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Quick question-if there is such a thing in astrology :)
Can a person's ascendant be weak in their personality? For instance my bestfriend is a rising Aries, I would not have thought she was because she is not agressive, she does not have a me first attitude etc...BUT her mars is in libra-aries opposite which makes her passive aggressive and she always gives into others first and never herself.
So my question is can your rising sign become weak depending on the sign the ruling planet is in? Or can a person lean towards acting out the descendant??
Can a person's ascendant be weak in their personality? For instance my bestfriend is a rising Aries, I would not have thought she was because she is not agressive, she does not have a me first attitude etc...BUT her mars is in libra-aries opposite which makes her passive aggressive and she always gives into others first and never herself.
So my question is can your rising sign become weak depending on the sign the ruling planet is in? Or can a person lean towards acting out the descendant??
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:09 PMWell in a sense it can. Personally I think the ascendant is at "risk" of becomeing weak if the individual for instance has the asc 29 degree in let's say scorpio and he/she has his sun and other heavy planets in sagittarius conjunct the asc or in the first. The scorpio asc might then become more sagittarian and even leo-like due to the sun.
I have to ask, does your friend have a planet in the first house? And if so what which planet?
"So my question is can your rising sign become weak depending on the sign the ruling planet is in?"
I haven't looked much into it but I think that could very well be possible. The ascendant is more and less evident within people. Sometimes it seems to have an overwhelming influence and sometimes it's vaguely present.
Although one thing about the ascendant sign that I've concluded is that the sign is expressed a bit differently than having a planet in the sign. Having a cusp in a sign is not exactly the same as having a planet in a sign, even though the sign is evident no matter if it's a cusp or a planet it's expressed a little bit differently.
I should also mention that when the ascendant is located in aries it moves extra fast, so if the birth time isn't very precise and the degree is in the beginning or end of aries your friend might have a pisces or taurus asc.
"Or can a person lean towards acting out the descendant?? "
Very much so. The descendant is a bit downplayed in astrology but it is a definite part of ones "astrological make-up". If the descendant is your apparent characteristics and tendencies, the descendant is the more abstract and hard to pinpoint nature within you that you have a need to project and mirror in someone else and thereby fulfill and see clearly. We kind of seek to fulfill our descendant on a personal level (as oppose to the midheaven that has more to do with our self image and official persona that doesn't have as much to do with the personal self). -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:12 PMsorry, I wrote "If the descendant is your apparent characteristics and tendencies" - I meant the Ascendant is your apparent characteristics and tendencies...
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:47 PMSugar moon-
She doesn't have a planet in her first house...Ok so how would you apply this:
My husband is Sag and a rising sag and aquarius is intercepted in the first house but Venus is sitting in aquarius how does that play out in him?? -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:59 PMSarah
What degree is your friends asc?
You mean that your husbands venus is located in his 1st house?
Assuming that it is... Well, his sagittarian influence is emphasized MUCH more than the aquarius even though the aquarian influence is present. But a sag sun AND asc only emphasizes the sagittarian qualities as well as throwing in some leonian influence since his sun is prominent, which makes it firey altogether.
Without knowing his moonsign or the other inner planets which might make it different I'd guess that he's quite charismatic as well as a quite masculine manly-man. I'd also guess that his self image is very important to him and that he is quite proud. With venus in the 1st along with the sun he's probably got a charming personality that he's well aware of himself =). He might have some ego issues but all in all he values being generous and spoiling others a bit.
Okay so how well did it match? -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:01 PMSarah
Oh I didn't read your reply... I assumed he had his sun in the 1st house, it might make things a bit different....
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:04 PMOk so here is my husbands history, I checked his birth cert and it said 10:15am making him a rising capricorn but if he was born at 10:14 he would be a rising sag so I gave a description of the rising signs to people and they saw him as a sag so that is where I put him...not sure if that was the right thing to do?
His sun is in the 12th house and Venus is in the 1st but like I said his first house is huge intercepting both capricorn and aquarius. His moon is in virgo in the 8th house. He is masculine but he definitely is extremely soft hearted, he cares about humanity as a whole, very trusting and would help anybody out in need with no complaints because he feels bad if he doesn't, he is easily walked over upon individuals who know they can get away with it. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:05 PMI think this is where the 12th house stuff plays out in him!
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:11 PMif you're asking if the sign on the AC is always noticeable or not, I'd say yes, it's possible for the Ascendant to be "weak", but in reality it never falls in the background of one's "perception", since it is the main "filter" between us-as bundles of stellar energy- and the "real world"...
