http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7403929b-6139-414a-9850-eb23ee0103a8 In my experience (based on the study of my charts and life) Jotish (what some call Vedic Astrology) has a "closer" interpretation to what i see as my "reality", But the Jotish analysis does not disqualify (again, in my experience) the interpretation of my Western stile Chart, actually what it does is to complement it. Thu, 06 Apr 2006 05:12:56 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7403929b-6139-414a-9850-eb23ee0103a8 Ozai 2006-04-06T05:12:56Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#d3b5a5c2-4e9c-4bf6-aac9-c899a4f35572 thanks for the kind words DEIA -- RE: Predicitive - i just mean if you want to know about when would be a good time to do certain things, what is coming up for you, etc.. that is all.. Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:50:16 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#d3b5a5c2-4e9c-4bf6-aac9-c899a4f35572 Sadasiva 2006-04-05T23:50:16Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#71c5580e-b298-42e5-b636-ed9b3d090a47 thanks Sam! hmmm, maybe a little "queasy" about the "predictive" piece, though I don't know what your definition of prediction is... (what a great word, "queasy" :) but, not at ALL "queasy" about the BIG stuff... it's... what I live for!! ok, I know I'm sounding silly, it's, uh, been a long day. but in spite of any silliness, I actually am quite serious. I almost wrote at the end of my last post, that if/when I have the means to invest in a reading, you'd be the first person I'd contact for the reading (or for a recommendation, if you couldn't do it) (do you do long-distance consultations?) (I gotta go back to your website and check before I ask any more silly questions, huh?) I've always gotten a good feeling from you here on tribe, and have a lot of respect for the words and thoughts that you share. thanks again! :) deia Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:02:57 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#71c5580e-b298-42e5-b636-ed9b3d090a47 déia 2006-04-05T23:02:57Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#5a2556cd-37ac-4954-a235-d6e933333bd5 "well, now I'm even more curious than I was before to have my vedic natal chart explained to me!! " i offer a very affordable 45 minute reading for only 79.00 if you are really interested. Especially if you are not all queasy about the big issues like why your soul has come here, reconnecting the universal Self, the deep otherworldy life lessons - vedic sees right to the core of this stuff -- it is also very predictive though.. so -- Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:27:44 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#5a2556cd-37ac-4954-a235-d6e933333bd5 Sadasiva 2006-04-05T19:27:44Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#b704f9db-1db0-48ef-ada9-e24ef936ae11 Thanks kalikat The fog is clearing a little now. I doubt that I'll ever have the ability to understand both systems, but just knowing why they are incompatible, yet both valid, helps a lot. Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:19:17 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#b704f9db-1db0-48ef-ada9-e24ef936ae11 $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-05T19:19:17Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#e99b2c84-c59d-4809-b099-c1eae95cc3ef oh no! I didn't mean to imply that I thought that one system was better than the other (though if that's the way that it read, I apologize) only that one made more sense to me than the other... but you know what?.. DUH!! of COURSE one makes more sense than the other, and isn't it funny that the one that makes sense is the one that I know a little bit about (insert picture of me slapping my forehead) maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut (err, my fingers off the keyboard?), but, oh well, too late. actually, even right after I wrote what I wrote, I was thinking more about it and I knew that there was something unfair about making the comparison that i made, but couldn't quite pinpoint what it was, let alone find words to describe it... but then Sam wrote: "it seems more like you are saying Western astrology, using the Sidereal Zodiac, does not make sense to you" and, you pinned it. that’s it exactly. thank you Sam (and Kalikat too) I'm definitely getting a better understanding of how the two systems are not just about using different names for the location of the planets, etc, hmmmmm, well, now I'm even more curious than I was before to have my vedic natal chart explained to me!! Wed, 05 Apr 2006 03:31:50 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#e99b2c84-c59d-4809-b099-c1eae95cc3ef déia 