Advertisement or not, and why?

topic posted Sun, May 7, 2006 - 5:49 PM by  ed
hello, im a moon in scorpio so technically im very suspicious, although some if not most of the moon in scorpio traits apply to me, and astrology has shed light on my inner workings, i cant help but wonder if its just coincidental.

so, i looked up some rebuttle against astrology and it came up with this.

There have been several studies that have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can�t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor. Even the former First Lady of the United States, Nancy Reagan, and her husband, Ronald, consulted an astrologer while he was the leader of the free world, demonstrating once again that astrologers have more influence than the stars do.

The most popular form of traditional Western astrology is sun sign astrology, the kind found in the horoscopes of many daily newspapers. A horoscope is an astrological forecast. The term is also used to describe a map of the zodiac at the time of one�s birth. The zodiac is divided into twelve zones of the sky, each named after the constellation that originally fell within its zone (Taurus, Leo, etc.). The apparent paths of the sun, the moon, and the major planets all fall within the zodiac. Because of the precession of the equinoxes, the equinox and solstice points have each moved westward about 30 degrees in the last 2,000 years. Thus, the zodiacal constellations named in ancient times no longer correspond to the segments of the zodiac represented by their signs. In short, had you been born at the same time on the same day of the year 2,000 years ago, you would have been born under a different sign.

Claudius Ptolemy, an astronomer and astrologer-in his day there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology-around 140 AD compiled the Tetrabiblos, which even today remains the most important work on astrology to most astrologers, in the west. In the time of Ptolemy the study of the stars was already very ancient, and at least 40 of the currently generally accepted 88 constellations were already named. In fact, Ptolemy even knew about the precession of the equinoxes, since the vernal equinox (the first day of spring) in his time occurred at the beginning of Aries and not in the middle of the constellation Taurus, as it had many millennia before his time. Today, as was mentioned above, the first day of spring occurs when the sun is in Pisces, and the relative position of the sun on this date is slowly processing, or moving, into Aquarius. Perhaps we are approaching the age of Aquarius, whatever that may mean. In fact, Ptolemy no doubt could have calculated all of this information from the data given in the Tetrabiblos and the Almagest. I doubt that he thought that astrologers would be using his 140 AD table almost 2,000 years later without processing (adjusting) them.

what are your taughts on this?

for myself, ive always had a fascination for astrology, and i too wondered about my sun signs forecat on the newspaper but i knew it misses sometimes more often than not. and then i stumbled upon the natal chart which goes on to say that each heavenly bodies has an "effect" on my being, yes i could agree with that, but also im a thinker and i think could it be just my interpretation of it, i believe in it thats why what it says on paper is what i percieve in the real world and vice versa, i also wonder why i dont get along with certain sun signs, and i get along with people with certain sun sign, i really dont know, magical thinking or entertainment purposes thats what the disclamer is.

but its strange how i can pick out some people and say to them that they are virgos becoz they look well groomed and clean, mind you there is a 1 in 12 chance of getting it right.
posted by:
offline ed
New Zealand
  • PL
    offline 3

    Re: or not, and why?

    Sun, May 7, 2006 - 6:24 PM
    This question gets asked a lot, with the same examples.....I think it's up to whoever, like religion (though I don't think of astrology as a religion). Everybody makes up their own mind. I'm still open to it being a bunch of BS, but I haven't seen that yet.
    Have you looked up Gauquelin?
  • Unsu...

    Re: or not, and why?

    Sun, May 7, 2006 - 6:54 PM

    re: "what are your taughts on this? "

    what i have taught myself is this: i do not believe in astrology but i use it because it works. it seems to work whether i believe in it or not and so, i use it without making it into a belief system. it seems to work best for me as a language. the purpose of any language is to facilitate communication, between people but also within oneself.
  • Re: or not, and why?

    Sun, May 7, 2006 - 8:04 PM
    ed, there are some aspects of astrology that could be explained away by the suggestability of people, but there are others that which just don't fit that scenario. Some examples of actual physical interpretations that could not be viewed as subjective:

    1. Doing the chart for someone I did not know, I noticed his Progressed Mercury, in the sixth house, had just progressed to a station. With the aspects it was making, a transiting aspect of Mercury to the ruler of his sixth house, and some very recent transits, I concluded that the gentleman had very recently become aware of a serious breathing condition or lung problem, and even gave a date when the gentleman was most likely to have become aware of this. When I mentioned this, I was told that the person had come from the doctor on the date I gave, officially diagnosed with emphysema.

