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Chiron in the 1st house

topic posted Sat, June 10, 2006 - 2:34 PM by  Clover
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My Chiron is in the first house conjunct my Gemini asc., and I have not been able to feel or read about what kind of influence this might have on my throughout my life and personality. I was hopeing a few of you might have some words about it, or even what chiron represents, exactly.
I love you all, thank you!
posted by:
Clover
Washington
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  • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

    Sat, June 10, 2006 - 3:02 PM
    Hi, Chenae,
    Here are some sections from my book that apply to your chart:

    "CHIRON IN GEMINI: High on the list of priorities with these people is, as you might suspect, communication. It is especially important for them to understand why there is a communication breakdown, or why there is an obstacle to communication, and to do everything to resolve the situation. Therefore these are the best people to have around as non-biased third parties in a dispute. The want very much to contact as many people as possible, and it hurts them if they are misunderstood. If they take up a cause, they can be quite fiery advocates. Learning is paramount to them, and they love to learn new ways of thinking, new ways of problem solving. They are always testing, testing, to see just what limitations their immediate environment puts on them, and on others."

    "First House: This person orients himself to the universe in a way that goes beyond any particular path, established viewpoint or structured life-style. The first impression this person gives is that he cannot be categorized. He looks familiar sometimes, but you cannot put your finger on the reason. The eyes have a look about them as if the person were from another dimension, a stranger in a strange land. There is a refusal to let any obstacle interfere with the pursuit of his personal growth. If some such obstacle exists, he goes through it as if it did not, or tries to. Overcoming obstacles and resolving problems, in fact, is one way this person discovers himself. He believes he has something in common with everyone he meets and that all people should also have that belief. In the developed type there is a special knack for opening doors for others and a desire for all people to exist on the same level, thus a hatred of inequality. Unless there are serious aspects to the contrary, these people are dynamic, radiating energy, and tend to be quite disarming. Their integrity is usually beyond question (unless the rest of the chart drastically disagrees.) There is a strong “loner” quality to their personal lives, even though they may deal with people all the time. They often have the ability to get around the system, the unique ability to see beyond what others see, and often have a “wild” look in their eyes which makes them quite attractive.
    People with Chiron in the First:
    Norman Mailer, Rollo May, Mercedes McCambridge, Dan Rather, John Scali, Mike Schmidt, Anne Tyler, Archie Griffin, John DeLorean, Uri Geller, Rex Harrison, R.D. Laing, Vincent Price, Burt Reynolds, Rennie Davis, Kareen Abdul-Jabbar, Gregg Allman, Vida Blue, James Arness, Steve McQueen, Wilt Chamberlain, Huey P. Long, James Stewart, Marshall Tito, Adelle Davis, Joseph Alioto, Rosie Greer, Pete Townshend, Sally Fields"

    "CHIRON CONJUNCT ASCENDANT
    The general description for Chiron in the first house fits people who have Chiron conjunct Ascendant, but even more strongly and more noticeably.
    The eyes of these people attract attention. It is said that ‘the eyes are the windows to the soul’, and if this be true, these people seem to have very old souls---their eyes look as though they could tell you a thousand stories. In the more evolved types the ‘cause’ is usually some group of people whom they feel needs help or support---some group that they perceive as being treated unfairly. It is extremely difficult to remain indifferent to those with Chiron conjunct Ascendant ---they seem to almost force you to form some opinion about them."

    And here are some general keywords relevant to Chiron:

    " HEALING/WHOLEMAKING
    MAVERICK
    QUEST
    GUIDE
    KEY
    DOORWAY
    CHIROS
    LOOPHOLE
    QUALIFIER
    Teacher, Guru, Mentor, Fosterparent, Turning Point, Now, Catalyst, Bridge, Link, Steppingstone, Passageway, Common Ground, Union of Opposites, Holistic, Personal Imperative, Pulling the Plug, Balance, Mediator, The Passage from Dependence to Independence, Turning the Corner, Therapy, a Koan [in Zen Buddhism], A Wound that will not Heal, a way to break free of a matrix, Synergism, Essence."

    I hope that helps some.

    Zane
  • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

    Sat, June 10, 2006 - 3:43 PM
    It seems that you would make a great special ed teacher ,speech therapist or neural surgeon . Your own wound is wrapped up wih your identity and it is a spur to action to learn to heal yourself to be compassionate and to heal others .
  • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

    Sat, June 10, 2006 - 4:43 PM
    Weird, chiron is also in my first house conjunct my gemini asc.
    • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

      Sun, June 11, 2006 - 2:07 AM
      wow Zane, that was amazing. what about Chiron in Cancer in the 6th (opposed Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune, but trine the NN and sextile the SN and Mars)? ok ok i know its a lot, but I havent been able to find any useful Chiron material either, perhaps can you give us the URL to some good Chiron website?

      thanks!
      • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

        Sun, June 11, 2006 - 9:53 AM
        • Re: Chiron transits to the 1st house/ ascendant

          Sun, June 11, 2006 - 11:17 AM
          I don't have natal Chiron in the 1st house, but transitting chiron is currently exactly conjunct my ascendant/ opposing my descendant. This is occuring at the same time that transitting Saturn is exactly conjunct my descendant and beginning a conjunction to my natal Saturn. Apparently, my Chiron to Ascendant transit is going to be a long one--and at the same time as my Saturn return, opposing Chiron! Saturn is also moving into a square with my natal 2nd/ 3rd house Chiron.

          Has anyone experienced a 'transit' of Chiron to their ascendant, 1st house, or know what to expect? I'm curious what this is supposed to signify. (Neptune is transitting through my 1st house too, and Uranus is just leaving).
          • Re: Chiron transits to the 1st house/ ascendant

            Sun, June 11, 2006 - 11:47 AM
            I had Chiron pass over my Ascendant when I was 12-13, Nancy, but unfortunately my experiences would not be quite typical. That was the period of time when Chiron and Pluto were opposing in the sky, so I also had Pluto conjunct my Descendant at the same time.

