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Whole Sign House System

topic posted Mon, September 21, 2009 - 7:26 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I read that other house systems other than the original house system, the whole sign house system were based on errors to begin with.


The following by Chris Brennan
Whole Sign Houses:
the original house system

In no other area of astrology is there so much mess and confusion than in the area of the so-called "houses". There are at least twenty or thirty different house systems or means of dividing the so-called "birthchart" into twelve segments of life activity.

The more commonly known house systems are: Whole signs(oldest), Equal House(1st century BC), Porphyry(3rd century AD), Alcabitus(6th century), Campanus(13th century), Regiomantus(14th century), Placidus(17th century), and Koch(20th century). Others include: Meridian(Midheaven), Topocentric, Morinus, Horizontal, Geodetic, Zodiacal, Svarogish, Krusinski, and so on.

In astrology, houses, mansions, or domains, are supposed to represent general areas of life activity. They are the grounding areas or arenas of expression for the planets. There are generally twelve houses, although in extreme northern or southern lattitudes there can be ten, depending on the house system used.

In modern astrology, two important points or "angles" are generally used in the construction of houses; the ascendant degree which begins the first house, and the Midheaven degree which starts the tenth house. At equatorial latitudes these two points are generally 90 degrees apart, but the further one moves north or south the greater or lesser the distance between them, resulting in uneven and sometimes intercepted(invisible) houses.

The most common house system in use today is the Placidus system named after Placidus de Tito of the 17th century. In this system, like most others, the ascending degree starts the first house and the midheaven degree starts the tenth house. The remaining houses are then trisected on a time arc basis rather than space. The problem is the houses distort or intercept in extreme latitudes.

It seems human nature always veers towards the more complex ideas or notions in any field, ignoring the truer and simpler ones. Originally, the words "houses" and "signs" were interchangeable or meant the same thing. A planet in Aries was also a planet in the house of Aries, so that in effect. there were no real houses as we know them today.

The artificial divisions we now know as houses were attempts by the early Greeks and the Hindus to measure strength "points" in the horoscope, which at some point in time(7th and 8th centuries AD) were construed or confused as means of dividing the birth chart. The ascendant and midheaven degrees and their opposites, for example, were definite power points or areas of intense focus, but not necessarily the beginnings of a house or quadrant.

In fact, there is no real basis for the astrological houses at all. They derive from a misunderstanding of the true nature of the Ascendant and Midheaven factors in astrology, the former representing the Earth or terrestial sphere, and the latter representing the Sky, Heaven, or celestial sphere. The Ascendant is planet Earth, and the Midheaven(MC) has as its source, the Earth's inner central sun. The IC(Imum Coeli) and the descendant are merely opposite or reflex points.

If any house system should be used at all, it should be the Whole Sign House system, where the ascendant sign becomes the whole first house and the others follow. The ascendant point can then fall anywhere in the first house and the midheaven point anywhere in the upper half of the chart. The Ascendant and Midheaven, in effect, become PLANETS, which is what they truly are, and because we live on planet Earth, it is the FIRST house or primary habitation. For a description of what the houses really mean, see here www.librarising.com/astrolog...ics2.html

The Whole Sign House system was used by the ancient Greeks and the Hindus(who still use it today). It is the oldest and simplest house system in existence, and immediateley eliminates the awful mess astrologers have made on the issue over the last 1300 years or so.

For a full explanation on whole sign houses see here.
classicalastrology.tribe.net/thr...761d

www.librarising.com/astrolog...uses.html
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    Re: Whole Sign House System

    Mon, September 21, 2009 - 7:29 AM
    After reading the article, I am starting to wonder if I should focus more on whole sign house system.

    in Placidus,Koch,and Equal House, I have the conjunction of 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter and 7th house ruler Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd house oppose retrograde 5th/6th house ruler Saturn in Gemini in 9th squaring the 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 6th house.

    with whole sign house system,
    the conjunction of 4th/7th house ruler Jupiter and 7th house ruler Neptune in Sagittarius in 4th house oppose retrograde 5th/6th house rueler Saturn in Gemini in 10th house squaring the 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 7th house.