    2. Looking at the chart of a person with Mars in Taurus in the 10th exactly square the Leo Ascendant, I mentioned that this person would have a visible scar on the face, and sure enough, she had one right on the forehead from a childhood incident.

    As for character analysis, one of my favorite examples may not be conclusive proof of astrology over subjectivity, but does add some weight to the objective value of the star-science. This goes back to the 1980's..........

    I had been receiving astronomical data and tables from a quite noted astronomer, very respected in his field. I was using them, of course, for astrological research, but there was nothing astrological about the information he was providing. After a few years of getting data from him, I wrote to him telling him I would like to do something for him to thank him, could I do his chart as a gift? He replied as follows: While I appreciate the spirit of your offer, my first impulse is to decline, because I think you know me well enough by now that your analysis could be influenced, however subconsciously it might be. But after thinking about it, I have another idea, if you wouldn't mind. I would like to propose that I send you birth data on two people, known very well to me, but tell you nothing about them. In this way, your analysis can be based only on astrology, and nothing else." I was happy to agree, and wrote out very detailed reports on the two people once I had the birth data. The only thing he told me about them, other than the data, was that one of them was male, the other female.

    Several days after I mailed him the reports, the astronomer sent back a reply, as follows:
    "The chart for the female was for my wife, and she was quite enthused, feeling that you had been right about everything. But of course she was being very subjective. The other chart was for my assistant at the observatory, Dr. ________. After reading your interpretations of both charts, I saw many things that could not simply be a matter of chance. Therefore, I must grudgingly admit that your analysis in both cases was about 85% accurate."

  • Re: or not, and why?

    Sun, May 7, 2006 - 10:19 PM
    If you told me 15 years ago that I would be studying astrology now ~ I wouldn't have believed you. I was brought up on a steady diet of all things scientific, was the only girl in my high school to take honors chemistry, studied neuroscience in school & got my teaching certificate to teach high school science. I wanted to share my enthusiasm for science with as many people as possible.....

    As I was setting up my new PC, I noticed an astrology program included in the package, so I decided to check it out, not expecting much. I was totally blown away! After entering in my birth data, I was completely amazed at the charts & readings quickly generated & I was schocked by the accuracy of my natal chart reading.... I stood, staring at the 'missing piece' of my psychologically-oriented puzzle!

    I was a 6X Scorpio & even the cookbook style program was able to nail certain parts of my personality that I had assumed were just my 'quirky' streak & rebellious attitude. I had gone so far to accept that I was most likely dysfunctional on some level. I definately had always had some non-mainstream interests that my family & friends had often attemped to counsel me out of 'for my own good' ~ my mother had often accused me of having a 'death wish' & I'd even admit that my rather morbid & eccentric interests were 'prolly the result of some psychological issues/problems, but I didn't really want to 'fix' them, regardless ~ evidence I was definately not 'well-adjusted'.

    I had a professional astrology reading within that first year & was overjoyed to realize that I was not 'dysfunctional' ~ in fact I was highly-functional! ~ even with all the rational social pressure to conform to the manistream & my own half-hearted attempts to focus on more 'socially acceptable' topics, I would always return to my dark interests & that was just the way I was built! My reading lasted for over 6 hours ~ I cried a few times & it was by far the best therapy session I had ever had. The weath of information was mind-boggling! What a useful tool!

    This redefinition of myself as 'healthy' & personal permission to explore the parts of myself that I had partially supressed was very empowering & opened up huge new areas of serious study & exploration for me. The more I learned about astrology, the more fascinated I was by this art, science, tool, language, philosophy. It seemed that most skeptics of astrology had taken gross mis-representations of the ancient art to disprove it's validity. I was outraged at how astrology had been overlooked as a valuable tool for self-discovery & research over blatant mis-undertandings, over-generalizations & poorly designed scientific studies.