            But over the years, I've had enough experience speaking with others that I can give you a few hints about Chiron transiting your Ascendant.

            It's a time you will remember as an eye-opener. The Ascendant, among other things, has a lot to do with one's perception about the immediate world...the world around you personally. Chiron crosses into the first house, and zap, there are things quite out of kilter with the way you have been looking at things. It can be a bit unsettling, but it affects different people in different ways. Often, there is a person, a book, something, that comes into your life that will help you to reset your perceptions more in tune with reality. I like to think of it as a guide, or guru, or teacher, even when it is words coming from the pages of a book.

            How you feel during this depends upon your willingness to accept the truth...holding on to your perceptions can produce a feeling of pain, even to the point of asking the universe, "What did I do wrong?", or asking the powers that be "Why have you forsaken me?" Continuing to hold on, and you will feel the intensity rising from old wounds that you have repressed, not allowed to heal.

            BUT, it need not be like that. Because, as I said, there is a guide of some kind entering your life at the same time as reality has become shaken up. Accept that your perceptions need to change, and not only will your view of the world become truer....but you may also discover that you have become aware that some of your errors in perception were due to old wounds that were still influencing you, keeping you from moving forwards. It can be a time of great healing, and as a result, energy that was tied up (often subconsciouly) in memories of past hurts is released, and you find yourself living more and more in the here and Now.


            • Thank you for the insight, Zane!

              I look forward to this possible teacher, book, guide that will help reset my perceptions open my eyes. Some of that already seems like it has happened, possibly with a person fairly recently. He certainly had an influential impact on me, but I don't know if it was really resetting my perceptions in any way. I also think I haven't processed it yet. I have a feeling that I will only realize who the real teachers were--people, experiences, books, etc.--in retrospect. Sometimes the full impact of things only hit you later. I could use eye-opening and perception resetting, though, so I welcome these guides, books, teachers.

              Unfortunately, Neptune is also in my 1st house (just crossed over my ascendant), so that check-in with reality may be a little obscured by haze--and my Saturn return (that great teacher) opposing my ascendant will only make things more dour. Hey, maybe Saturn is this mysterious teacher who will give me a dose of reality!

              Thanks for giving me a clue about this transit, though. There aren't many people/ resources that know a lot about Chiron. (Astro.com only tells me that this period is akin to a "checkmate.")
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: Chiron transits to the 1st house/ ascendant

              Fri, November 19, 2010 - 9:18 PM
              Hi Captain,
              Chiron is now passing over my ascendant. I found your post very helpful. So thank you! I AM experiencing changes of perception that is bring my perceptions more in alignment with reality.
      • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

        Sun, June 11, 2006 - 11:17 AM
        "Chiron in Cancer: “Security!” Nothing must stand in their way as they work to achieve this. Their family is paramount, and in the evolved types the family is viewed as all of humanity. Thus nothing must threaten whatever they define as family and it is a personal imperative to protect the self and family at all costs. They have a hatred of aggression and animosity as a rule, although a severely afflicted chart may counteract this trait. They are usually more in tune with their emotions than is the average person, and tuning in more all the time. One of their major lessons to learn is to control their emotions, not to let them run haywire or to become lost in them. They have a knack of taking things from the past and bringing them into the present and future in a way that they become useful again, bridging the generations."

        "Chiron in the 6th: These people have unique health problems. Often what seems to help others does nothing for them, or does the opposite of what it was meant to do. But health is a dominant
        concern for them. If these people come to terms with their own health problems there is often a strong desire to help others in the medical field. They are hard-working people, determined, with a sense of duty and self-responsibility. They pay a lot of attention to detail and often develop unique skills at some craft or handicraft. Whatever they decide is the best avenue for their skills, they want to be as expert and perfect as possible, and hate being restricted to any category within their field. They want freedom to try any and all techniques that may perfect their skills and enable them to best do the job. Most of these people are shy and introverted as children. Often they are poor or indifferent students in spite of the fact that they have high intelligence. As adults they are often brooding, withdrawn, and leaning toward pessimism or realism; very few optimists have this position. They often appear as cold, aloof and into their own private worlds. Unevolved types consider everyone as either inferior or superior to themselves. Two reasons for the previous two sentences are: they fear the ending of any relationship because it is extremely painful to them so they are afraid of getting too closely involved with anyone; and they have great lessons to learn in the way of service, and until these are learned, they fear not knowing how much of themselves to give (the fear of being used.), so they may appear to be selfish. But when they overcome these fears they can be the most giving, helpful and healing types.
        People with Chiron in the 6th:
        Mia Farrow, James Goddard, Joe Grey, Alan Leo (opposition Asc.), Janet Leigh, Daniel Nathans, Robert Wagner, Jackie Onassis, Bob Hope, Ingrid Bergman, Gwendolyn Brooks, Geraldine Chaplin, Francis Ford Coppola, Jimmy Carter, A. E. Housman, Lous Pasteur, Maurice Ravel, Auguste Rodin, Joanne Woodward, Rita Hayworth, Lana Turner, Errol Flynn, Katherine Hepburn, Eleanor Bach, Stephen Crane, Sir William Crookes, Dr. Tom Dooley, Dennis Weaver, Clint Eastwood, Dustin Hoffman, Billy Rose, Martin Sheen, Cathy Rigby, John Knowles, Paul McCloskey, Liza Minelli, Pierre Salinger, Bruce Springsteen"

        I've commented on Chiron opposition Uranus a couple times in the past on this tribe.

