Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

topic posted Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:07 PM by  crystal rose
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does anyone know of astrological indications of shyness or being reserved? i have always been very quiet and shy. when i am around people i have a really hard time talking, i literally can't think of anything to say, although my mind is always going going going. (its always been a source of frustration for me.) i just recently have started reading about and studying astrology, so i am very new at interpreting, but i have read that pluto in the 3rd house has a tendency to make a person silent. does anyone else have any ideas about anything else in the natal chart that could indicate these characteristics? curious...
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crystal rose
Seattle
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  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:22 PM
    I would be interested in knowing the sign of your 3rd House.
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      Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:25 PM
      Venus rules her third and is square Saturn. I really would look at that aspect as the biggest clue...
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        Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:34 PM
        Her Venus and Saturn are in mutual reception though (via domicile - very strong), which is nice. That does lessen the negative effects of that square aspect. Planets in mutual reception are better at working together and dealing with their issues.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:40 PM
      While your Pluto is in 3H Libra, your 3rd House is predominately in Scorpio, which is what I wondered. I sort of assumed you didn't have a chart posted until Teresa referred to your aspects, since you didn't mention it.

      To me, I was thinking that your feeling tongue-tied sounded like 3H Pluto Scorpio, which it is close to being. I have 3H Saturn in Scorpio, and I think that this may be something of a characteristic. It will be lessened or increased by the kind of contacts you have ~ that is to say whether or not they are able to listen or simply want themselves to be heard. While you are still plumbing all the implications of whatever is being said to you, others may be moving on.

      This probably sounds crazy, but I would recommend just blurting stuff out for a while, even if it seems random. Let Pluto do the break out work for you and see where he takes you. What have you got to lose, really?
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:16 PM
        sorry for the confusion, i forgot to mention that my chart was posted!

        i like your recommendation below. it doesn't sound crazy, i have actually been entertaining this idea lately, sounds like a fun experiment :)

        "This probably sounds crazy, but I would recommend just blurting stuff out for a while, even if it seems random. Let Pluto do the break out work for you and see where he takes you. What have you got to lose, really?"
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    Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:24 PM
    Pluto in the 3rd does produce a very active mind, but I can see how it would be a challenging placement in speaking and being at ease with others. Pluto is a planet I associate a lot with control and power, and so your words are more likely to be controlled and also the type that people listen to. You probably choose your words more carefully, and perhaps you think differently than most of the people that you know. I'm sort of shy (or at least seem that way to others) and very introverted also, and I attribute it to my Saturn in the 3rd in Virgo for the most part. I also have a Taurus Sun, which tends towards shyness.

    I would think someone with a Capricorn Venus square Saturn is likely to be more reserved, which you have. These types are less likely to trust other people's motives and to feel more awkward in social situations. Venus is the planet that joys in social situations whereas Saturn is the planet that deals with maturity and limitations, so their energies are at odds with one another. Your love life must be challeneged a lot by this placement also, since Venus is is the 5th?

    Your Pluto in the 3rd with the square from the Sun requires a lot of privacy. I have several relatives with this aspect and one of their biggest things is that they do not act themselves around others, perhaps due to internal issues, such as lack of self worth, but also because they tend towards dark thoughts and mistrusting people's motives. Pluto being in the house of communications does seem to compound a problem like this.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:13 PM
      thank you for your very interesting insights teresa,! all of it was very right on in terms of how i've experienced communicating with others, particularly here:
      “Pluto is a planet I associate a lot with control and power, and so your words are more likely to be controlled and also the type that people listen to. You probably choose your words more carefully, and perhaps you think differently than most of the people that you know.”

      also, what you said about the venus in capricorn being square Saturn was intriguing, i hadn’t paid attention to that aspect before. i think your interpretation is very good. as for the love life, it may pose a challenge sometimes in my relationship in that I am always trying to be responsible and he wants me to loosen up :)

      “Your Pluto in the 3rd with the square from the Sun requires a lot of privacy. I have several relatives with this aspect and one of their biggest things is that they do not act themselves around others,…”

      another great observation. i find it all very fascinating, i have so much to learn! i appreciate your input, very informative and thoughtful, thank you.
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:26 PM

    I have a long history of shyness
    I had a history of speech problems connected to Dyslexia and Dyspraxia,and I had intensive speech therapy. I used to have very disorganized,unintelligible speech that came off sounding like a foreign language. It was found out to be speech reversals in connection to my auditory reversals. I had auditory therapy first. I am very softspoken too with a highpitched tone (Think Michael Jackson) I tend to have have hesitant speech. I tend to pauses,umms. I can slightly stutter when I am nervous when I am speaking in front of people. I used to shake badly during public speaking.
    My speech tends to rambling,loose,mildly tangential,and a little organized. I also tend to speak rapidly. That type of speech is called cluttering too,and its found to be common in people with neuro-divergent conditions like Dyslexia and Dyspraxia. Those speech irregularities that got me to be misdiagnosed as schizoffective bipolar disorder by psychiatrists. As a neuro-diversity advocate, I try to help raise awareness about speech problems and how they are not connected to low intelligence and that they can be connected to neuro-divergence and that care needs to be taken to not misdiagnose them as having schizophrenia or bipolar. My mother told me that my father had the same speech problems.