But, obviously, it can be overshadowed by stronger influences in the chart. Personally, I always saw my Virgo Rising as my "conscience"-like the little angle hovering over my shoulder, whispering nasty things in my ear every time I stray from "the righteous path"-which, in my case, is paved by the rules of Virgo, of course.
And I would say it has a surprising amount of influence, despite the fact that the rest of my chart is formed of energies which square it(mostly Pisces and Gemini)...I truly admire Virgo traits, above all other traits, and always try desperately-at least part of me does-to fit the Virgo mold of being a "Machine". -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:12 PM* little angel. lol -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:17 PMlol. sugarmoon and I both edited our initial posts in the same minute..must be something going on..on the celestial plane. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:22 PMhaha yeah maybe it's the current gemini moon squaring our otherwise detail-fluent asc's.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:14 PMMantis
"But, obviously, it can be overshadowed by stronger influences in the chart. Personally, I always saw my Virgo Rising as my "conscience"-like the little angle hovering over my shoulder, whispering nasty things in my ear every time I stray from "the righteous path"-which, in my case, is paved by the rules of Virgo, of course. "
I so recognize this within myself, I've never looked at the virgo asc like that but that's an accurate description of it. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:23 PMso, maybe it's the typical nagging energy of Virgo and not the general vibe of the ascendant..though I am inclined to see all ascendants as "consciousness", unless they're backed up by some personal planets in conjunction to it...and even then it's still a consciousness thing, only has a "nuanced" and more pronounced expression due to the planets in conjunction-and other aspects, to a lesser degree.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:31 PMMantis
It's interesting that you use the word "consciousness" because I've viewed the ascendant exactly like that although I haven't put a word to it but rather thought of it as the apparent characteristics and tendencies of the individual since the rising is the traditional surface - which makes the descendant the abstract, blurred undercurrent... I really concur with it being ones consciousness, it really fits.
But if the asc is the consciousness, what is the descendant? -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 12:41 PMOh I think I made a typo again, I meant "conscience" like you said, not consciousness, although come to think of it the asc might be about consciousness as well... cause that's not the same thing right? I feel a bit confused now. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:07 PMNope. You guys are both confusing the terms. Conscience has to do with telling you what is "right" and "wrong". Consciousness is about being aware and knowing that you are, etc. In a nutshell. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:11 PMWell yeah that's what I thought it was although I got them confused when I realized I'd started talking about consciousness instead... Still wondering what the descendant would be if the ascendant is the conscience within the individual though.
But even though the words mean different things I still think they both apply to the ascendant. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:19 PMI would ten to think that the whole chart goes into consciousness since it involves the totality of "You." You, of course, being the Self. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:23 PMI'm finding the idea of ascendant ≈ conscience very interesting... -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 1:33 PMI've absolutely never thought of the Ascendant as the conscience before, but, yes, that IS an interesting notion...
I wonder what a Geminiian conscience would tell a person is right, though? That just seems dangerous and like it could easily lead one astray! I do tend to find that it troubles my conscience to take sides or write people off, though. Maybe that's a positive function of a Gemini-colored conscience.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:14 PMmany people relate the ascendant to your soul-self, or your true self, the sun sign being the ego and the moon the emotional body. I'm not saying I subscribe to that theory, but maybe it would relate to what is being discussed.
I personally don't see Scorpio Rising as my 'conscience' but perhaps its different for everyone. Considering the second house represents our values and what we hold as worthy, perhaps conscience is shared amongst several 'players' in the chart. However I can definitely understand how Virgo Rising may feel like a conscience, after all isn't Virgo Rising very conscientious? But would Sagittarius Rising represent its conscience? I just don't know. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:37 PMThat makes sense, Paul, that Virgo already tends to be conscientious and would serve the function of giving reminders of what is right to do. I wonder if that would make Virgo placements, in general, serve a bit of a 'conscience' function? But it makes sense to me that the conscience would be made up of a number of chart factors. I would also think the Moon could work that way, too, maybe. Like that nagging, instinctive feeling about something - if it feels right or wrong and jives with what makes you comfortable. Not that the Moon can't be self-serving, too, though. And the 2nd House makes a lot of sense. Perhaps Saturn? Jupiter?
Since Sagittarius is so interested in justice, I could see it functioning in a rather straight-forward way as a conscience; a nagging reminder to do and defend what is just. I think Aries and Gemini puzzle me the most, if we're analyzing Ascendant-as-conscience (or part of a person's conscience) for every sign. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:38 PMAha! Posted late... Your description of Aries as possibly interested in chivalry and defending the underdog sort of solved my puzzling. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:45 PMAck! Triple-posting!