        "Chiron opposition Saturn: On a positive level, these individuals seem to triumph against impossible odds. They are definitely fighters, and usually have very strong principles for which they fight. No one, nor anything, is going to stand in their way when they are striving for some goal. They often perceive life, or at least part of it, as a war between what is, and what should be, and they are convinced that what should be is the winning side. Negatively, they can be quite ruthless in their methods, if necessary. They tend to follow the philosophy, ‘The end justifies the means.’ If other aspects also point in this direction, they can become truly dangerous foes, and potentially dangerous to society as a whole. There is a tendency with those who have this aspect to become totally convinced of being right on some issue, and then become closed off from any information that points to the contrary. But, as in all Chiron aspects, when such a person goes too far along this line, drastic events will come along to shake his/her closed world. The normal reaction is one of two things: Either to pull the walls more tightly around self, and thus begin to see others as enemies---or to recognize that no human being can ever know all the facts on any subject. If the latter path is chosen, the person has the chance to develop a keen eye to search for new information, new facts, new data where others do not go.
        EXAMPLES of people with Saturn opposition Chiron:
        Robert Horton, Jack Anderson, Dr. Christian Barnard, Eva Marie Saint, George Bush, Maria Callas, Steve Allen, Philip Berrigan, Dick Martin, Goethe, Theodore Roosevelt, Rabindranath Tagore, Kurt Vonnegut, Auguste Lumiere, Maurice Messegue, Andre Bergeron, Al Hirt."

        "Chiron opposition Neptune: People who have this aspect seem to be convinced that the reality they were brought up to believe in is not quite right---that the ideals they were taught to strive for are not those that really will make them happy. Or, that the general image of the universe taught them is not correct---that it has holes or inaccuracies in it. As a result, they have an inner discontent which leads them to search for a clearer picture of the universe, or for something to believe that will truly bring them inner peace. There is a great potential for helping others here, but frequently the individual must overcome inner confusion before s/he can open up to consider other problems
        EXAMPLES of people with Chiron opposition Neptune:
        Karl Ernst Krafft, Andre Malroux, Vittoria DeSica, Charles Richter, Marie Osmond, Paul Verlaine, Enrico Fermi, Anatole France."

        "Chiron sextile Mars: People who have this aspect have little doubt in their minds that they can do anything they set their minds to do. While they are not usually the type to do things merely to prove someone wrong [as in the semi-square], the thought rarely enters their heads that any given project might be too difficult. Likewise, they take it for granted that anything they choose to do they will be allowed to do. It is not that they are, by nature, lawbreakers---unless other aspects in the chart point to that. Rather, when they choose to do something, it just seems natural to them that they be allowed to do it. If you have a child with this aspect, you can see how imperative it is that the child grows up with a good sense of values in hopes that the child will choose not to pursue antisocial activities. These people have a great deal of talent in controlling and using Martian energy, no matter what field they enter. And they usually have a great deal of energy, often seemingly coming from nowhere. They have a remarkable ability to manifest Mars as a tool, whether they are skilled with scalpels or carving knives, one-of-a-kind athletes or hard hitting politicians. Whatever they do, their methods carry with them their own personal brand---their own unique patterns.
        EXAMPLES of people with Mars sextile Chiron:
        Tom McLoughlin, Larry Csonka, Auguste Rodin, James Blish, Dave Brubeck, Eleanor Carter, George Foreman, Elizabeth Koontz, Kate Millet, Cindy Williams, Carl Wilson, Katherine Graham, Leopold Stokowski, Daniel Berrigan, Percival Lowell, Aretha Franklin, Ben E King, Brad Whitford, Cher, Dave Brubeck, Edgar Winter, Felix Cavaliere, Jimmy Buffet, John Lennon, Kim Carnes, Patti Smith, Phoebe Snow, Ray Charles, Steppenwolf."

        I have not studied Chiron in soft aspect to the nodes, only conjunction, opposition and square.
  • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

    Sun, June 11, 2006 - 9:40 AM
    I also have chiron in the first in gemini (taurus ascendant) and that description fits me quite well. I've never quite understood what it meant exactly, but someone once told me it's similar to having uranus in the 1st and that chiron is like a mix of pluto (or saturn?) and uranus.
    thanks for posting the article!
    • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

      Sun, June 11, 2006 - 11:21 AM
      April,

      Chiron is often equated with the Saturn/Uranus midpoint, and is very much the meeting ground for these two bodies, on just about any level you can think of.

      Some examples:
      Saturn = The Past, Uranus = The Future, Chiron = Now
      Saturn = The Estblishment, Uranus = The Revolutionary, Chiron = The Mediator, or the one who follows his own path, not wanting to fit in with the establishment, yet also not wanting to tear anything down either.
      • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

        Sun, June 11, 2006 - 2:13 PM
        how do i find out where Chiron is in my chart ???
        • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

          Sun, June 11, 2006 - 2:23 PM
          Bionix, if you'd like to tell me your birth data, I'll look it up for you.

          Or if you'd rather, you can have your chart calculated for free at www.astro.com and have Chiron included.
          • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

            Sun, June 11, 2006 - 2:47 PM
            i've tried to find it but i've failed so thats why i asked so that you would offer to do it for me i just didnt want to admit that i couldnt do it myself..... : ) heres my birth data..2/14/1984/ 7:31 pm do you need the location?
            • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

              Sun, June 11, 2006 - 3:03 PM
              Bionix, I only need the location if you want me to be exact to the second with your Chiron. It moved about 30 seconds of arc the day you were born, so for all intents and purposes, you have Chiron at 27 Taurus 48.
              • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                Sun, June 11, 2006 - 3:06 PM
                ok my location is Dallas Tx .....im looking in your website for right now to learn more about it i had never really heard about Chiron till now and when i read the description i related so much and now im more curious then ever......
                • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                  Sun, June 11, 2006 - 4:11 PM
                  sorry i didnt take that as a joke when i read it the first time ha.......im such a dork
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                    Sun, June 11, 2006 - 6:34 PM
                    I have Chiron in Taurus (8th house) in which it conjuncts my Taurus Moon. I'll give my interpretation on what I think that means, and maybe you can tell me if I am on the right track. I'm somewhat of a beginner here-- trying my hand at putting charts into my own interpretations.

                    Parental influences in regard to emotional security not met when younger. One or both parents being somewhat aloof or detached in some way. Home life unstable and erratic. Problem forming relationships with parents, teachers, other partnerships.