2006-04-05T03:31:50Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#2d2ed0ba-4b9e-42e8-890f-68970e41dded Sam: "Actually it seems more like you are saying Western astrology, using the Sidereal Zodiac, does not make sense to you. " Kalikat: "when you change the zodiac from tropical to sidereal you get very different results with the planetary placements. however, b/c jyotish uses different methods for reading a chart, the jyotish techniques offer similar results that you would see if you were reading the chart from the tropical zodiac." Thanks Sam and Kalikat. It's a little clearer to me now, but I see there is an enormous amount to learn. I understand now why astro.com has that warning about changing from tropical to sidereal chart selection "only if you really know what you are doing". Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:47:55 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#2d2ed0ba-4b9e-42e8-890f-68970e41dded v 2006-04-05T01:47:55Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#682f9498-72c0-4763-b6ba-3f562f1315c7 Thanks for the link, Od. Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:29:02 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#682f9498-72c0-4763-b6ba-3f562f1315c7 v 2006-04-05T01:29:02Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#0adb56ad-40f5-4d8f-be6f-f9889040e3c0 "When instead, this is like learning another language - you cannot just plug the words of one language into another, otherwise you get sentences that make no sense -- dsee what i'm saying -- " ann, v, deia: when you change the zodiac from tropical to sidereal you get very different results with the planetary placements. however, b/c jyotish uses different methods for reading a chart, the jyotish techniques offer similar results that you would see if you were reading the chart from the tropical zodiac. for a simple example, my moon goes from tropical virgo to sidereal leo - in the western interpretation of virgo moon, one is constantly analyzing and critizing everything, often retreating psychologically into the mind when the emotions get too intense. now in the sidereal zodiac, my moon is in the same sign as mars in leo (atlho not in the tropical zodiac, where moon is in virgo and mars in leo). in jyotish, moon is the planet of the mind - other things too, but particularly the mind. and in jyotish mars is a planet of analysis, critique, and psychology. so in this particular situation, you can see how mars with the moon in jyotish can be read similarly to moon in virgo in western. this is just one very simple example how the two systems reflect each other, at least in terms of planetary sign/house interpretation. the trick is to be well versed enough in either system to do the interpretation in a way that makes sense to the person who's chart is being read. Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:01:22 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#0adb56ad-40f5-4d8f-be6f-f9889040e3c0 kat 2006-04-04T22:01:22Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#df1ecf8e-a3ad-4d1a-94aa-2bbcd267280b Yes Ann, i think it would be very helpful top remember that Vedic Astrology is A LOT more than just a different zodiac and NO outer planets. It is an entirely different way to asess the chart. best blessings Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:35:37 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#df1ecf8e-a3ad-4d1a-94aa-2bbcd267280b Sadasiva 2006-04-04T18:35:37Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#21b188ce-5640-46be-9c98-cc89d071fdd9 Hi again Sam and everyone. It seems that we are trying to compare "apples and oranges" here then! A little knowledge is, indeed, a dangerous thing! One day, when I get Tropical astrology straight in my head (if I live that long!) I shall study Vedic properly. Until then, whenever I read anything about Vedic, I'll remember Sam's words: "you cannot just plug the words of one language into another otherwise you get sentences that make no sense" - that's a really good way to describe it! Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:22:39 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#21b188ce-5640-46be-9c98-cc89d071fdd9 $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-04T15:22:39Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7bc168b3-017a-43cf-bf53-dcf80704f34f HI DEIA, stick with whatever makes you feel best ,, but this is not really acccurate: "switching from Western to Vedic, suddenly I'm staring at the chart of a person who's all earth and water. fixed. grounded. I do not know this person. " vedic astrology see the chart differently, believe me it would make sense to you if explained to you, but it would not be the way you think it would -- there is a much different focus in the practice - the houses and temporal relationships of all of the planets to each othter are really the most important things -- stuff that western astrology does not even consider. You are simply rotating the chart to different signs and using western astrology on it. When instead, this is like learning another language - you cannot just plug the words of one language into another, otherwise you get sentences that make no sense -- dsee what i'm saying -- Actually it seems more like you are saying Western astrology, using the Sidereal Zodiac, does not make sense to you. BTW - There is no better or worse - my western Chart also makes sense -- Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:56:12 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7bc168b3-017a-43cf-bf53-dcf80704f34f Sadasiva 2006-04-04T02:56:12Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#62d3be1a-a991-46a0-98b6-a3ad5291f391 v -- I agree. A Cancer is a Cancer, no matter where born, and has the Cancer characteristics associated with the start of summer -- even if born in the Southern Hemisphere's winter! Somehow, it seems, the signs are tied to the seasonal cycle of the Northern Hemisphere universally. Here's more on the relation of signs to the seasonal cycle: http://www.jornal-astrologia.com/article_jarvis.htm Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:40:01 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#62d3be1a-a991-46a0-98b6-a3ad5291f391 Od 2006-04-04T02:40:01Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ae0e29f2-ebd2-4f10-b7b3-d3b283ee473b [another one raises her hand] while I'm interested in learning more about Vedic Astrology, so far it's the Tropical perspective that I've connected with and that makes the most sense to me. in my (western) natal chart, everything (with the exception of Saturn in Cancer) is in air and fire signs. lots of mutable/cardinal energy. this is - right on - it's me! (and no, I don't say this because I identify myself with my chart, it's more like the first time my chart was explained to me - whoa - right on!) switching from Western to Vedic, suddenly I'm staring at the chart of a person who's all earth and water. fixed. grounded. I do not know this person. (though I'm sure we would benefit from introductions and getting to know each other a little better :) Tue, 04 Apr 2006 02:00:13 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ae0e29f2-ebd2-4f10-b7b3-d3b283ee473b déia 2006-04-04T02:00:13Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7c3e8344-425d-4d98-9744-b5e5b85b4ec2 "In any case, to the best of my knowledge, residents of the Southern Hemisphere find that traditional astrological correlations and interpretations seem to hold for them. " Od, I have a friend who was born and raised in Chile. His sun sign is Cancer and this really fits him well. If I were to "flip it" and make him a Capricorn sun (since he was born while it was winter in Chile), well that just doesn't work. He is most definitely a Cancer. Tue, 04 Apr 2006 01:58:46 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7c3e8344-425d-4d98-9744-b5e5b85b4ec2 v 2006-04-04T01:58:46Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#fd616a50-bb4c-4a71-a0d0-89a7a16e8868 "It was a similar chart to yours which started me thinking along these lines, V. " Ann, yes it was because of the example you gave that brought me out of lurking. The chart of your husband's daughter was so similar to mine and what you said about it was right on the mark of what I had been thinking. Tue, 04 Apr 2006 01:47:17 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#fd616a50-bb4c-4a71-a0d0-89a7a16e8868 v 2006-04-04T01:47:17Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#f3ddf52e-8ee1-4e0b-aa78-1a3f37185b60 Hi Ann et al, I have studied both western and vedic astrology, currently making my living practicing an teaching vedic astrology, i will tell you that there is definitiely a different way to work the chart and planets that yields very accurate resutls. realize this - classical vedic astrology does not use the outer planet or asteroids as are used in the west, but vedi astrology uses 9 planets (SUn-Saturn AND the north/south node as full planets) . ALso the stars are used in the chart, so every planet is in a sign, a house and a NAkshatra (related star) -- also vedic astorlogy uses 16 charts as a standard part of a reading -- also there are other predictive methods that allow for a lot of very detailed and precise predictions to be made -- the interpretations of what the signs, houses and planets mean are generally the same in both systems. nothing different. one mjor difference though is that the chart is reckoned from the ascendant, not the SUn sign. SO a person with vigo rising and aquarius sun would be a