    In whole sign house system:

    I have Sun in 3rd house quincunx retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th
    the Sun also conjuncts the transneptunians,Ixion and Quoaar in Scorpio in 3rd,and that suggests that my mind,communications,and overall thought processes are out of the ordinary,nonconformist,otherworldly...pretty much outside the box,nonlinear more so than the outerplanets because transneptunians orbit beyond the outerplanets. Pluto in 3rd might be the same for you. After all,Pluto is a transneptunian object too.

    I have Mercury-Venus in Scorpio and it parallels Neptune in Sagittarius,and Saturn contraparallels that.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:30 PM
      "i literally can't think of anything to say, although my mind is always going going going. "

      I am the same way that's a word retrieval issue aka Dysnomia which tends to be connected Dyslexia. not all people with Dysnomia have Dyslexia though.


      here is my blog that explains about speech problems. It's from Dr. Levinson's book

      people.tribe.net/4b0cf8c4-...0a34ae8e54
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:49 PM

        my mom has Pluto in Leo in 3rd, and she had history of not talking much. She doesn't have speech problems though she told me that she was afraid of something stupid. She also told me that she has a lot of neuro-divergent traits when I showed her a list about them that were originated from Dr. Harold N. Levinson.

        my mom has an exact Mercury parallel Pluto to add to that too.
        she has Sun-Mercury-Venus-Jupiter-Uranus-Pluto-Ascendant in declinations

        she is an intense communicator too.

        she doesn't really have any hard Saturn connections


        also my father didn't have any hard aspects to his Mercury either,and so I have doubts about traditional Astrology stuff. I feel that there needs to be more exploration about neurological/learning differences/speech problems in Astrology.

        he had Sun-Mercury in Capricorn trine stationary Saturn-stationary Jupiter in Taurus

        my maternal uncle Eddie had speech problems that included stuttering too,and he had Mercury in Virgo trine Saturn

        also speech problems can be issue connected to the overemphasizing the right hemisphere. It can be connected to the mind thinking mainly in pictures instead of words. Therefore, I wouldn't just focus on Saturn aspects in connection to 3rd house and Mercury. That's something that many neurotypicals would do. I'd like at aspects involving the outer planets and the transneptunians.

        even in COSI, Mercury = Sun/Neptune has one of its interpretations, speech defects. I happen to have Mercury conjunct Sun/Neptune midpoint myself. Because my Sun is almost exactly conjunct Ixion, I have Mercury conjunct Neptune/Ixion midpoint too. That's like Mercury conjunct Neptune/Pluto midpoint.

        my neuro-psychologist said the following in my test report

        "Persons with strong visual skills who lack comparable verbal facility can often be frustrated because they have difficulty communicating their ideas in a highly verbal society"

        that is definitely true for me. When I was a little kid, I couldn't think in words at all. I had to be taught to think in words and led to me be competent with language. Without it, I was autistic-like.


        so speech problems aren't necessarily connected to weak left hemisphere.
        It can be connected to an overly strong right hemisphere that interferes with left hemisphere processing.
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:47 PM
    There's probably a kabillion possible indicators of shyness in the chart. It isn't always obvious at first glance either - I have a Leo heavy, Libra-laden chart, both signs considered to be VERY social - and I am, if I know the other person WELL. But usually I am very shy with most others and am a professionally-diagnosed social phobic.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:14 AM
      Book

      You're a social phobic with libra placements? Interesting. I know leo can tend towards needing to be comfortable sometimes to open up but I've never seen libra placements in relation to social phobia. What conjunctions and/or oppositions do you have to the inner planets and do you have for instance alot of squares?
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Fri, October 23, 2009 - 10:54 PM
        "You're a social phobic with libra placements? Interesting. I know leo can tend towards needing to be comfortable sometimes to open up but I've never seen libra placements in relation to social phobia. What conjunctions and/or oppositions do you have to the inner planets and do you have for instance alot of squares?"

        Feel free to take a look at my chart - it's in my profile. And Yes, that's really just code for, "I'm too lazy to type out all those placements one by one".
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Sat, October 24, 2009 - 4:53 AM
          Book

          Well, you do have mars in cancer and venus in virgo. This might attribute to a shy or socially withdrawn nature.
          Personally I've always been very social until about after 16-17 when the need to be alone and away from social situations hit me like a brick wall. Since then I have been sort of ristrictive in that department. I do know that being around lots of people is good for me but I kind of have to push myself to do it, and I have cancer and virgo influence as well + moon conj pluto and mars in cancer(I also have mars square jupiter and pluto). Even though I'm not a social phobic I have had a tendency to withdraw.