                    Primary focus when older is stability--almost to the extreme (sometimes life just has surprises and you have to deal with it, I hate surprises and curveballs thrown at me.) Learning to balance the need for stability and security but also the ability to be more flexible in life.

                    Am I on any track here, Zane?
                    • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                      Sun, June 11, 2006 - 8:54 PM
                      BellaRose, I'd say you know yourself pretty well, and yes, I see all of that in your Moon/Chiron in Taurus. The idea of distant parents, an an unstable home, is definitely a strong possibility with Chiron conjunct Moon, although I did not include that in my early writeups on this asepct.

                      Here, I'll quote some relevant paragraphs:

                      "Chiron in Taurus: Values change through time and cultures, but these people have a personal imperative to search for values that will remain when everything around them changes. All typical Taurean things, such as possessions and security, are important, but they have unique viewpoints on them. They feel that nothing must stop them from acquiring what they feel they need to survive, and this includes material security. Many lessons come to them from this area of life, and as they evolve they develop a great deal of concern for the needy. They feel that no one should be deprived of the necessities of life, and no one should become wealthy at the expense of others. The less elevated types may not feel this way, but they are working out problems that will eventually lead them to this attitude. These people often are quite innovative in solving problems in the material world."

                      "Chiron conjunct Moon: Vibrations of many types affect these people, so they must learn early in life some deep philosophy which takes into account unseen forces. This may be manifest in profound religion, but need not be. These people are also extremely susceptible to influence from their personal environment, and soon develop very unique criteria [tastes] about what it takes to make them comfortable. Many live in residences that are anything but normal; one may purposely seek out a place that is haunted; another may move into a house made entirely of rubber tires. Should they choose to, they can be great swayers of people’s emotions because they can tune into some feeling common to everyone---some emotion everyone can identify themselves with.
                      It is often found that a person who has this natal aspect had a mother who was a pioneer in some way, or a researcher, or a specialized adventuress. It appears often that the mother has passed on to the child an abiding curiosity. And, unless drastic indications in the chart point to the contrary, the Moon conjunct Chiron person usually feels very deeply the pains and sufferings of others.
                      EXAMPLES of people who have Moon conjunct Chiron:
                      Jerry Lewis, Marjoe Gortner, Jules Lenier, Hans Holzer, Paul Verlaine, Robert Mitchum, Ross McDonald, Karl Malden, Patricia Neal, Sandy Duncan, Colonel Sanders, Terry Jones, John Denver, Carol Burnett, George Peppard, Barbara Streisand, Admiral Richard E. Byrd, Woodrow Wilson, Gaston Doumergue, Marie Curie, Francois Coli, Jean-Paul Sartre, Edmonde Charles-Roux, Farah Diba."

                      "Chiron in the 8th House: These people usually have very strong instincts and often have to work hard to re-channel a basic animal or “killer” instinct into something constructive. There is usually a basic “coolness” or sophistication, yet you can sense that, beneath it, they are quite volatile. These are people who, if they work on themselves, develop great self-discipline, control and “toughness”, yet there is still the intensity there. Often as children they are in trouble due to lack of self-control. These people try to concern themselves with simplicity, to get the basic “flavor” of something, or to get to the real roots of a situation. There is a desire for precision and often a love and desire for research, with a knack for quickly penetrating a problem. They want to develop and sharpen their power and skills and are quite capable of controlling others if they choose to do so. You can usually recognize them by their calm self-assurance, animal magnetism and sense of utter conviction. They have the potential to tap and channel vast energies and life forces, and to open doors to other worlds. Their sexual desires are often unique but they are capable of transcending them in ways others would not even think of. Their greatest lessons concern sex, power and death.
                      People with Chiron in the 8th:
                      Omar Sharif, Yul Brynner, Henry Winkler, James Dean, Stacy Keach, Richard Chamberlain, Robert Mitchum, Montgomery Clift, Robert Blake, Ryan O’Neal, Karl Malden, Bruce Lee, Joe Frazier, Jackie Robinson, Jack Nicklaus, Eddie Arcaro, Indira Gandhi, Mao Tse Tung, Dr. Louis Berman, C. C. Zain, William Masters, Bishop James Pike, Komar, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Christopher Isherwood, Jack Kerouac, John Steinbeck, Yoko Ono, Leonard Bernstein, Jimi Hendrix, Raquel Welch, Elizabeth Montgomery, Deobrah Kerr, Christine Jorgensen, John Dunlop, Shirley Hufstedler, Lawton Chiles, Baudelaire."
      • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

        Sun, June 11, 2006 - 7:09 PM
        zane, thanks for clearing that up. . . that's quite interesting
        • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

          Sun, June 11, 2006 - 9:51 PM
          Zane thanks for the info .........it fits me totally how strange because i was wondering when one of my charts would get that down and they never did i guess thats why i needed to know how Chiron effects me .......... detached parents i was the oldest so they used me to learn and raise my two sisters i was detached from them aswell i was the kid who felt adopted i dont know my biological father and was raised by a stepdad so there was definate detachment......but i was also the same i was independent and i perferred to be that way cause i was often misunderstood and the stories i told were to out there......
          --------------------

          All typical Taurean things, such as possessions and security, are important, but they have unique viewpoints on them. They feel that nothing must stop them from acquiring what they feel they need to survive, and this includes material security. Many lessons come to them from this area of life, and as they evolve they develop a great deal of concern for the needy. They feel that no one should be deprived of the necessities of life, and no one should become wealthy at the expense of others. The less elevated types may not feel this way, but they are working out problems that will eventually lead them to this attitude. These people often are quite innovative in solving problems in the material world."