virgo in Vedi c astrology. i Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:09:13 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#f3ddf52e-8ee1-4e0b-aa78-1a3f37185b60 Sadasiva 2006-04-03T23:09:13Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#0272ac42-9fd8-4a64-839d-9d54044143d5 Ann ~ "Perhaps in India and the east generally, because values are different, the descriptions of sign qualities are understood differently. When we apply our western values/ways of life to the archetypes (especially in relation to certain of the signs such as Virgo and Leo) we see a different picture. ???" Yes, I would say that is true. There is a whole other way to read Vedic charts ~ with different correllations (of course there are similarities too) ~ IMO, Vedic astrology must be studies as an entirely different subject, with understanding of Indian mythology, spirituality, culture & cosmology.... Western astrology is much more steeped in Western self actualizing psychology & "Western values" (for better or worse).... there is much cross-over, but I would bet that the differences you notice, would illuminate your particular cultural identification with each system ~ at least, that is what I have personally found. love all-ways, mem Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:26:47 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#0272ac42-9fd8-4a64-839d-9d54044143d5 MaryEllen 2006-04-03T20:26:47Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#094e6605-6314-4962-bc4d-60970949596b V - you say " The Sidereal system gives me 6 planets in Leo and Gemini rising. I don't identify with this at all. That is simply not me. " It was a similar chart to yours which started me thinking along these lines, V. There has to be an explanation, Vedic astrology obviously works or it wouldn't have survived. Perhaps in India and the east generally, because values are different, the descriptions of sign qualities are understood differently. When we apply our western values/ways of life to the archetypes (especially in relation to certain of the signs such as Virgo and Leo) we see a different picture. ?????????????? Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:22:46 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#094e6605-6314-4962-bc4d-60970949596b $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-03T14:22:46Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7dfd3db6-286e-4c32-afc4-23a18f1bcfb4 Good question, v. Let's see if I can come up with a good answer... Unquestionably, astrology originated in the Northern Hemisphere of the planet, where human life first developed and the earliest civilizations flourished -- generally in North Africa and the Middle East. Could it be that some ancestral memory traces of our prehistoric origins still reside in all humans? Also, two-thirds of Earth's landmass above sea level is in the Northern Hemisphere, as is almost three-quarters of Earth's human population at present -- and that fraction was much higher in the distant past. Perhaps humans are by their nature merely sojourners in the Southern Hemisphere, always somehow connected to their ancient home in the North. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, residents of the Southern Hemisphere find that traditional astrological correlations and interpretations seem to hold for them. Mon, 03 Apr 2006 03:59:50 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#7dfd3db6-286e-4c32-afc4-23a18f1bcfb4 Od 2006-04-03T03:59:50Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#36a207bf-8fe5-4621-9dd0-2179268c304c Od, I enjoyed reading your post and found it informative. But how would people living in the southern hemisphere relate to this since our spring is their autumn and so on? Mon, 03 Apr 2006 03:32:46 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#36a207bf-8fe5-4621-9dd0-2179268c304c v 2006-04-03T03:32:46Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#3215c7a1-1ec6-4394-b55b-7b5bc54e12d6 I was also curious about Sidereal Astrology, but it doesn't fit me at all. In the Tropical system I have 7 planets in Virgo (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter, Uranus, and Pluto) and Cancer as my rising sign. This seems pretty accurate. The Sidereal system gives me 6 planets in Leo and Gemini rising. I don't identify with this at all. That is simply not me. Mon, 03 Apr 2006 03:26:52 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#3215c7a1-1ec6-4394-b55b-7b5bc54e12d6 v 2006-04-03T03:26:52Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ca9155fd-69b1-40f0-9dcf-6c11e8b22f10 sacred geometetry is basewd on Astrologt though.. 