    The esoteric philosophy of astrology questioned my long-held beliefs in the superiority of scientific thought that I held so dear & (I thought) had gotten me to this point in my life. I was delighted to find that my scientific knowledge was only strengthened by placing Western scientific theory in its more appropriate place as a highly useful, but incomplete philosophy & method of organizing reality, rather than the pinnacle of modern development & un-questioned laws of the Universe (I was a bit embarrassed to realize how religious my scientific concepts had gotten). I happily added more perspectives to my overall understanding of the world around me & more tools to my experimental toolbox & it was more than clear to me that these new perspectives were only adding to my skills, talents, wisdom & personal success at dealing with my environment.

    I still loved science, but astrology was clueing me into my underdeveloped creative, artistic & poetic side. I had become quite clinical & dry, thinking my whole life that I was much better suited to scientific pursuits than creative ones. I had finally found an access point that worked wonders for me. I quickly learned much astrology, Tarot & kabbalistic philosophy. Even doing Tarot card readings with a book in hand, I was freaking out & impressing bunches of my friends with my beginning card readings.

    I combined my love of quantum physics with psychic phenomena to explain that the Univere was holographic ~ each sub-divided part containing the instruction set for the whole ~ the way that all body cells (with a few exceptions, of course) contain the whole DNA genome even though only a small portion of the DNA code is used by the individual, differentiated cell.... a microcosm, macrocosm, fractal kind of structure..... so any pattern (lines in your palm, tea leaves at the bottom of your cup, stars in the sky, spread of cards, DNA code, etc) if studied & correllated enough could reveal information about the whole system.... some people were just better at reading certain types of information & certain types of information sets were more 'acceptably mainstream'..... in these modern times more people are likely to believe a geneticist's report & accept DNA evidence than look to an astrology chart for future medical probability information, but it was the same information, just interpreted through different systems & philosophies. Most people were discounting astrology & accepting genetics without even a vague idea of how either of these systems worked!!

    Science & astrology are not at odds, as most people think. These two systems sometimes use the same terms, but in completely different ways to come up with valuable information. One is not superior to or more valid than the other, but they both add different perspectives on the Universe that can be used together. With just a little further research it is easy to see that most of the classical fathers of Western thought (Sir Isaac Newton, DaVinci, Galileo, Michelangelo, Boyle & others) had studied astrology, respected it & worked it into their worldview & works, although most of the direct references have been carefully edited out by embarassed orthodox science historians......

    love all-ways,
    • Re: or not, and why?

      Mon, May 8, 2006 - 12:14 AM
      one of the reasons why we see so many scorpio powered people drawn to astrology is that without the understanding of astrology we would feel condemned most or all of the world's religions and might develop some serious guilt complexes.. did i say that right? I know that I was starting to condemn myself as a kid, a sweet pisces kid, no less --until i found out what kind of hand I was playing.
    • ed
      offline 0

      Re: or not, and why?

      Mon, May 8, 2006 - 12:23 AM
      wow, what a bunch of wise and learned peoples.

      PL, yes, ive quickly wiki'ed Gauqueln. interesting to say the least. thank you.

      sherpa, I can relate with what your saying. especially about facilitating communication, as opposed to "enquiring about the weather." Its a usefull tool for getting to know someone.

      Zane, wow 85% accuracy thats amazing, for me, what I do is look at people, becoz I only know of the personalities for some of the sun signs, i put them into that group, Virgos are easy to classify becoz both of my parents are Virgo's u know, perfectionist, clean and um..clean, its like theres not a blemish on their clothes, they are perfectionist, i have never met a dirty virgo...well actually, i have my partner is a virgo she isnt as clean, but she likes to clean and her place is usally organised, she even has a year planner, but other factors influence her too, like her leo ascendant (her hair is a mess, its like a maine), and moon in sag (philosophical, she keeps talking to me about some philosophical idea which forever goes on in circles)...anyhows...I pick up on all the virgo traits, and i apply them to people i see, if they are like my parents, its fairly safe to assume that they are virgos, it works for me, but sometimes i have to visit their houses or i ask them if they like cleaning, if they joke about the vaccum cleaner its safe to assume they are virgos. but im not correct all the time, but i know Aries sun people, they are always talking, loud, obnoxious and always wanting to fight verbally or physically they are always hot headed, it seems like to me anyways. Im still working on the other signs. some people are a little trickier to figure out, unless u ask them bluntly, whats your star sign? but that would be cheating.