          Often as children they are in trouble due to lack of self-control. These people try to concern themselves with simplicity, to get the basic “flavor” of something, or to get to the real roots of a situation. There is a desire for precision and often a love and desire for research, with a knack for quickly penetrating a problem. They want to develop and sharpen their power and skills and are quite capable of controlling others if they choose to do so

          They have the potential to tap and channel vast energies and life forces, and to open doors to other worlds. Their sexual desires are often unique but they are capable of transcending them in ways others would not even think of. Their greatest lessons concern sex, power and death. -Zane
          -----------------------------------------------
          Parental influences in regard to emotional security not met when younger. One or both parents being somewhat aloof or detached in some way. Home life unstable and erratic. Problem forming relationships with parents, teachers, other partnerships.

          Primary focus when older is stability--almost to the extreme (sometimes life just has surprises and you have to deal with it, I hate surprises and curveballs thrown at me.) Learning to balance the need for stability and security but also the ability to be more flexible in life. - Bell

          yessss....very true i so realte to this discription......i was wondering since Chiron was discoverd in the 70's wouldnt it effect a whole new generation and the offspring of that generation what about people born before the 70's ??? sorry if this sounds dumb but im curious and i ask tons of questions because of it......
          • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

            Sun, June 11, 2006 - 9:55 PM
            yesssss, thank you Zane! i looked for the chiron opposition uranus interpretation and ive already found it, im saving it all in a notepad file.

            how is your book called? is it on stock?
            • ze
              ze
              offline 1

              Re: Chiron in the 1st house

              Fri, June 16, 2006 - 12:21 PM
              so where is the chiron opposition uranus post, i want to read it, cause i have it also
              i think its very prominent since uranus is in the 7th in antares, and chiron is in the 1st

              also my asc is in 0 degrees gemini... conjunct northnode and chiron , both in the 1st
              sextile to sun in the 4th
              square to mercury i nthe 5th

              i think gemini and chiron are very prominent for me.. i speak several languages, can get anything done by talking
              i can make or break , with my words...... heal or destroy
              also people always like me or dislike me, there's nothing in between... they also cannot tell me why they do or dont
              but offcourse this could also be because of sun square pluto, venus square mars

              carlo
              • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                Fri, June 16, 2006 - 1:36 PM
                im curious how to find past and future transits. like when was my chiron on my ascendent or when will mars or saturn be on my dc? and when will pluto rest on my true node? is there someplace online the will calculate things like that?

                also, i would love to hear what you have to say about chiron in pisces zane if you were willing. but also, mine is at 28.22 pisces - should i also feel it is aries cusp?
                • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                  Fri, June 16, 2006 - 2:51 PM
                  heres zane's interpretation to...

                  Chiron opposition Uranus:
                  This opposition seems to tie into the ever-quickening pace of scientific breakthroughs that began in the early 1950’s. Actually, one of the problems is that science is making discoveries faster than they can be integrated into society ---even faster than proper safeguards can be devised for our protection from side-effects and from the discoveries themselves. This same ‘vibration’ seems to be part of the nature of individuals who have this aspect. There is a thirst for the new, for discovery, for experiences, that often outweighs the taking of any precautions. This is especially true when the opposition is prominent in the chart. You dare not try to curtail the freedom of such an individual---the consequences are not pleasant. The urge for independence in such a native is so strong---especially if the aspect is prominent---that s/he frequently has trouble in relationships. S/he needs a relationship with someone who will give him/her ‘their own space.’ It is difficult to find someone sufficiently secure to give a partner that much freedom. It seems that these people are always so full of life, and spirit---they may be down, but never for long.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                    Fri, June 16, 2006 - 3:13 PM
                    Chenae, Chiron in Gemini is a wound related to your intellect, communication skills, interaction with other people, and the way you identify yourself with outer channels of information in your day-to-day life.

                    Since Chiron is in the first house, this wound shows up in your sense of self, self-image, who you are and what you want in life.

                    So from what I read before when you were talking about your attraction and longing for Pisces energy...

                    This is showing up as intellectually not knowing who you are to some extent...a self-image that is created by what you're told by other people/sources of information...you look to the outer world for self-definition rather than within. Maybe you feel that you don't know enough...always seeking more and more information to find out who you really are. Maybe your intellect was put down when you were younger, and you took this to mean that you yourself were not whole...you needed to learn more to be better.

                    The longing for Pisces energy/attraction to Sun sign Pisces is your longing to know who you are on a deep, spiritiual level...to know where and how you fit into the whole...to feel your own personal connection to the universe and to know that you are whole, perfect and loved just how you are.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Chiron as a force of subversion

                      Fri, June 16, 2006 - 3:36 PM
                      Amidst the general associatons of Chiron and "wound" or "wounded healer" very little detail has been presented here, or in the books I have read about Chiron, that specifies the nature of this wounding process. And so, I have been thinking on this for some time now and have come to some conclusions (for now) that natal Chiron represents a force of subversion in our lives.

                      Until integrated, this force acts out in negative ways via self-sabotage. Look to your own charts and ask yourself if there are self-stabbing tendencies there or habits of undoing your intentions as if by accident.

                      Integrating natal Chiron amounts to choosing to act as a conscious force of subversion. What is worth subverting if not the status quo models and defintions of reality as symbolized by the sign and house of natal Chiron ?

                      Rather than subverting one's own intentions unwittingly, why not subvert the status quo by providing alternative definitions and realitities ?

                      For example, my Chiron in Capricorn is in my 3rd House. Every time I have attempted to secure socially-approved status and success in the fields of educaton and writing, I have fallen on my face. But whenever I have participated as an active force to subvert these status quo definitions -- by following my own terms for success and status -- I have achieved more actual success and status in my life.

                      Anyone else out there interested in this theory of "Chiron as a force of subversion" ?
                      • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                        Fri, June 16, 2006 - 3:51 PM
                        of course, sherpa,

                        Always interested in additional insights into Chiron.
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                          Fri, June 16, 2006 - 3:55 PM
                          Zane,

                          As our tribal Chiron authority, I wish to know your thoughts around this idea of Chiron as a force of subversion.
                          • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                            Fri, June 16, 2006 - 10:13 PM
                            I will be happy to comment, sherpa, but first, please give the definition of the word subversion, as you are using it in this context.
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                              Fri, June 16, 2006 - 10:51 PM
                              Zane,

                              Subversion; a.) The condition of being subverted. b.) The act or an instance of subverting.