12 signs refer to approx 12 synodic (MOon) cycles per year (1 Earth revolution around the Sun) -- 12 30 day cyles is 360 days -- 360 degress in a ircle -- 1 degree is the length the earth moves in a day around the sun, etc.. so, Sacred geometry and astrology are interrelated -- since we come from the starts - i tend to put them before our man made (mind made) structures -- as you wish though -- good ideas here. Mon, 03 Apr 2006 03:12:49 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ca9155fd-69b1-40f0-9dcf-6c11e8b22f10 Sadasiva 2006-04-03T03:12:49Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#da00aaaf-56b9-45d9-a79a-b816dffac9e4 Od: Thank you so much for that wonderfully full and fascinating explanation. I shall save it to my Word Pad to re-read several times. It has encouraged me to look deeper into astrology's origins - something I'd put to the back of my mind because there's so much to learn about the "mechanics" of it! I read the following article yesterday - I like this theory, and it does fit with the idea of the Sun /seasons beng the key to everything. Or at least I think it does - I shall read it again in light of the information you have so kindly provided. http://www.universalastrologer.com/astrwork.html Thanks again, Od ! Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:52:38 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#da00aaaf-56b9-45d9-a79a-b816dffac9e4 $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-02T14:52:38Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ec1cc8e7-7aa1-4416-8df3-527d88f07791 I will leave it to Sam or some other advocate of sidereal astrology to explain how that system might be valid -- it does not resonate with me, however, nor do I find it consistent with historical facts concerning the origins of astrology. In particular: The constellations did not give rise to the astrological signs. Rather, the constellations were drawn and assigned meaning on the basis of astrology as a manifestation of sacred geometry. The reason why there are 12 and only 12 signs – not 13, or 15, or 10 – is because the ancients of the Mediterranean and Middle East recognized four elements (Fire, Earth, Air, and Water) that make up the substance of reality, and three qualities (Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable) that describe cyclic action of the elements. Four times three is twelve, making a complete set of paired elements and qualities that describe the solar cycle of the seasons, as follows: Cardinal Fire...........Early Spring................Aries Fixed Earth..............Middle Spring.............Taurus Mutable Air...............Late Spring................Gemini Cardinal Water…....Early Summer...........Cancer Fixed Fire.................Middle Summer….....Leo Mutable Earth..........Late Summer.............Virgo Cardinal Air..............Early Autumn..............Libra Fixed Water..............Middle Autumn...........Scorpio Mutable Fire.............Late Autumn...............Sagittarius Cardinal Earth….....Early Winter................Capricorn Fixed Air....................Middle Winter.............Aquarius Mutable Water.........Late Winter.................Pisces The arc of the heavens was mathematically divided into 12 equal segments, each one representing the area where the sun resides during each of the 12 periods identified above. The visible fixed stars that occupied each segment were given names and qualities that accorded with the 12 divisions or signs. Angular relationships between the signs, in increments of 30 degrees (one-twelfth of a full circle) were given meaning in accordance with sacred geometry: the trine (120 degrees apart) was seen as the most harmonious relationship as it occurs between signs of the same element; the square (90 degrees apart) was seen as the most discordant because it occurs between signs of the same quality but different elements working at cross-purposes; and an opposition (180 degrees apart) was regarded as a weaker form of the square. Adjusting signs to match existing constellations, to account for precession of the equinoxes, would be entirely beside the point, which lies in the principles of sacred geometry as applied to observation of the sun, moon, and planets in relation to the earthly cycle of the seasons and their meaning in human experience. Sacred geometry can be defined as: the study of spatial relationships that symbolically reveal the underlying structure of reality, in a metaphysical sense. The metaphysical, however, is manifest in the physical -- this is the esoteric meaning of "as above, so below." Sacred geometry can be seen as a template, or window grid, that we look through so as to give structure and meaning to the otherwise chaotic experience of ordinary physical reality. It is in this way that the twelve divisions arising from the elements and their qualities were imposed on the