          Well, even though you have jupiter and saturn you "only" have one inner planet in libra which is conjunct secretive and scorpionic pluto anyway, and residing in the 8th. I envisioned this libra stellium wih your inner planets but now it makes more sense.
          • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

            Sat, October 24, 2009 - 4:47 PM
            "Well, you do have mars in cancer and venus in virgo. This might attribute to a shy or socially withdrawn nature.
            Personally I've always been very social until about after 16-17 when the need to be alone and away from social situations hit me like a brick wall. Since then I have been sort of ristrictive in that department. I do know that being around lots of people is good for me but I kind of have to push myself to do it, and I have cancer and virgo influence as well + moon conj pluto and mars in cancer(I also have mars square jupiter and pluto). Even though I'm not a social phobic I have had a tendency to withdraw.

            Well, even though you have jupiter and saturn you "only" have one inner planet in libra which is conjunct secretive and scorpionic pluto anyway, and residing in the 8th. I envisioned this libra stellium wih your inner planets but now it makes more sense."

            When I read the part about you having moon conjunct pluto AND mars, I kinda went "Whoa", in my head. What's THAT like lol.

            About the Libra placements, true, but it depends - in some places I've read that Jupiter is considered an inner planet too, and I've also read that the other planets become 'personalized', or inner planets themselves in a way, if they form a lot of aspects to your true inner planets, and that's basically what I adhere to and go with, so in that sense to me, they count.
            • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

              Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:26 AM
              Book

              Oh, I don't have moon conj pluto AND mars, I ment I have moon conj pluto the aspect, + mars in cancer. My moon conj pluto is in scorpio at a 0 degree orb, but who knows maybe thats equivalent to a moon-mars-pluto conjunction haha.

              And yes, sure jupiter and saturn count but they are still outer planets. Although they do have some influence on the individual (especially in cases where they're conj or opp inner planets) but their influence are different from the inner planets in the sense that they don't express themselves 'immediately' like the inner planets but over time and in the larger theme of the individuals life.

              So with that said I think the outer planets touch upon the individuals spiritual or long term goals, as well as possibly the individuals view on the world and society and everything at large. Adding of course the aspects between the inners and outers that are a part of this 'relationship' to ones outer planets as well, while the inner planets alone are contained within your own person.
              • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:45 AM
                "Oh, I don't have moon conj pluto AND mars, I ment I have moon conj pluto the aspect, + mars in cancer. My moon conj pluto is in scorpio at a 0 degree orb, but who knows maybe thats equivalent to a moon-mars-pluto conjunction haha.

                And yes, sure jupiter and saturn count but they are still outer planets. Although they do have some influence on the individual (especially in cases where they're conj or opp inner planets) but their influence are different from the inner planets in the sense that they don't express themselves 'immediately' like the inner planets but over time and in the larger theme of the individuals life.

                So with that said I think the outer planets touch upon the individuals spiritual or long term goals, as well as possibly the individuals view on the world and society and everything at large. Adding of course the aspects between the inners and outers that are a part of this 'relationship' to ones outer planets as well, while the inner planets alone are contained within your own person."


                No, what I meant is that depending on what site you read, Jupiter is sometimes considered an inner planet too. And that aside, I've read in a couple places that even the planets that are universally considered outer generational planets, are considered personal planets, honorary inner planets themselves, if they make a lot of aspects to the 'true' inner planets in a chart. So No, I don't consider the outer planets as just generational.
                • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                  Sun, October 25, 2009 - 1:08 AM
                  Book

                  I don't know where you've read that jupiter is considered an inner planet since it's considered an outer planet by both astrology and astronomy due to the asteroid belt between mars and jupiter. The inner/outer planet line can be read on the wikipedia link about the solar system:
                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oute...er_planets

                  In astrology this can be read here:
                  www.associatedcontent.com/artic...s.html

                  I do agree that the outer planets does have an impact on the individual as well, but I don't think it has an influence in the same way as the inner planets since everyone born within the same couple of years would have the same characteristics.
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                    Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                    Sun, October 25, 2009 - 7:32 AM
                    when it comes to astrology it is best to ask what a person means by a comment or perhaps if possible do as sugar did and site the reference.
                    the comment doesn't literally mean inner but rather personal whereas anything after saturn would be considered outer or collective.
                    It is esoetric terminology . In esoteric astrology Jupiter and Saturn are pretty special because they are like a bridge so to speak .
                    And in traditional astrology these two planets are like time keepers.
                    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                      Sun, October 25, 2009 - 8:22 AM
                      >>>
                      And in traditional astrology these two planets are like time keepers.
                      >>>

                      I had never heard of jupiter as relating to timing - I think I could see saturn related to a certain type of regularity.
                      That doesn't mean jupiter isn't related to timing of course (I just never heard of it that way).
                      I had always thought of the moon as being related to the timings of things (and mercury - maybe a little bit uranus too).
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                    Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                    Sun, October 25, 2009 - 8:16 AM
                    >>>
                    I do agree that the outer planets does have an impact on the individual as well, but I don't think it has an influence in the same way as the inner planets since everyone born within the same couple of years would have the same characteristics.
                    >>>

                    It seems to me that aspects between outerplanets and personal planets or angles can have a personal effect.
                    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                      Sun, October 25, 2009 - 8:28 AM
                      riptide

                      "It seems to me that aspects between outerplanets and personal planets or angles can have a personal effect"

                      Yes, that is how outer planets become personal in my opinion as well.
                    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                      Sun, October 25, 2009 - 8:34 AM
                      I looked at the chart again for ways to find a way to get some of your many thoughts out in conversation with others.