      MEM, its interesting that you compared reading tea leaves to reading Genome codes to be the same, sometimes I think like that, its like finding connection between events, ok, heres an example, i was working at a gas station last year, and i saw this guy walk across right to left to enter the store and i knew something was gonna go down, so i backed myself against the table then he said "money!" he had a loaded shot gun, and i was just watching the whole thing the gun was pointed at my co-worker and there was a customer right next to me, the athmosphere seemed quite tense, then he got his money all $60.00 dollars and i could see in his face that he was disappointed, when he turned around the gun went off and the pellets hit the ciggarette cabinet, nobody was injured fortunately... 50 more cm. to the left and i would have eaten some pellets, but the point is, i knew something was gonna happen before it happened, becoz the pattern was different as opposed to some random customer comming in to buy some coke or something. its like watching nature, when the sea gulls are inland that means its gonna rain, its just a small thing, but reading planets and how it affects us on some level is totally out of this world, i think yu have to be in the right frame of mind in order to understand it, some people dont becoz maybee its just not their interests. and yes, i believe that science, astrology and spirituality are kinda linked, depends on how u see it.
      • Re: or not, and why?

        Mon, May 8, 2006 - 4:48 PM
        I'd like to suggest a book for anyone interested in asking the "But why!?!" question of astrology:

        The Night Speaks: A Meditation on the Astrological World View : Trace the Wonder of Astrology and the Human/Cosmos Connection by Stephen Forrest

        I think it's a great read and related to this question of whether astrology is "valid" or not.
  • Unsu...

    Re: or not, and why?

    Mon, May 8, 2006 - 10:27 PM
    Ed, daaar'ling?

    Aren't there better holes to dig? I mean you can't possibly be serious about astrology with these questions..what's your scorp moon really digging for? Perhaps a waste of our time?

    I'll give you the best answer I ever found: if what your looking for is nothing, that you shall find...
    • ed
      offline 0

      Re: or not, and why?

      Tue, May 9, 2006 - 9:16 PM
      Dear Varoom,

      How are you?, I saw your post on my question, First and foremost, I I taught this lady might be retarded or maybee ignorant. But I can understand why you have said what you said, in real life people take me the wrong way as well. My question was out of curiosity but on second reading, It could be a tad threatning to ones belief system if you follow it "seriously" u know, like hardcore Christian's, you will burn in hell effect! if you do this and that.

      So out of respect for tribe Astrology and for you, believe it or not, keeping my "white hot ulterior in check, u know like, hiding a volcano with a tissue" Ill expand my reasons to the question in question.

      Ready? ...ok, the reason I ask becoz, I myself have very limited knowledge in astrology, and when I try to conversate with everyday people in society, sometimes the question about "horoscopes" come up, sometimes some people deride astrology, there is nothing wrong that, I can see how "far out" it might be from their taught process, but what gets up my nose is the deriding of such topic without backup, they dont know themselves what astrology is about.

      Hence I ask the question HERE, with people that do understand what astrology is about and can provide me with the information, and their own taughts and beliefs about it.

      Thats also how my mind works, if Im gonna take something "seriously" I have to know both sides of the story, a simple analogy would be that of money $$, if a person goes into a bank and presents a 100 dollar bill to the cashier and ask to exchange it for cash of lesser value, the cashier has to make sure the money is legit. The cashier will check both the front and back of the note, to make sure its valid, the cashier would have second taught, if there are only markings on the front and a blank backing...a forgery if you will and not a very good one, it would take a pretty dehydrated cashier with a very strange sense of humour to accept that, would'nt it?

      Then again youre a Gemini, they are always out to try and get me and I like digging holes and If thats your best answer, you suck!, im sorry, but you do.

      • ed
        offline 0

        Re: or not, and why?

        Tue, May 9, 2006 - 9:18 PM
        by the way, thank you all for the information and the inputs, i will be looking into those sites mentioned. thank you.
        • Unsu...

          Re: or not, and why?

          Wed, May 10, 2006 - 7:24 AM
          Another excellent book to look at, Ed, might be The Case for Astrology by John West. He looks into the Gauquelin research and possible scientific underpinnings for astrology, but also discusses why, in the face of sound statistical evidence, there is still so much resistence to the idea that there may be a causal link with the stars and planets and human lives. He suggests it is because most people are resistent to the idea that they may not have much free will. It is a bit doomy and gloomy in places, but well worth the read I should think.
      • Unsu...

        Re: or not, and why?