                              My Chiron theory (the very short version):

                              When unintegrated, Chiron might symbolize a passive condition of being subverted by oneself, as in, undermining one's own intentions, i.e., self-sabotage. When integrated, Chiron might symbolize an active instance of subverting whatever was undermining, or subverting, one's intentions, ie.e., "sabotaging the saboteur."

                              Subversion is often associated with a kind of violent overthrow by a destructive force, such as an anarchist revoltion. I think unintegrated Chiron can symbolize how we can unwittingly act out self-destructive tendencies and undermine our best wishes. When integrated, Chiron can symbolize a force of creative destruction (not destructuve destruction) by overthrowing a mental construct or habit pattern that is subverting us.

                              "Subvert or be subverted."

                              Chiron is integrated by a conscious choice to participate as a force of enlightened, or conscious, subversion. Subversive can also mean providing an alternative to the status quo, like the way The Sex Pistols and punk rock subverted disco back in 1977 when Chiron was first "discovered". Chiron seems very punk rock to me; Chiron as the Punk Within.

                              Hope this helps to lay a suitable foundation for your comments.
                              • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                                Sat, June 17, 2006 - 10:42 AM
                                Thanks for the explanation, sherpa.

                                First, let me say that I see such things a "violent overthrow by a destructive force" as being more tied into some of the outer planets. Uranus is very much the anarchist revolutionary, not Chiron.

                                Keep in mind where you find Chiron. Its orbit is primarily between the orbits of Saturn and Uranus, although it does briefly at perihelion get closer to us than Saturn. The way I see Chiron, it is not interested in maintaining the status quo (Saturn), nor tearing down the walls (Uranus). Rather, it is interested in going an alternate way that is the path less travelled. The Chironic influence does not have a problem with those who adhere to Saturnian conventions, nor does it want to be involved in the destruction of said conventions.

                                I am reminded of Thoreau:
                                "If a man does not keep pace with his companions," he wrote, "perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."
                                Here was a man who believed in living simply, and at one point, he moved to a hut on the edge of Walden Pond near Concord. For two years he lived with a minimum of possessions and limited his contact with people. He did not tear down the status quo, he simply left it to follow his own path. And in doing so, he came to the realization that each person has his own path, and that following it can open up doors to a new world for the individual, where he follows a higher order, and where "new and more liberal laws will begin to establish themselves around and within you."

                                But, you talk of an unintegrated Chiron. There is an essence of truth in what you say.

                                When Chiron is unintegrated, it is not silent. Your behavior is greatly influenced by it, although it is not always conscious. There are deep wounds that we all carry, and Chiron is the place where the most painful wounds reside. If a person has not come to terms with the deep hurt, then they can at times sabotage their own path. A situation that occurs today can touch off the old wound, or 'push your buttons', and you react to today's situation with an emotion that is way out of proportion to what the situation warrants.
                                (Did you ever say the wrong thing to someone, and they lash out at you with a ferocity that seemed to come out of nowhere, and that seemed much, much more intense than the event should have provoked?)

                                Another way the unintegrated Chiron seems to work against you, I call the 'pearl in the oyster' effect. You know how the oyster gets a piece of grit up against his fleshy body, and can't remove it, so he begins to coat it with layer upon layer so, even though it is not gone, it no longer irritates?

                                Well, where your Chiron falls, you may have done something very similar. You have an wound, a painful experience. You begin to put a layer around it, to keep it from coming to the conscious mind; then a layer around that, etc. After awhile, you've done an excellent job of avoiding the pain....but you have tied up a lot of psychic energy in maintaining the buffer zone....energy that you cannot use for anything else while it is tied up. So, while originally you did this to protect your psyche, now it has become something that keeps you from being whole. But, unlike the oyster with the pearl, the 'grit' or pain you have buffered is still there. And no matter how good your buffer zone is, Chiron will bring out a piece of the pain, or a flash of the memory, at seemingly inopportune times, and cause you to react. The normal tendency is to try to force it back inside, and you can do some things that might seem quite self-defeating or self-destructive in the process.

                                You wrote: "Subversive can also mean providing an alternative to the status quo."

                                An alternative to the status quo is only subversive, in my mind, if it seeks to bring down the status quo. If it is an alternative, giving you another choice, then it is not subversive.

                                EXCEPT, that those who live by the status quo usually have the attitude, "If you are not with us, you are against us." So to them, your choice of the alternative may very well seem subversive.

                                So we are here talking a bit about intent. I have seen Pluto intent to totally destroy the status quo, Uranus intent to shake the walls so the rotten parts break to pieces. But with Chiron, I have not seen any intent to subvert the status quo. I have, however, seen cases where other people have viewed the Chironic individual as the enemy, even if that was not the Chiron person's intent.
                                • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                                  Sat, June 17, 2006 - 11:36 AM
                                  yeah, my own chironic experience would confirm the notion of integrated/unintegrated.

                                  that makes it much more directional, or intentfully directional, like something to complete or fulfill, like an MC or a North Node.

                                  i know precisely the conflict my chiron manafests and the long ass hard roads i could chose to resolve it. its life defining choice i have to make. one is giving up, resigning, just going along against my better judgement, and the other is just scary in a social way and i have not felt up to meeting the challenge. to integrate, i have to accept the challenge. to not, i have to continue the wound and just build denial around it. i have been stagnating for years, consciously.

                                  anyway so i actually feel mine like a pronounced issue of integrated/unintegrated. i like that.


                                  interestingly enough, when i try to consider what has held me back from accepting that challange and ending my stagnation, it brings me to issues of an aries chiron - my chiron is cusp. what i've read about aries chiron (would most certainly love to hear your interpretation Zane) is that it has to do with finding one's self and not getting so lost in others. if i were to do that, i would then be able to resolve my piscean chiron issues.