I was thinking more about the conscience and, though the ascendant colors your view of the world, it doesn't necessarily directly deal with what's 'right' and 'wrong.' Certain things feel 'right' and 'wrong' to it, but I would imagine all the personal planets (perhaps every placement) have their own senses of what feels 'right' and 'wrong' to them, as well. I wonder, astrologically, where a sense of moral values comes in. And I'm just being redundant, now, but I'll say again that I agree that it (conscience/morality) probably comes in through various placements. Or perhaps emphasis on particular signs colors planets with more of a sense of morality. Which might make some people more 'moral' than others (or at least more inclined to think about morals)... and I'm not sure if that's true. Is it? Hmm.
Wow, tangential musing!
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:46 PMWell, I have Virgo rising and Scorpio Saturn in the 3rd. Guess which one I think kicks my ass more in the conscience department? -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:49 PMhmm I would guess Scorpio Saturn, scorpio laying down the law in a penetrating demeanor, making your mind always guessing yours and others motives -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:51 PMSugarmoon-
You are dead on with the sag rising, my husband like I said is one and he is ALWAYS thinking of others like the world as a whole. For instance I told him about one of our union members who needed leave donated due to a cancer diagnosis in their 5 year and I instantly felt the pain he was feeling and he doesn't even know these people, or the stray dog he saves from getting hit and I have to convince him we can't take the dog in!! The list could go on and on and I am sure it doesn't help he has Mercury, Sun and Neptune in the 12th house.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:59 PMI am not seeing the Ascendant as a conscience at all, folks. Saturn, yeah ~ that fits.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:47 PMpaul
"many people relate the ascendant to your soul-self, or your true self, the sun sign being the ego and the moon the emotional body."
I've heard that the moon is the traditional representative of the individuals true self and soul, the "inner/ true self" and the sun the everyday self and vitality, the ascendant the outward mask....
"But would Sagittarius Rising represent its conscience? I just don't know. "
I think it could. My mother for instance has a sagittarius rising and she has a type of spiritual conscience. Her conscience is very reliant upon her spirituality and what she believes, while for me with my virgo asc my conscience is about my body, the state of my health and daily reality. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:13 PMsugar moon
"I've heard that the moon is the traditional representative of the individuals true self and soul, the "inner/ true self" and the sun the everyday self and vitality, the ascendant the outward mask.... "
Yup that's the other common one. Its hard to know which is which.
Amiable
I also would think Saturn should figure here somewhere with regards conscience. Saturn is the planet that tells you what you SHOULD do. It is the taskmaster and can be strict and is where we say, no, that's the line, I won't cross it. I think its certainly a player. Perhaps venus also in terms of values and worth, the things we hold dear.
As I say I don't think any one placement will show it definitively, there's probably several factors. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:18 PMPerhaps. I think it is often the case that we want to pigeon hole certain human qualities too simplistically and we disregard the chart dynamic detrimentally in the process. Many aspects can account for things that with someone else might materialize merely by a single thing. I think it is important to remember that what may be straightforward in one person is complex or subtle in another, even when they look the same or similar. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:25 PMtrue true, like I said there isn't a simple question in astrology there for no simple answer :) In regards to my husbands ascendant, has anyone come across a minute being a huge factor? For instance my birth certificate says I was born at 10am but my mom said it was actually 9:58 now for me the two minutes doesn't matter but for my husband a minute literally makes a HUGE difference! -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:28 PMI really doubt it, Sarah. Again, look to the PERSON, not the chart, first. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:33 PMI get confused though because he has a virgo moon which can remind me of a rising capricorn, my guess is he is a rising sagittarius "larger than life", sees the good in others, independent but he is a sun sagittarius so I get confused. The rising sign is what you see on the surface so that is why I asked people who didn't know him very well. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:42 PMI don't know that a Virgo Moon would look much like a Capricorn rising. I would thin a Virgo Moon would be pretty fussy and anxious, whereas a Cap rising would be less about details and more about propriety. It would stand to reason that as a Sag Sun, Sag rising would magnify that, and it sounds to me like you see beaucoup Sag.