observed heavens. The object of astrology is not to scientifically describe celestial bodies and their motions (which is the object of astronomy), but to symbolically interpret the synchronicity of celestial events and human experience -- obviously, this is more art than science, although it relies on having accurate astronomical data. And yet, this "art" can be empirically verified, as, for example, in the statistical analysis presented by Carl Jung in his book "Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle." The analysis shows a significantly high correlation between traditional astrological indicators of relationship success and actual long-term marriages. Wikipedia has some interesting information on the origins of the zodiac: ”The concept of the zodiac was originated by the Babylonians certainly before 2000 BC as a method of visualizing the passage of time. The zodiac worked as a symbolic calendar. It was divided into twelve parts as suggested by the appearance of 12 moons in a year. The signs are geometric divisions of the celestial sphere, each corresponding to one twelfth of a year. ”The signs of the zodiac, as enumerated by Egyptian astronomer, Ptolemy, in the 2nd century AD, are the ones we know today. The same names are used for both signs in astrology and for constellations in astronomy, but it's important to make a distinction between signs and constellations. Signs are geometric sections, each 30° wide, corresponding with particular periods of time of the year, but which don't necessarily physically correspond with the constellations of the same name. ”By the time of Ptolemy the zodiac was already at least two thousand years old. But together with its burgeoning astrological use the basic function and structure of the ‘calendar of the zodiac’ remained. The sign of Aries marks the beginning of the year at the Northern Hemisphere vernal equinox. The retreating crab in Cancer represents the retreat of the Sun from its farthest northern point at the time of the Northern Hemisphere summer solstice. Leo, the symbol of fire, represents summer heat. The scales of Libra signify the balance between day and night at the autumnal equinox. The decline of the sun's power is represented in Scorpio by the scorpion, the symbol of darkness. The water-bearer, Aquarius, represents the rainy season which, in Egypt, meant the yearly flooding of the Nile. The fishes of Pisces, symbolize the return of life and the resumption of agriculture.” As an example of how constellations were drawn and assigned meaning based on esoteric criteria, consider Aries. Of course, it takes a great deal of imagination to see a ram in the handful of stars that make up the constellation of Aries. So why a ram? This is from an article by astrologer Deborah Houlding: ”Whilst the history of the zodiac is better documented as it evolved in the Mesopotamian region, the fact that Aries is known to originate from Egyptian symbolism argues that their perception of the sign is closest to its original meaning. Aries was incorporated into the Mesopotamian zodiac after the conquest of Egypt by the Assyrians in 671 BC. It is conspicuously absent in early Babylonian texts, which refer to the constellation as Lu Hunga, 'the Hired Man'. ”In ancient Egypt the ram was revered as an emblem of the Sun and held inviolate except during the New Year ceremonies when lambs were offered to the Sun in sacrifice. This was a time of great spiritual significance; the re-emergence of the Sun, the resurrection of the light, the resurrection of God. Like the mythical phoenix, which arose in its own ashes, the ram was chosen as a natural symbol of resurrection because of its ability, when shorn, to replenish its stock of wool. ‘The Ram, who is rich with an abundance of wool and, when shorn of this, with a fresh supply, will ever cherish hopes,’ writes Manilius in the first century BC. Biblical references draw heavily on the symbolism in the description of Christ as the Light, the Resurrection, the Lamb of God. It is not by accident that Easter - the resurrection of the Lord - is held in the full Moon period that follows the Sun's entry into Aries, and our western custom of giving eggs is based on a similar need to offer symbols of new life and new opportunities. ”It was a natural act by which the stars of the constellation that held our attention at this period, the final death of winter and darkness, the re-emergence of the Sun's full glory, should be characterised in the form of a living representation. Principally a symbol of the resurrected Sun, the ram became a visible manifestation of the Sun-god and its creative power; subsequent generations spoke of a mythical golden fleece, able to return life to the dead in the same way that Aries