                                  i think of all the things in my chart, i have found chiron and north node the most piercing.
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                                  Sat, June 17, 2006 - 12:36 PM
                                  Zane,

                                  Thanks for your comments on my theory and also your own thorough contribution to the Chiron Archives.

                                  With your natal Capricorn Chiron in the 10th House, would you say your "wound" (according to your theory and/or mine) is related to frustration around public recognition for your achievements ?

                                  With Chiron in your 10th house, it also makes a loads of sense that you have played such a prominent role in bringing Chiron into the public eye, for which we can all be thankful.

                                  Though we do disagree somewhat on our definitions of "subversive", I appreciate your inclusion of Thoreau and "the path less travelled", both of which I can totally relate to.

                                  Though I mentioned how common it was to associate subversion with violent overthrow (partly a dictionary defintion, actually), my personal definition is closer to "vengeance" insofar as living well is the sweetest revenge of all.

                                  I also appreciate your inclusion of Chiron's orbit between Saturn and Uranus which acts as a good metaphor for how chiropractics works on the interface betwee skeletal (Saturn) and electrical (Uranus) systems through spinal adjustments. Didn't chiropractics achieve A.M.A. approval for insurance coverage in 1977 when Chiron was discovered ?

                                  In reviewing your interpretation of Chiron, I still find something vital missing.

                                  If Chiron acts as a kind of symbolic interface between Saturn and Uranus then it seems, to me, tied to making structural adjustments (redefining terms) allowing for more mobility or freedom of movement. This in itself would constitute conscious subversion -- and the integration of Chiron -- given how so many mainstream defintions of the way we should live our lives (Saturn) are also forms of social control and population management.

                                  Any further thoughts ?
                                  • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                                    Sun, June 18, 2006 - 12:35 PM
                                    "I also appreciate your inclusion of Chiron's orbit between Saturn and Uranus which acts as a good metaphor for how chiropractics works on the interface betwee skeletal (Saturn) and electrical (Uranus) systems through spinal adjustments. Didn't chiropractics achieve A.M.A. approval for insurance coverage in 1977 when Chiron was discovered ?"

                                    Sherpa, it's interesting you bring up Chiropractic. In 1963, the AMA set about to discredit Chiropractic practitioners as quacks, setting up a Committe on Quackery. In 1966, they issued an anti-chiropracic policy statement.

                                    The AMA has actually been convicted -- twice -- in U.S. federal courts of conspiracy to destroy the chiropractic industry. The second time was in 1987 after a 11 year litigation when federal judge, Susan Getzendammer of the US District Court, found the AMA, The American college of Surgeons and the American College of Radiologists guilty of conspiracy to destroy the profession of chiropractic by engaging in a "lengthy, systematic, successful and unlawful boycott" designed to restrict cooperation between MDs and chiropractors in order to eliminate the profession of chiropractic as a competitor in the United States health care system.

                                    During the preceedings it was shown that the AMA attempted to:
                                    • Undermine Chiropractic schools
                                    • Undercut insurance programs for Chiropractic patients
                                    • Conceal evidence of the effectiveness of Chiropractic care
                                    • Subvert government inquires into the effectiveness of Chiropractic
                                    • Promote other activities that would control the monopoly that the AMA had on health care
                                    (This was upheld by the 7th United States Circuit Court of Appeals.)

                                    The settlement of the suit included an injunctive order in which the AMA was instructed to cease its efforts to restrict the professional association of chiropractors and AMA members. The AMA was also ordered to notify its 275,000 members of the court's injunction. In addition, the American Hospital Association (AHA) sent out 440,000 separate notices to inform hospitals across the United States that the AHA has no objection to allowing chiropractic care in hospitals.

                                    I'm not sure what you are referring to in 1977, but you may be interested in this Chiron/Chiropractic connection:

                                    Dr. Palmer and Roentgen were both born around a Chiron perihelion.
                                    Approximately 50 years later, again around Chiron's perihelion, AND around the time each was experiencing a Chiron Return:
                                    Dr. Palmer discovered the principles of Chiropractic medicine
                                    Roentgen discovered the principles of X-Rays.
                                    Interesting that no Chiropractor who is ethical will work on a patient without first having a thorough X-ray study done on the subject.
                                    ----------------------------
                                    "With your natal Capricorn Chiron in the 10th House, would you say your "wound" (according to your theory and/or mine) is related to frustration around public recognition for your achievements ?"

                                    Yes and no. The caveat is that in many areas, I have not been able to achieve acceptance for my abilities, because I did not go through traditional channels to gain my knowledge. For example, I only have an Associate Degree, and have been turned down for positions because I do not have a Bachelor's or higher, even though when tested, my knowlege base and abilities have exceeded that of candidates who have the appropriate degrees. Astrological, I'm self taught, and have been passed over at times in favor of astrologers with a string of credentials.

                                    On the other hand, there have been times when I have gotten places that would normally have required a degree that I didn't have, because there was a connection between my employer and my Chiron, or because I had something unique that made me THE right person for the job. The only non-relative in a family owned business, for example. Getting a promotion as temporary Assistant Director of Financial Aid at a college, while the Assistant Director was on medical leave, even though the position required a minimum of a Master's Degree.

                                    "With Chiron in your 10th house, it also makes a loads of sense that you have played such a prominent role in bringing Chiron into the public eye, for which we can all be thankful."

                                    Thank you. In the early days of Chiron research, we formed a Chiron Committee, and eventually discovered something intriguing. Almost every member of the Chiron Committee had Chiron in the 10th House, and even the astronomer who discovered Chiron, Charles Kowal, has Chiron in the 10th.

                                    "If Chiron acts as a kind of symbolic interface between Saturn and Uranus then it seems, to me, tied to making structural adjustments (redefining terms) allowing for more mobility or freedom of movement. This in itself would constitute conscious subversion -- and the integration of Chiron -- given how so many mainstream defintions of the way we should live our lives (Saturn) are also forms of social control and population management."