    The whole sign house system t-square fits because I had confusion about my roots because of my multiracial ancestry,not knowing my father nor his family,not knowing my maternal grandmother nor her family. Problems with career and relationships too. The t-square with 4th house indicates my dysfunctional family background that includes mental illness and alcoholism/drug addiction on both my mother's side and my father's side.
    Retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th fit with the structure that I had in the navy, but also the depression connected to it. Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in opposition to it fits with the navy,living on a boat,and working and living on the water. The opposition squaring my Moon in Pisces in 7th fits with not only the depression/anxiety and my wanting to be free, but also my problems with relationships. I felt navy life interfered with relationships too. I felt like I couldn't have a stable relationship when I was in the navy. I wanted to get married and have children,and I felt the navy interfered with that.


    I thought the t-square in the Placidus,Koch,Equal house systems with the 3rd,9th,6th house indicate my problems with school,education and learning issues, but I think the indicators could be shown in the whole sign house system


    the conjunction of 1st/10th house ruler Mercury in Scorpio conjunct 2nd/9th house ruler Venus in Scorpio (detrimental Venus) in 3rd house square the 3rd/8th house ruler Mars in Aquarius in 6th.
    I also have 12th house ruler Sun in Scorpio in 3rd quincunx retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th. Those aforementioned configurations can indicate my history of problems when it comes to speech,learning,communication,education,and self esteem. I was lucky to get early intervention for my special education needs,and that even helped me be a good student too. That's the 12th house ruler Sun in Scorpio trine 11th house ruler Moon in Pisces in 7th. It could fit with being gifted in communication,intelligence. All the aforementioned stuff combined could fit with the "twice exceptional" which is a term that's been used for somebody that's both gifted but has an information processing difficulty.


    also adding Pluto's big fellow transneptunians seem to fill in blanks too
    My Ixion in Scorpio conjunct my Sun in 3rd house with only 5 minutes of arc and trine my Moon in Pisces in 7th with 2'15 orb, and that could indicate thought processes,communication,learning that's nonconformist,deep,and otherworldly. Evolutionary intensified lessons in those areas.
    My Makemake in Leo in 12th square my Mercury in Scorpio with 2'01 orb, and that also adds to the theme of the evolutionary intensified lessions, nonconformity,deep,and otherworldly when it comes to thought processes,communication,and learning. With the square, it can be a major issue.
    My Venus in Scorpio in 3rd trine Orcus in Cancer in 11th with 41 minutes of also can add to the aforementioned theme. All that might also fit with the twice exceptional theme.

    Neptune squaring my 3rd/8th house ruler Mars and sextile my 3rd house ruler Pluto in 2nd can easily account for me being able to relate to Neptune in 3rd which is about the imaginative,receptive,visualizing type of mind as well as confusion,distortion,misunderstandings when it comes to communications,learning.
    Of course, my Mercury parallels Neptune too as well as conjunct my Sun/Neptune midpoint.
    In regular astrology, I can just stop at the Neptune aspects to the co-rulers of my 3rd house,Mars and Pluto. My 12th house ruler (Sun) in 3rd house could also add to the theme.

    damn! This makes a lot of sense to me!

    I am strongly considering using whole sign house system now.

    Robert Hand uses it regularly too. It is the house system widely used by Vedic Astrologers.

    In my Vedic Chart
    I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in 3rd just like in my whole sign house chart

    I have Lunar Nodes in 6th/12th house like in my whole sign house chart

    I have Moon in 7th house like in my whole sign house chart

    I have Jupiter in 4th house like in my whole sign house chart

    I have retrograde Saturn in 10th like in my whole sign house chart.