                      I see saturn conjunct jupiter in libra (lbeneficial relational restriction/support) trine to mercury conjunct mars in aquarius(expressing/acting on ideas in social settings).

                      Could you try using the environments around you that seem intimidating or something right now as a way of guiding or selecting from your many thoughts which ones fit best in a particular circumstance?
                      I think I remember reading something about performances being something you used to do. Maybe there was some help and support given in those situations in that there was a certain role, script or part with well defined and timed responses to express.
                      I guess you can't script every situation, but there may be some cues you could look for in choosing a good thing to say with respect to your own part in a particular social situation at any particular time.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

                    Mon, October 26, 2009 - 4:38 PM
                    "Book

                    I don't know where you've read that jupiter is considered an inner planet since it's considered an outer planet by both astrology and astronomy due to the asteroid belt between mars and jupiter. The inner/outer planet line can be read on the wikipedia link about the solar system:
                    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oute...er_planets

                    In astrology this can be read here:
                    www.associatedcontent.com/artic...s.html

                    I do agree that the outer planets does have an impact on the individual as well, but I don't think it has an influence in the same way as the inner planets since everyone born within the same couple of years would have the same characteristics."



                    I was confused about Jupiter's status a long while ago, and actually went Googling whether it was an outer or inner planet, and a lot of sites would say completely different things. Some said it was an inner planet, some said it was an outer.

                    Again, yeah, the outer planets are generational. I know that. But I've read that if your outer planets heavily aspect your inner planets, they in a sense, become honorary inner planets as well and become very personally relevant for that individual, they aren't just 'outer generational planets' anymore for them. That's why I count them.
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:06 PM
    I swing between being very sociable to being very reserved. When placed in a group environment, for example, I can either force myself to come out and talk, or just shut up the whole night. Mostly it's for the fear of saying the wrong things since it's been observed that I really can't seem to say the right things at the right time. And I can be very shy until someone forces me to speak out. That's usually because I have no wish to intereact but placed within a social situation, there can be little choice sometimes.

    I think these are the aspects that indicate these traits: mercury opposite uranus in 11th/4th house and pluto in 3rd trine sun. Sun opposite neptune.
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      Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:28 PM
      These are a few things I have come across with this self description.

      The following are a few possibilities .

      A) are there more planets in the personal houses or bottom part of the chart . 4th house half of the chart for those who live in the southern hemiphere.

      B)IF the luna is in introverted element like earth .

      C)Several earth signs can cause a bit of introvertness or the person behind the genenis or talents kind thing.

      D)IF Venus in Capricorn is a huge for this kind of shyness. You may be able to get up in front of a crowd and sing but as for small talk ot social setting arge unless you go on a nature hike or something.

      E) IF those are not the case then it could be something you learned more so than a tendency.

      Is your chart posted?

      if not does any of this make any sense?
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        Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:36 PM
        "IF Venus in Capricorn is a huge for this kind of shyness. You may be able to get up in front of a crowd and sing but as for small talk ot social setting arge unless you go on a nature hike or something."

        It's interesting that you say this because I know someone who was in theater in his younger years who cannot stand social situations (he's a hermit). He's definitely a Venus in Capricorn, and I always bugged him about his Capricorny ways.
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:57 PM

          I think that it really depends on what leads people to be shy

          many people are shy in connection to insecurity,low self esteem

          some of them could be due to thinking that they ugly, and they may not be....they might have some acne or even acne scars but that doesn't mean that they look ugly

          some of them could be due to problems with speech, they could make mistakes when they talk like former President George W. Bush,and that could get them viewed as being stupid, and so that could lead to shyness

          some of them could be due to being clumsy,awkward,and problems with coordination,and that could lead them to being awkward when it comes to performing motor movement actions in front of people including walking,talking,shaking hands,eye contact as well as intimate things like sexual intercourse because that requires good use of coordination

          some of them could be due to having problems listening, they might need things to be repeated, and that might give others the impression that they are stupid

          some of them could be due to having problems understanding/perceiving emotional/social cues like gestures,tone of voice, and that could lead them to have trouble interacting with people,and that could lead them be shy

          some people could have been abused in some way,and that could lead them to think that they are nervous
          some might have trust issues and be very suspicious in connection to being abused in the past.

      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Fri, October 23, 2009 - 8:35 AM
        Yep, ?, what you noted does make sense to this venus in capricorn, moon in virgo, and etc.

        Sometimes people post their charts in their profile photos rather than in the astro. tribe.
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:52 PM
          Venus in Capricorn DEFINITELY means awkwardness in social situations. I can identify totally with the "can stand up in front of a crowd and sing but plain suck in a small, private conversation" statement.... or however it went
          • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

            Sat, October 24, 2009 - 8:38 AM
            Something about nature hikes helping ease the flow of conversation.