                                    Perhaps it is a case of semantics, Sherpa. The Chiron person does not intend to make structural adjustments. They do not have any intention on changing Saturn. However, it often occurs as a result of their choices. If I choose to go my own way, and explore an undiscovered country, and others become aware of this new land, and leave the orthodox or conventional system behind, it can eventually lead to the system changing, or even collapsing. But there was no intension in the original Chiron person of having any impact on the system.



                                  • Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                                    Sun, June 18, 2006 - 1:31 PM
                                    One more thing, sherpa....I wanted to quote someting from the introduction to my book, written back in the 1980's:

                                    "I am a Chironic astrologer. You won’t find that word in the dictionary, but there are quite a few of us, and our number is increasing day by day. We are astrologers who believe that discovering the truth is more important than personal theories, and also that we should always keep our minds open to the ideas of others.

                                    "Therefore, please do not take this book as the final word on Chiron. After all, the little body was only discovered in 1977---and we have so much more to learn. In fact, you are welcome to disagree with things. on these pages. I only ask, if you do, that you back it up with data, or at least with logic. Since I am more interested in discovering Chiron’s true nature than in my words being taken as gospel---I welcome any insights that you may have, no matter how different they may be from mine."
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        Re: Chiron as a force of subversion

                        Sat, June 17, 2006 - 12:52 AM
                        sherpa,

                        Having chiron in the fourth house trining the ascendant opposing Uranus , that makes a lot of

                        sense .

                        It resonates

                        "As if,,,,, " Never by accident just seemingly.





                    • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                      Sat, June 17, 2006 - 3:20 PM
                      Thanks so much Willow. This is very true, I have an insatiable urge to absorb as much knowledge as I can about any system that I feel will tell me more about myself and who I am. It's so funny, because a while ago I gave up researching this stuff and just took the time I would normally be studying and used it to meditate, instead. I feel more like a loveable, whole person because of it and now feel like I am the source of my own power, instead of what other people have written or said. A week ago I began again, looking at my birth chart and the such, and that old programming kicked in and then suddenly I was all worried about water energy and stuff...anyway, thanks for the reminder!
                • Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                  Fri, June 16, 2006 - 3:48 PM
                  Hi, arize,

                  The easiest ways to chart past and future transits to your chart would be to get an astrological software program, which you can ask to to this for you. In this way, you can chart your transits whether you are online or offline. Several software programs are listed on the FAQs page:
                  www.zanestein.com/Astrology...eesoftware

                  When you settle on which program you want to use, don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions on how to set up the calculations.

                  You can also look up the positions in an online ephemeris, but this requires that you know how to read an ephemeris. One of the most widely referenced can be found at www.khaldea.com/ephemcenter.shtml

                  As for Chiron, I don't pay much attention to the cusp, unless it is within 15 minutes from the dividing line. But here's Chiron in Pisces:

                  "They have a personal imperative to feel that whatever they are involved in is THE truth, the important cause. They want to avoid involving themselves in anything that is not important, or not possible to achieve. In this last point, what qualifies “possible” is their evolutionary state for the evolved ones believe that nothing is impossible. They want to be truly universal in lifestyle, and so will go beyond their world to become more whole. They have a deep optimism that they can make the world a better place, although this can be curtailed severely by heavy Saturn aspects. They are almost all quite psychic, and full of dreams. But one of the major lessons they have to learn is to avoid falling for wrong causes. They have an overpowering need to express love."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                    Fri, June 16, 2006 - 7:09 PM
                    cool. thanks. i'll have to play with looking at past and future transits.

                    and yes, that's yet another thing in my chart that makes me one of those people - big ideas, big purpose, big truth, big world, supposed to be leader teacher person. so many things point me there. hhhhh.

                    and that's interesting sherpa about the self-infliction. makes me think back to the saturn mars conjunct thread and the one i posted about my conjunct saturn mars and what you said about rebelling against my self in a sense. that was my first thought when you suggested self-wounding aspects in a chart.
                    • ze
                      ze
                      offline 1

                      Re: Chiron in the 1st house

                      Sun, June 18, 2006 - 1:29 PM
                      chenea

                      this unexplainable urge to read and discover things about yourself, you think this also has to do with the 1st house chiron?

                      sometimes i just compulsively read for hours on the internet about astrology, in particular energies i have my self, aspects, planets

                      myself i have chiron conjunct north node and conjunct ascendant
                      so i would say it is important to be myself at all times, and follow my own pace, and not adjust to others and keep relationships that are unhealty for me

                      last year my mother was doing extremely bad and chiron was conjunct my midheaven..
                      at the same moment pluto came to conjunct her IC... she had really plutonic experiences, laying on the bench shaking, not able to open her eyes, crazy stuff

                      would somebody here be interested looking at my chart, also with the chiron tendecies in mind?
                      27 july 1984, 1.20 in amsterdam the netherlands

                      greetz
                      carlo
  • Chiron & Nept. both conj. Asc., and both opp. Venus

    Thu, February 16, 2012 - 8:06 PM
    This thread has been a very interesting read; and few places have info on Chiron. My natal Chiron (in Pisc.) is in my 1st House conjunct natal Moon (2 deg. Aries). (Libra sun, if of interest.)

    I am an 8 degree Pisces Rising with an 8 degree Venus in Virgo exactly conjunct descendent (also have natal Jupiter at 29 deg. Leo, somewhat near descendant). The transiting Chiron is only a few degrees from being exactly conjunct my Asc., and transiting Neptune is hovering at being conjunct my Asc., as well. Both Chiron and Neptune would be opposite the descendant and natal Venus (I think they are already opposite natal Jupiter).

    I have had my share of deep troubles the past ten years, and am not exactly looking forward to any more hurts. And from the transiting Chiron and Neptune, all I can think of is that my love life is going to be absolutely pitiful the next 3.5 - 4 years, so just to focus on something productive and not even bother! Anything I do romantically will just get me hurt. Would this be a fairly accurate presumption?

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