluto's natal placement in any House can also bring its own unique anxiety response, as it represents a specific type of power each of us potentially weilds yet may not feel ready to take full responsibility for. in the 11th House, Pluto represents the power to impact the community; this is mover and shaker power. As with any Pluto placement, we are called to level with power -- to define it in our own terms -- and face our fates as political creatures.
Planets in the 11th House represent who we are in the village, the character we play in relation to society, groups and our circles of friends. The 11th House Pluto symbolizes the social catalyst and the power to trigger change and evolution in any group this person participates in. In other words, whether you accept your influence (power) or not, it's still there. You can deny your social influence or become intimidated by your own power (anxiety) but there's no escaping Puto.
The 11th House Pluto role of social catalyst also carries a kind of shamanic capacity for healing demonstrated by the way others are magnetized to the native when they are in social crisis, ie., banished, persecuted, heartbroken, and otherwise roaming the bardo limbo states of being inbetween lives or jobs or relationships. There can be a compassionate quality to the 11th House Pluto person that fully allows for the crisis and changes in others.
The 11th House Pluto also represents a tendency for molting social realities, of outgrowing friendships and group involvements that fail to grow alongside the growing needs and imperatives of your own personal evolution. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 2:39 AMThanks all for the sober, insightful responses, particularly Sherpa's. I am always projecting my rubbish onto society at large, but understand better now that taking the bull by the horns is no longer a choice. Having the courage to face ones destiny is liberating for oneself and others. (And what are others, but a part of oneself?) -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Thu, May 1, 2008 - 5:06 PMwww.youtube.com/watch
This song seems descriptive at times .
I have Pluto in the 11th house . I can't say that I have social anxiety -but rather at times its more like social dispair.
Sherpa -how astute of you .
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 11:46 PM<Anxiety expresses a natural reaction to reaching a personal uncertainty threshold for how much unknown we can permit before we wig out> wonderfully put as usual :-)
-
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 6:45 PMPluto is currently transiting my 11th house. Couple this with transiting Neptune fairly near my natal ascendant, which scatters glitter and glamour over my sense of self as projected and perceived by others, it can be made into an advantage.
Pluto has opened up many opportunities for me to be involved with friends and groups of people who truly resonate with who I am as a person as opposed to just trivial acquaintances. Having a lot of Pluto and Scorpio influences in my chart, I would demand a certain level of intimacy even in intellectual conversations with friends.
Pluto brings out the deepest darkest facets of who you are and when placed in the 11th house, it is reflected onto you by a bunch of likeminded and/ or kindred friends. And because this placement tends to make you attract those who resonate with you on a very raw and core level, you would have really no choice but to be REAL as well. It is one thing for one person to pick up your insecurities when in a one on one conversation and another thing for a whole group of people to reflect these to you in a chorus! And as social animals, we tend to want to conform to the clique, but Pluto asks us to examine to what extent and whether you are moving away from yourself as you do so? Pluto will give you an opportunity to remain part of a group, even if you are a little different than the norm within that group. Ultimately all lessons point to the fact that we should be comfortable in our own skins and accept ourselves for who we are.
I agree with Sherpa that since Pluto is also the planet of transformation, you may find yourself shedding people and acquaintances who no longer serve you. Sometimes they just fade away like people sometimes do, sometimes a conflict arises requiring a solution and then a sudden departure. If you allow this to happen, new friends will come into your circle, or you would stumble upon groups of people, societies, organisations that will resonate better to who you really are. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 11:41 PMAlways so clear! Thanks Lady Saber for another great post!
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 5:41 PMJust thought the second to last paragraph pertained to you.
www.dkfoundation.co.uk/BookKa...e11.htm
Pluto
Pluto in the 11th House indicates that the soul is coming to understand group energy. Over the course of many lifetimes it will experience the power, which the group can bestow upon its members and the freedom, which it can deny the individual. The position of the Sun will afford clues as to how a person with Pluto in H11 perceives the group in the current lifetime:
When the Sun is in the houses of Universal consciousness then Pluto is likely to indicate a positive attitude towards the power conferring attributes of the group. Such personalities demonstrate a willingness to toe the party line and accept the price to be paid for access to group resources. This combination can produce inflexible attitudes and great intolerance and insensitivity in personal relationships. It can produce, however, leaders of enormous vision and persuasiveness.