        Wed, May 10, 2006 - 3:49 PM
        "if a person goes into a bank and presents a 100 dollar bill to the cashier and ask to exchange it for cash of lesser value, the cashier has to make sure the money is legit."

        But my friend, you haven’t made deposit, you're coming into a site of experienced astrologers and asking them to make it real for you. What I tell everyone with your questions is: read jr high level astrology (like you did with science) then we can talk. I’d recommend ‘the only way to learn astrology vol.1,2, & 3)

        "Then again youre a Gemini, they are always out to try and get me and I like digging holes and If thats your best answer, you suck!, im sorry, but you do."

        Actually, we don’t suck, can’t quite figure it out, if we did, we wouldn’t blow so much hot air every time we opened our mouths…though if we did know how to suck, maybe we’d have better luck holding onto that special someone, like you :-)
        • ed
          offline 0

          Re: or not, and why?

          Wed, May 10, 2006 - 8:43 PM
          varoom my dear friend, teacher.

          i didnt realiseyoure the self appointed speaker for all members of tribe "astrology", you have misunderstood me so much its like me asking you for a duck and you came back with pasta, Im not asking anyone to make astrology real for me. Have you truly read my questions and arguments? youre one truly an unbelievable person.

          "Actually, we don’t suck, can’t quite figure it out, if we did, we wouldn’t blow so much hot air every time we opened our mouths…though if we did know how to suck, maybe we’d have better luck holding onto that special someone, like you :-)"

          nice too meet you too, but i already have a partner, shes due with my bubba in 3 months and shes hormonal.
  • Unsu...

    Re: or not, and why?

    Tue, May 9, 2006 - 1:06 AM
    Dear Ed

    In your first question, you raised the issue of the precession of the equinoxes, but there are astrologers here who do use the sidereal zodiac. I would suggest though that the tropical zodia 'works' because observations made about the effects of each Sign are derived from looking at people, not looking at the stars themselves.

    Secondly, I suggest you visit this site, at
    let me know if you have a problem finding it.

    Garry Phillipson wrote a book of interviews with several astrologers, to ask them about their beliefs and he is also interested in the views of sceptics both hostile and friendly, such as Gauquelin and Geoffrey Dean, with questions asked similar to yours. He is currenlty engaged on writing a thesis on the underlying philosophy of astrology - or lack of it - he he sent me a questionnaire to answer with ones very similar to yours.

    The questions he asks the astrologers on his site may be interesting to you in the light of your questions.

    I taught a popular astrology course at a university myself once, but someone somewhere was obviously determined to put a stop to it, as it lost its accreditation through someone strategically leaving the judging panel when it was my turn to be seen, so the meeting was conveniently no longer quorate. It did seem to be an argument over scince rather than religion or occultism, as my course was sent to none other than H J Eysenck for assessment. He was an arch empiricist and skeptic, needless to say.

    I do not now what is motivating your scorpio moon, but all I would say in return is that I am no sceptic, having taken correspondence courses in astrology and proactised it at psychic fairs. My beef with astrology is not whether or not it works, but how it should be applied. Thatr is why I do believe that astrology should be treated more as a science than a religion. Otherwise there may be a tendency to impose views on clients that may be counter to that person's belief system, and I happen to believe that that is wrong. Nobody would accept in normal situations that a Moslem should impose his or her views on a Christian, or a Christian his or her views on a Pagan. For example, I had a lot of assumptions made on my chart when I first came to astrology because of the theosophical beliefs underpinning the way the people I met intepreted my chart and I became less and less happy with that (One of the people who also addreses these issues on Garry Phillipson's site in his interview is Mike Harding, by the way). I am not saying that it is not possible to find deeper truths through studying what Kepler called the eavesdropper to the gods, but it perhaps should be remembered that not everyone has the same orientation or approach to things.

    Anyway, what would you say to those who have questioned your reasons for asking these questions here?
    • Re: or not, and why?

      Tue, May 9, 2006 - 10:20 AM
      makes sense to me to ask here. i thought that was admirable. if you want to know the answers you go ask at the source.
      i mean you know, you go ask people who feel strongly one way or the other, people who have thought about their positions on a matter.
      • Re: or not, and why?