            The large crowd stuff depends on the situation, if its like a class room, it sucks, if its job or entertainment related its different.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Sun, October 25, 2009 - 2:32 PM
      Jacq

      Yup this is me tooo! I was actually having a dilemma this weekend! Some friends invited me to go......and I was having a small bit of social anxiey about going........I decided not to go....cause I didn't feel too comfortable....but I read your post and said yeah this describes me

      Well I have Sun and Mercury at 0-1 degree Virgo which I know is on the Leo/Virgo Cusp....which is a cusp known for hiding and revealing......introverted and extroverted tendencies.........I also have chiron in the 5th house.....so there is a wound there in the fifth house. which governs fun, romance, love , children, creativity..etc...I also noticed Saturn Square my Asc .......so I feel awkward with how I present my self to the world, to begin with........Also Pisces is the Ruler of my third house.....which is a shy sign....and My Venus is in Cancer........trine Uranus and Square Pluto
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Mon, October 26, 2009 - 5:59 AM
        Interesting. While our charts are significantly different, we share some placements and aspects, Blue.
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          Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Mon, October 26, 2009 - 11:20 AM
          RE:see saturn conjunct jupiter in libra (lbeneficial relational restriction/support) trine to mercury conjunct mars in aquarius(expressing/acting on ideas in social settings). ....

          A possible tropical astrology chart stuff for 360` 12 house systems for person charts .
          there are sites that further explain the technquies and basic defintions .
          adding to this Libra is abiut relationships , balance, harmony, mutural consideration, and fairness but eclusive tendencies or a given vibe of , may allude others into thinking that you are not interested. Doesn't mean it is true of your motives or intent more than likely contrary but the vibe may registar that way for some.
          you can achieve and overcome the challenge yet this does it mean that it will not need to be maintained . In other words, a bad day can be reversable or become something better rather than implying failure. It is kind of like with some who want to think positive and then work at that and then everything is peachy and wonderful then one day shit is dumped on everything . Doesn't mean life isn't still wonderful or that it didn't work or that it still can be a good method but basically now you must figure out what needs fertilizer and what does not.

          Mercury and the third house is usually the basic placements to look at for communicating the others are additions to the chart
          These were just some ideas with the jupiter ,saturn conjunction. That conjunction is looked upon a little different than most faster moving planets say for example conjunctions to sun, moon , mercury, and venus .
          a spouse would be fortunate to have a mate with that aspect but this is only an opinion on my part.
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:30 PM
        Blue!

        I find that if one has strong virgoan (sun, moon or rising), there is always a hidden aspect with them. Like a typical Mercurial person, they are communicative and social but seldom indulge in their personal details.

        Your Saturn/Asc square sure sounds like it can create feelings of awkwardness in how you seem to present yourself to the world too. Is your Saturn at the top or bottom half of the chart (thinking it's in the lower hemisphere)?

        It seems that your venus aspects to Uranus and Pluto may well be the friction of introverted and extroverted tendencies! Sometimes it's great to go out and have fun without prohibitions. Sometimes it just takes too much effort. Yeah venus in cancer can be shy :)
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:28 PM
    There are many ways I can think of for a person to be verbally challenged/shy.


    What you are describing sounds like communication energy getting redirected forcefully towards the thinking (mind going going). It could be a case of the words having a hard time keeping up with your thoughts - or a case of your thoughts being generally out of sync with the people you are trying to converse with.
    There seems to be something compulsive about it so there may be a connection to a stellium or to H12 or maybe ... maybe neptune ... maybe pluto.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:35 PM
      Looking at your chart - the moon square to uranus seemed to reflect the things you are saying pretty well.

      Moon on the ascendant might indicate some sort of security issues around self presentation. Uranus is at your IC which seems to relate to an inner life filled with thinking and innovating and ideas. The square between these could present itself as bad timing between what you are thinking and what you feel secure presenting - or what your proper reaction to the communal and social movements around you might be.

      The words might be there but maybe not at the right time or pace to match with people around you and maybe it could relate to more than just words .... perhaps all kinds of other reactions and figuring out where your self, emotions and thoughts fit with those around you.

      That's my guess anyway.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Thu, October 22, 2009 - 8:58 PM

      I looked at her chart

      Her Mercury-Mars conjunction squares the heliocentric Mercury Nodes in Taurus/Scorpio

      heliocentric nodes move very slowly,and so they have to do with the collective
      heliocentric nodes are collective communications

      Mercury in aspect to heliocentric Mercury Nodes is Maximum Effectiveness according to Cosmobiologist Pamela Rowe's article on the planetary nodes. It's a strong emphasis on communications,mental processing, but with the square it's more challenging. Personal communications in a friction connection with collective communications. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The challenges of the aspect can lead to action,putting effort in communications to be a better communicator

      I have Mercury oppose/conjunct heliocentric Mercury Nodes and heliocentric Mars Nodes myself. I can relate to the mind going going. I have a very active mind.