When the Sun is in the houses of Personal and Relative consciousness, however, Pluto in H11 is likely to create an awareness of the group’s capacity to overwhelm the individual, because personalities with this placement of the Sun tend to be deeply suspicious of groups and movements. If ever they do become involved Pluto is likely to produce abruptly severed connections on the grounds that the commitment was intrusive or invasive. Friendships and their relationships with their children can also be affected by their intransigent refusal to be pressured into accepting something they cannot approve.
People with Pluto in H11 demonstrate a great awareness of the power of propa ganda and techniques of mass persuasion, and even when they are repelled they are usually also fascinated. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 11:11 PMFascinating! Thanks for this post and the link.
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:53 PMI too have pluto in the 11th house in libra, and scorpio rising, and I relate to almost everything you're saying.
I keep waiting to outgrow my "awkward phase" - but, I'm going to be 35 in a few days, so I guess it's not a phase. It takes me a long, long time to relax around people and I also am not good with asserting myself unless I am infuriated - then my anger pushes me through. But just plain asserting myself in a reasonable way is a major accomplishment for me when it actually happens. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:42 AM<--The same exact way. Scorp rising, Pluto in the 11th (if i remember correctly) in Libra. I'm terrible at asserting myself, definitely in relationships even. It always becomes a problem when my needs aren't being met and it takes a nuclear meltdown for me to demand my due.
I hate parties because I don't like the idea of standing in the middle of a room, having no one to talk to and pretending I'm having a good time. The thing is...i just don't wanna talk to strangers. I don't like impeding on conversations, and the odds are, I'm not going to be interested in anything they have to say. it's even hard for me to go with a good friend to a place where there are strangers, because I'm afraid she'll bail and leave me to be the wallflower (and she does @.@).
It's just our way, I think. i'm sure there's a purpose for it, but it just doesn't fit in with what people think we 'should' be like. There's this belief that there's something wrong with not being a social butterfly...there isn't. It's just our way. When our generation comes into power, it'll be less of an oddity and more of a commonplace thing. -
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 8:41 AMTo quote Spiderman..lol.. "With great Power come great Responsibility"
I'm wondering about Saturn. the usual culprit for Anxiety, and it relationship w/ the Pluto placement.
I can see this Power causing a tentativeness of it’s user.
Like a new driver with the keys to a monster truck. A bit Intimidating
Having the Scorpio Asc. Power is not something wielded without a healthy control.
Also look for Mars and it’s relationship, for maybe how an assertiveness is handled.
-
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 2:27 AMmy Pluto is in the 8th and i have terrible social anxiety as well.
i'm very introverted and i prefer to avoid practically any social situation i can.
going out makes me extremely anxious and on edge.
i don't want to see anyone i know and i don't like talking to people.
-
-
Re: Pluto in the 11th and social anxiety
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 5:37 AMHey Christa, your post sounds like something i would write :)
I too have terrible social anxiety ,always feel like im holding my breath when i go amongs the people.
OK,sometimes its not so bad, but sometimes i dont like walking across the centar, where is crowded , so i walk trough side streets.
Seeing a lot of people around makes me feel very uncomtherbal, and someties i cant stand seeing even just another human being, its like he is a threat to me, so i rather avoid them. And when im talking to to people im usually nervus, have bunch a nervus ticks,and cant never comunicate in relaxed way im always tenced, and cant shake that feeling off for some time affter i meet people,so it sucks.
Dont know if pluto cause this, its in the fifth house conjunct sun, maybe its something elese,maybe scorpio moon -absorbing to much peoples energies, putting too too much meaning in their facial mime, but its probabaly just the way i am with no reall chart justification.
-