        Wed, May 10, 2006 - 11:44 PM
        My jury is out on that one, but I can say that my BS detector is
        usually on point and it only seems to go off when I hear people
        repeating what they have read or heard versus what they
        have experienced. The only way that I can experience astrology
        is by living out my potential and sometimes checking in with my
        birthchart to compare my experiences with transiting influences.

        I think that maybe a different question could be "Are you a slave
        to astrology or is astrology a slave to you, or something different?"
        I am always gonna go with the open choice. At the crux of the original
        question, what penetrates my being is when I ask myself "Is my study
        of astrology bullshit or not?" based on my intention in the endeavor. A
        resounding NO.

        Just like any other language it is only as much feces
        as I allow. How much DEAD input I put forth. The variable between the
        fecund matter of other peoples' texts, and the vibrant blossum of direct
        experinece is where we each get to choose how we contribute to those

        ? what are some other forms of language that could be BS or not and why?
        -interpretive dance
        - Pc vs. Mac
        -constructive criticism
        -jazz music
        -sign language
        -whale song
        -pig latin
        - the notion of a "global language"
        -baby talk

        and many more!
  • Unsu...

    Re: or not, and why?

    Thu, May 11, 2006 - 2:06 AM
    Hmmm... Well, I've always liked to see it like this;

    For roughly 6000 (or longer), people have been interested enough in these systems to keep talking about them all on their own... What do you think might create such an eternal intellectual curiosity which could last such duration? Are we truly that narcissistic as a species to have been so enthralled in ourselves and our dynamics for so long? And even if that is all that is gleaned from it, then Astrology has served it's purpose, IMHO... :)

    >>> in his day there was no distinction between astronomy and astrology <<<
    That was an inherently natural supposition for pioneers of the time to make, hence they also at the time were also thoroughly convinced of being "beyond Pythagorian" lessons, not realizing their eternal importance overshadowing their intellectual hubris... (but that never happens, right? LOL! ;) Pythagoras had the quantitative numbers/math/science vs. qualitative numbers/alchemy/metaphysical cycles down perfect, and nailed the "formulas" of the "cross-dimensional dynamics" of the dichotomy of "heaven" and "earth". Using his teachings one can essentially "plot a grid" between scientific/physics dynamics and abstract sciences/metaphysics so that all the points start lining up all nice & neat like people like them too...
    The two are "like a square and a circle" - of course they don't fit if you don't align them properly.

    <<< im a moon in scorpio so technically im very suspicious, although some if not most of the moon in scorpio traits apply to me, and astrology has shed light on my inner workings, i cant help but wonder if its just coincidental. >>>
    <<< but its strange how i can pick out some people and say to them that they are >>>

    LOL! Yep - that's your Scorpio alright... (it's the part that's always "scanning for details" of the other person; especially emotionally) Keep honing those instincts; they can't lead you astray... (You're too curious to settle for anything but the truth. ;) Just keep studying Astrology with that, and you'll pick it up in no time. ;)

    >>> As for "sun sign" horary forecasts like you see in the papers... Oh, they're correct alright - for whatever percentage of living people manifesting those sign energies (not just necessarily your sun; which is why sometimes reading other signs forecasts will sometimes ring more true than "your" supposed "sun sign") are in the proper places on Earth where those influences are in effect for the time frame in one particular segment of the globe, and *even then*, they'd also have to be the one's who's sun landed on the *lucky degree* (1 in 30 chance) that the sun happened to land on in the previously described "target zone"... (Hmmm... I can't *imagine* why that might not come out right.... LOL!)

    Just *enough* truth gets thru to folks to strike a nerve (which is why it's sort of a "time-honored tradition" of Astrologers... Most who publish those figure, "eh... If it increases readership" (or "ellicits interest")...

    Ah, I'm too tired to go on (nor would many like me to, I'm sure... LOL!). But I also came at Astrology from the eyes of a skeptical studier, found I had a proclivity for understanding it's intricacies and subtleties (And I can now explain my functionings in the terms of this "soul language" in great detail, and am also able to recognize when such "universal" (or "archetypical", if you prefer) "traits in common" that were demonstrated consistantly regardless of abstraction or distortion.

    They are invaluable in understanding the "alchemical make-up" of our "etherial innards"... (It was only once we started looking at the actual stars, rather than the cycles that they illicited in us that things started to "go a little wonky". ;)

    Anyways, good luck on your investigation into the matter - mind the details! ;)

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