      information on heliocentric nodes are here: Grant Lewi and Dane Rudhyar used them too. So does Diana Rosenberg
      mysite.verizon.net/bonniehi...y.14.html
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:01 PM

        I looked at your midpoints involving Mercury.

        that's what Cosmobiologists,Uranian Astrologers do.

        looking at your Mercury:
        conjuncts Mars with 45 minutes of arc, and that indicates an active mind. not only that...Your Mercury parallels Mars with 34 minutes of arc. so suggests the mind being more active. That's a Mercury-Mars occultation.

        squares Jupiter/Neptune midpoint with 28 minutes of arc, and that indicates a mind with an expansive imagination,visualization.....it seems like there is the ability to think in pictures and visualize things. that can indicate possible of nonlinear type thinking but also can be good about seeing the big picture. It can indicate mental sensitivity.

        squares Saturn/Neptune midpoint with 47 minutes of arc, and this is the main midpoint that is associated with chronic health issues. It can indicate the possibility of problems with the nervous system. It can indicate the possibility of inhibitions,insecurity,shyness,fear,phobia in communications. It can also indicate that the mind has a structured imagination. It can be a mind that combine linear and nonlinear thought processes. It can indicate mental sensitivity.
        I have something similar as you for I have Saturn contraparallel Mercury-Neptune.

        square Sun/Ascendant midpoint with 57 minutes of arc, and this can indicate the thought processes are connected to expressing yourself with others and in relationships. How this manifest depends on other aspects which I have already went over.


        you also have your Mercury conjunct Uranus/Sedna midpoint with only 1 minute of arc. That would indicate that your mind is innovative,nonconformist,otherworldly. It can be a mind that feels overactive but very spacy. Sedna is named after the Inuit Goddess of the Sea and Underworld,and she has similarities with Neptune and Pluto. there can be much depth,sensitivity in your thought processes.
        I have something similar. I have Uranus oppose Mercury/Sedna midpoint with 17 minutes of arc.


        Your Midheaven oppose Moon/Mercury midpoint with 20 minutes of arc,and that indicates the aim of life,the inner being,"The I" is connection with the integration of the emotional and mental processes.

        what's interesting is that your Midheaven oppose Venus/Saturn midpoint with 26 minutes of arc, and this could indicate the aim of life,inner being,"The I" is connection with being socially reserved

        so you actually have what's called a planetary picture with your Moon/Mercury midpoint conjunct your Venus/Saturn midpoint. That's very relevant in Hamburg School/Uranian Astrology. Creator of Kepler Astrology Software, David Cochrane calls them isosceles trapezoids.
        cosmic.patterns.com/ArabicParts.htm

        Your Midheaven opposes that,and so that makes it relevant in Cosmobiology and other astrological systems that use midpoint pictures.

        You also have Midheaven oppose Venus/Jupiter midpoint with 8 minutes of arc, and this is mainly good for being social and having relationships...expansion in relationships in combination with your aim of life,inner being,"The I"

        You also have Midheaven oppose Moon/Mars midpoint with 1 minute of arc, and this indicates that the aim of life,inner being,"The I" is connected to the integration of the emotional nature and assertion, passionate feelings.

        so you actually have a multiple planetary picture of Midheaven = Moon/Mercury = Venus/Jupiter = Venus/Saturn = Moon/Mars

        You have Node oppose Sun/Mercury midpoint with 33 minutes of arc, and this is mainly about associations,connections that involve the integration of self expression and communications

        You have Node oppose Pluto/Midheaven midpoint with 10 minutes of arc, and this is about associations,connections that involve the integration of intensity,power,transformation and the aim of life,inner being, "The I"

        You have Node oppose Sun/Mars midpoint with 11 minutes of arc,and this is about associations,connections that involve the integration of self expression and assertion, passionate self expression, a lot of energy

        so you actually have a multiple planetary picture of Node = Sun/Mercury = Pluto/Midheaven = Sun/Mars

        your Node also square Moon/Venus midpoint with 10 minutes of arc,and this indicates that associations,connections involve the integration of the emotional nature and aesthetics as well as affectionate feelings. seems good for relationships. it's a nice one to have

        so you actually have Node = Sun/Mercury = Pluto/Midheaven = Sun/Mars


        Cosmobiologists,Uranian Astrologers,and other midpoint astrologers look at semisquares and sesquiquadrates, but I am not going to look at them. The direct midpoint pictures (conjunctions,oppositions) and the squares seem to show a good picture.


        on a hunch, I checked to see if your Mercury is in aspect to one of the large transneptunian objects (dwarf planets or dwarf planet candidates)

        Your Mercury square Ixion in 15'31 Scorpio with 2'03 orb
        Ixion is a plutino. that means that it has 2:3 orbital resonance with Neptune just like Pluto. that's why it was named after an underworld character by astronomers. therefore, your aspect is like Mercury square Pluto. It can intensity,transformation,depth involving the mind. evolutionary intensified lessons,experiences involving communications

        according to astronomically oriented astrologer Philip Sedgwick:

        Positive - understands karmic wheel, gives and uses a second chance, discerning

        Negative - lustful, inconsiderate, inclined to repeat errors, learns nothing from experience



        Your Mercury square Quaoar in 14'47 Scorpio with 2'47 orb.
        it's named after the Tongva Native American creation deity. It is said to be connected to creativity,inspiration. being a transneptunian, it's metaphysically oriented and has to do with evolutionary intensified lessons,experiences involving communications

        according to astronomically oriented astrologer,Philip Sedgwick:

        Positive - creative, inspiring, possibility oriented, uplifts sagging emotion, strong sense of self

        Negative - doom saying, prophet of Armageddon, controls others with fear


        www.philipsedgwick.com/

        interestingly, I have something similar to you. I have my Sun-Ixion-Quaoar conjunction in 3rd house. so my Ixion,Quaoar are involved in my communications just like yours is with your Mercury square Ixion-Quaoar conjunction.

        the average travel rate of your Mercury is 1'37 and,and so you have fast Mercury. that can indicate quick thinking,rapid thought processes
        I have a fast Mercury too with it being 1'30

        Your Mercury is in 17'34 Aquarius and your Sun is in 3'03 Aquarius. clockwise, your Mercury is behind the Sun. That indicates that you have an Epimethean mind which means that you are deliberate in communications. It means that you gather up your information before you communicate it to others. I am the same way with my Mercury in 18'21 Scorpio behind my Sun in 5'20 Scorpio.

        more about the Epimethean,Promethean Mercury stuff here
        www.khaldea.com/planets/merc_ed.shtml


        with your Moon having a travel speed of 12'38, it's slow because it's slower than the average which is 13'10

        Deliberate: Mercury behind the Sun and Slow Moon The native receives and processes information deliberately and slowly.

        www.cafeastrology.com/article...try.html



        I also looked at the planetary nodes in your chart

        heliocentric Mercury Nodes in 18'06 Taurus/Scorpio
        heliocentric Mars Nodes in 19'24 Taurus/Scorpio
        Mercury in 18'34 Aquarius

        the Mercury square heliocentric Mars and Mercury Nodes can indicate a highly active nervous system

        I am the same way with
        heliocentric Mercury Nodes in 18'00 Taurus/Scorpio
        heliocentric Mars Nodes in 19'20 Taurus/Scorpio

        so I have Mercury oppose/conjunct heliocentric Mars and Mercury Nodes to indicate a highly active nervous system


        even your heliocentric chart shows possible communication issues

        Your Mercury in 2'19 Aries
        oppose Saturn in 4'19 Libra
        oppose Jupiter in 0'46 Libra

        but it trines Earth in 3'03 Leo
        so there is some ease too, really nice aspect

        if you want to know more about Heliocentric Astrology,

        www.heliocentric-astrology.com/

        Philip Sedgwick also has a book on Heliocentric Astrology called Sun At The Center



        please feel free to ask questions
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:07 PM

          "I have something similar. I have Uranus oppose Mercury/Sedna midpoint with 17 minutes of arc."

          correction: Uranus oppose Mercury/Sedna midpoint with 17 minutes of arc
          due to 11th harmonic triangle
          11th harmonics resonate with Uranus,Aquarius,11th house
          • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

            Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:08 PM


            "I have something similar. I have Uranus oppose Mercury/Sedna midpoint with 17 minutes of arc."
            correction: Sedna oppose Mercury/Uranus midpoint with 17 minutes of arc due to 11th harmonic triangle
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:12 PM

          I looked at your chart with the whole sign house system

          Your Uranus is in Scorpio in 3rd house,and that could indicate the innovative,independent thinking/mind ,and that adds to the theme of your Mercury in Aquarius.

          Using traditional house rulerships with Scorpio being your 3rd house, Mars rules your 3rd house. It is conjunct Mercury. Therefore you have Mercury conjunct 3rd house ruler. That's a strong emphasis on communications. It can indicate a lot of mental activity, especially with the conjunction being in Aquarius.

          also your Mercury conjunct Mars in Aquarius and Uranus in Scorpio in 3rd share a theme.
        • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

          Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:54 PM
          thanks for your informational post raymond, there is definitely a lot that i would like to look into. i am not familiar yet with many of the items that you were looking at, but they sound very interesting, and thank you for providing links so that i can look into them more.

          "you also have your Mercury conjunct Uranus/Sedna midpoint with only 1 minute of arc. That would indicate that your mind is innovative,nonconformist,otherworldly. It can be a mind that feels overactive but very spacy. Sedna is named after the Inuit Goddess of the Sea and Underworld,and she has similarities with Neptune and Pluto. there can be much depth,sensitivity in your thought processes."

          definitely can relate to the mind that is overactive but very spacy :)
          • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

            Fri, October 23, 2009 - 12:34 AM

            how much of the things that you can you relate to and thought was accurate?
            I am especially curious about what you think about your midpoint pictures.

            also what things are you not familiar with?