heralded the end of the season of death. Through this association the sacred Ram was an embodiment of the principles of fertility, vitality, new life and creative energy.” Thus, the constellation associated with the full resurrection of the sun (Fire element) at the Vernal Equinox, by means of which a new solar cycle is initiated (Cardinal quality) is assigned the identity of a ram: Cardinal Fire..........Early Spring...........Aries the Ram Sun, 02 Apr 2006 02:52:15 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#ec1cc8e7-7aa1-4416-8df3-527d88f07791 Od 2006-04-02T02:52:15Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#4246f1f9-3937-4436-8992-751ed0e1506b Thank you for your reply, Mary. Perspective is everything, I guess! I've tried looking at it rather like one of those optical illusion drawings where, if you look at it one way it depicts one thing, look with a slightly different focus and the picture changes. I shall try to do this as I transfer the different degrees on a few more charts as tests. As astrologers often say - "we all have every sign somewhere in our charts" - It's going to be simply a difference of focus. In the case of an extreme bundle type chart it becomes less easy to see another perspective, but I suppose it IS possible with a tweak or two. :-) Sun, 02 Apr 2006 02:16:07 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#4246f1f9-3937-4436-8992-751ed0e1506b $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-02T02:16:07Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#924af7e8-0433-4a9f-9352-4881345d10d1 forget about 'cause & effect' ~ it's like Newtonian physics ~ it's a good approximation for examples that are within 'normal limits' ~ once you start to take the entire spectrum of existance into account (not just regular human perception) it's important to use quantum physics.... that's where this human consciousness derived, logical conundrum comes from..... both Tropical & Sidereal systems work within their own boundaries ~ each just has different perspectives on the universe/stars ~ depending on your perspective (there IS NO OBJECTIVE observer!), you can use whatever system appeals to you ~ or even make up your own, with enough research...... no one is 'more correct' than the other ~ the only thing that really matters is which system(s) you *vibe* with..... personally, I use them all, depending on what type of question I'm asking ~ each system seems to have it's 'strong' & 'weak' points.... kinda like languages that I translate between..... hope that helps! love all-ways, mem Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:36:11 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#924af7e8-0433-4a9f-9352-4881345d10d1 MaryEllen 2006-04-02T00:36:11Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#2aa9189d-a43a-4b6b-b5ce-977fa773e4f2 Good question, Ann. I would like to know the answer as well. =) Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:20:32 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#2aa9189d-a43a-4b6b-b5ce-977fa773e4f2 W 2006-04-02T00:20:32Z http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#24cf4086-e129-4de7-98b1-688c9360fb66 I'm sure this must have been asked before, so if this is a duplication, please excuse! After reading a few websites I think that I've understood that when using Sidereal Astrology the zodiac signs are all 23/24 degrees earlier than when using Tropical calculation, because in Sidereal Aries is kept in line with the actual constellation as it is in the sky now. Tropical calculation has kept 1 Aries at a symbolic point of the spring equinox......I've probably got that slightly wrong, but I get the general idea. I checked my own chart to see how it would change counting back 23 degrees for every planet and point. Being Tropical Aquarian, I'd be Sidereal Capricorn, but my Jupiter and MC would become Aquarius, other moves compensate for each other too. I could see how it might fit me because I have a "splash" chart and the mix of planets and signs , and elements seemed roughly the same. Trying the Sidereal system with a chart like my husband's daughter, with 5 planets in Virgo, which would all move back to Leo, simply would not be accurate. 5 planets in Virgo (Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Pluto) describes her exactly, 5 in Leo not at all - no way!!! I prefer to think that astrology works by some kind of (unknown) cause and effect, and yet if this is so, the Sidereal system should be more accurate - but it doesn't seem to be. Can anyone offer any clarification or opinion on this please? Sun, 02 Apr 2006 00:17:25 GMT http://astronuts.tribe.net/thread/78ea8e2f-12e3-4aff-8335-35820101a04c#24cf4086-e129-4de7-98b1-688c9360fb66 $item.owner.firstName 2006-04-02T00:17:25Z