I kind of wonder if folks see me more as my Sun or as my rising sign these days, especially in certain contexts. Life circumstances at one time really brought the Virgo rising to the fore, but now, with a different set of circumstances, I think Leo Sun might be more what people see. I think we may need to consider the possibility that the "dominant" influence may vary according to what life throws at us at any given time.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:19 PMI would say it can become kind of 'weak' in the personality, because I'm also an Aries rising but I don't really show it much either (unless I'm mad, but it's pretty rare for me to get too riled up though lol). I think because I have so much Pisces influence (Sun, Mercury, and Venus), it kind of overrules my Aries tendencies lol.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:22 PM"Can a person's ascendant be weak in their personality? For instance my bestfriend is a rising Aries, I would not have thought she was because she is not agressive, she does not have a me first attitude etc...BUT her mars is in libra-aries opposite which makes her passive aggressive and she always gives into others first and never herself. "
I'm not entirely convinced that this is an example of someone with a weak rising sign. Certainly one of the traits of an Aries Rising is to approach the world with an aggressive streak, however that is only ONE manifestation of Aries Rising. Another might be a sense of chivalry, a sense of defending the underdog, of being a self-starter, independant and an catalyst for change. You can do all these things and not have a 'me first' attitude or even be aggressive. with Mars in Libra perhaps this energy is just more balanced rather than weaker. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:33 PM"Aries Rising is to approach the world with an aggressive streak, however that is only ONE manifestation of Aries Rising. Another might be a sense of chivalry, a sense of defending the underdog, of being a self-starter, independant and an catalyst for change. You can do all these things and not have a 'me first' attitude or even be aggressive. with Mars in Libra perhaps this energy is just more balanced rather than weaker."
I try to defend the underdog, and I guess have a sense of chivalry.. I always thought it was more because of my Pisces though lol, but I guess it could be the Aries too. My Mars is in Capricorn, I don't know how that would affect my Aries rising though?
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:43 PMPaul I do see that in my friend. She definitely cheers on the under dog, she is extremely motivated but she does things selflessly BUT even though she doesn't say it she always expects someone to return the favor and gets mad when they don't, she just would never tell them, maybe the mars libra does balance out the ego... -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 2:45 PMSo everyone is in agreement that the ascendant could represent our concise?
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:42 PMI think the ascendant might play the immediate and daily role in our conscience while saturn for instance is the long-term, stretched out part of the conscience. The part of our conscience that deals with the more general aspects of how we lead our lives with a larger time span taken in account.
So the asc is our daily guilt and saturn is our guilt of the decade ;) -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:47 PM"So the asc is our daily guilt and saturn is our guilt of the decade."
I think that's about right in my own case, but I realized my asc and saturn are anchored together in ways that muddy the waters for me. Still, Saturn as the longterm over-arching conscience, and the ascendant as the immediate moment-to-moment conscience is ringing my Yoda bells... I like... -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:53 PMYoda being our generation our Saturn is in libra which is a good place I heard for saturn, yours is in the 8th house so I am trying to figure out why you think your saturn effects you so negatively? And how is your asc anchored with it? -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:59 PM"...so I am trying to figure out why you think your saturn effects you so negatively?"
Apologies if I gave you that impression, but my Saturn is in a good place all in all. Saturn's title as "the greater malefic" makes it sort of a party pooper for everyone, so I don't think it's really a bed of roses for anyone.
"And how is your asc anchored with it?"
Well, my Saturn is in an air sign, and my ascendant is an air sign, and my Saturn is at a friendly angle to my ascendant. In other words, my Saturn and Ascendant work together like mashed pertaters and gravy.
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Thu, October 8, 2009 - 3:51 PMsugarmoonpoison ~ I really can't say that my Virgo ascendent communicates much of a conscience for me. Virgo rising can be a little confusing because it has that hypercritical aspect that can go off the deep end about precision and look like it is about morality when really it is just about sticking to paradigms and parsing the phenomena. It is not terribly taken up by whether or not this or that sexual relationship, for example, is going to blast your values or not. Saturn, on the other hand, will pin you to the wall over something like that and chew you up if you aren't inclined to look at it with scruples, and that can be pretty immediate if the outcome of the decision is swift. I also don't really see the ascendent as being imbued with a great "guilt" factor. In my view, it is sort of like a sieve that filters a lot of influences through is screens. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 2:44 AMamiable
I had to go look at your chart on your profile because I got convinced that you had some other planet at play and indeed you did, your jupiter conjunct asc does make it a bit different.
Having jupiter there in a tight leash might be the reason for you not recognizing your conscience as having a virgoan nature. -
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Re: Ascendant Strong or Weak?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:07 AMI also have a 1H Mercury reinforcing the rest. I would think that all these aspects would tend to make me feel that my conscience was more Virgoan rather than less so if conscience really was an association for the ascendent.
But I don't think these aspects account for my having the sense that my conscience has more of a Scorpio nature and is concerned with Scorpio matters rather than with Virgo ones.
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