            I will do my best to answer any questions that you have

            midpoints are used in Cosmobiology and Uranian Astrology.
            A lot of astrologers use them. Noel Tyl is a big time user of midpoints,but I don't agree with the 2 1/2 degree orb that he uses for them. I also don't believe in his using the 165 degree aspect with them. I like using no more than 1 degree orb for midpoint pictures. direct midpoint pictures could be 1 1/2 degree orb.


            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmobiology
            astromedicine.com/cosmobiology.htm
            www.cosmoastrology.com/
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:11 AM
    I've actually seen a pattern with the moon in the 1st relating to shyness for some reason, mostly with women. There are as always exceptions though. But the fact that they're in virgo might add to the shyness.

    Also, 5th house suns tend to be quite demure. All four 5th house suns I know are all somewhat shy.
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Fri, October 23, 2009 - 4:10 AM
    I think your Venus square Saturn is key. I have the exact same aspect, only in different signs, but with Venus in the 5th house and Saturn in the 2nd house, just like you. Venus is related to how you behave around other people, and especially how you behave around love interests. Saturn rules your 5th house, so there could be issues with you not finding yourself interesting enough. Some say that the 5th house is related to creativity, but I would rather call it your ability to shine, as in showing your character and individuality to the world. I guess I would could call the 5th house your spirit.
    So I'm guessing that you, just like me have a repressed and understated shine, because you don't think that you can shine or because you don't like your shine, or maybe because crawling out of your shell makes you feel uncomfortable. I tend to go back and forward from feelings of being invisible, and awkwardness from having the spotlight directed at me.

    I think, having the moon in the 1st house could also make you emotionally unstable and changeable, and with Virgo involved it could mean that you try to make everything perfect all the time. So whenever you're not completely at ease, you go round and round thinking about how you would make the situation more perfect.
    Pluto in the 3rd house could also indicate that you're a careful speaker, that you would rather be silent than risking making a fool of yourself, and with Pluto squaring your 5th house Sun, this trait is bound to supress your shiny traits even further.
  • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

    Tue, October 27, 2009 - 6:40 AM
    Hi Crystal Rose. I was ridiculously, inexplicably shy for most of my life, right into adulthood. It was so bad that if someone was standing on the sidewalk in front of my house, I would be late for work rather than walk past that person to get into my car. I was terrified to even say "hi" to someone in passing! In school, I wouldn't go socialize in the lunchroom- I would hide in the girl's restroom! How's that for a Gemini? I am basically not shy at all now, except for the normal social shyness that everyone feels from time to time (if I go to a party by myself and don't know anyone, for instance). It took years and years of constant exposure to all kinds of people before I could get to this point. Some advice I would give to you is to focus your energy on the person to whom you are speaking. A shy thing to do is to focus on ourselves while we are in conversation because we are always wondering how we are appearing to the other person. Focusing on the other person will be a great relief to you, and asking them questions about themselves will relieve you of having to think of something to say.

    If anyone wants to check my chart, it's posted on my profile.
    • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

      Tue, October 27, 2009 - 7:28 AM

      shrugs

      My mom has Sun in Gemini, and she told me that she tended to be very shy

      Using whole sign house system:


      She has her Sun in 12th house

      she also has more Cancer than anything else
      Ascendant,Mercury,Venus,Jupiter,Uranus,and South Lunar Node in Cancer in 1st

      she has Moon and Saturn in Scorpio in 5th
      • Re: Shyness/Verbally Challenged?

        Wed, October 28, 2009 - 8:18 AM
        "Luis...
        Jim Carrey has Venus in Capricorn....
        perhapse thats why he relies on his gemini moon and mercury aquarius to compensate?... "

        See, thats the thing, i basically dont have any extrovert sign placement in my chart, except for my sun in aquarius, all planets are located in shy signs (Capricorn, Scorpio, Taurus). And the moon conjunct pluto 0° orb in scorpio does seem to overkill, so trying to rely on something else is difficult (but not impossible), since every thing i do will be heavily colored by a Cappy influence and maybe some Scorp dashes.

        my venus in 1st DEFINITELY helps. im charming in my own way and can be delightfully sarcastic (if one could say i can rely on *some* thing id say these) but, honestly, im not a light individual. i can chill out and joke as much as i want BUT i always need to get serious and down to work later on.

        im not a social phobic, really, but i do feel awkward in large gatherings, and i particularly dont like loud crowds (so concerts? thats a no-no), blame venus and taurus for my sissy nature i guess. i totally prefer more intimate or private meetings, going from 2 to 4 or 5 people. thats just bliss and i can shine through as much as a sun in the 1st would do. but get more and more people into the mix and i tend to withdraw.

        so, in my experience, the main indicators for shyness are:

        - ASC
        - moon placement
        - venus placement

        (and it can be especially enhanced when afflicted by any of the malefics... which are basically every planet except sun, moon, jupiter and venus).

        IDK i guess i like my venus in capricorn, superiors almost always immediately like me for no apparent reason and i usually get favors from them. BUT i just wish chilling out and relaxing and just playing around could be easier.

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