    I could relate to the Vedic interpretations for the house placements.

    the lunar nodes are interpreted differently because they refer to them as Rahu and Ketu. They interpret them like outerplanets which they don't use in their system.
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      Re: Whole Sign House System

      Mon, September 21, 2009 - 1:25 PM
      Here's an article I ran across a while back that talks about the mathematics involved, if anyone's interested:
      www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen...urops.pdf

      "According to “Recent Advances in Natal Astrology”, compiled by Geoffrey Dean, about 80% of individuals who seek help from astrologers show a preference for the system of Placidus. Another 10% favour the equal house system, while the rest choose from the other house systems. In addition, 90% of individuals who refer to online horoscopes prefer the system of Placidus. Another 8% favour the Koch system, while 2% prefer the other house systems."

      I use Koch for natal, Regiomontanus for horary. I've changed from Placidus over time, and just use what I feel works for me.
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        Re: Whole Sign House System

        Mon, September 21, 2009 - 2:00 PM
        The whole sign house system puts Jupiter in my 2nd vs the 1st. That's laughable! I am so fearful of poverty and have been poverty-stricken so often that I certainly do not rely on luck in finances. If anything, Saturn may be in my 2nd vs. my 3rd, not because I have been brought up poor and always feel poor, but because of my chronic fear of poverty.

        I don't connect to this house system at all. This also makes people born within a few hrs of each other at the same location have the exact same chart. So why are twins so different?
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          Re: Whole Sign House System

          Mon, September 21, 2009 - 3:43 PM

          Twins are probably different with different midpoint pictures involving Midheaven and Ascendant.

          Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrology use midpoints regularly, and they focus on the Midheaven and Ascendant when when it comes to looking at events to rectify charts.

          They do house systems like we use them. Uranian is a different house system that is nothing like what we use.

          Cosmobiologists don't use any house system whatsoever.

          I also wonder how the 2nd house ruler is aspected and how your Jupiter in 2nd is aspected. 2nd house has to do with self worth and security too.
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            Re: Whole Sign House System

            Mon, September 21, 2009 - 4:34 PM
            I sincerely do not think Jupiter fits there, debilitated by aspect or not.

            House systems are not the only things that have changed since the origins of astrology, and if you truly want to go back to the old ways, more things would be involved than converting back to equal house systems.

            I also know that in using horary, the degree of the houses has relevance to the question sometimes (Sabian symbol degree, etc.). Timing is very important in horary, and whole sign houses takes away from that.

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              Re: Whole Sign House System

              Mon, September 21, 2009 - 4:35 PM
              correction: whole sign house systems, not equal...
              • b
                b
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                Re: Whole Sign House System

                Mon, September 21, 2009 - 6:41 PM
                Honestly the houses systems are one of the weakest points of astrology. I don't know how much I can put stock into which house system a person "connects" to. That could mean anything, not which is more accurate reflection of how a person relates to their environment. Placidus could be popular because it was used by popular astrologers, not because it is more correct. The article makes bold statements but I don't think it is under unfounded arguments.

                As for my chart, not much changes with the whole house system. Saturn is put in the 7th house (which makes a LOT of sense... it is conjunct the DC though from the 6th house Placidus so that could go either way). My moon is also moved to the 8th house and my sun the 2nd house. This actually makes a lot of sense. I always attributed the 2nd/8th house tension that I definitely feel to Scorpio/Taurus intercepted in the 6th/12th Placidus. But a Sun/Moon opposition in 2nd/8th really hits harder. Poverty vs. wealth and the repercussions of it have so far been strong themes in my life.

                I guess at the end of the day, people will go with whatever system "fits" them, instead of the other way around.
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                  Re: Whole Sign House System

                  Mon, September 21, 2009 - 7:26 PM

                  "I guess at the end of the day, people will go with whatever system "fits" them, instead of the other way around."

                  Exactly. It's very subjective.

                  That's one of the reasons that Cosmobiologist don't use houses.

                  The Placidus,Koch house systems don't even work for very high latitudes (66 degrees and higher)

                  I tried to calculate for those with Solar Fire, and they got calculated with Equal House instead.

                  people born with high latitudes can have some very lopsided house charts.

                  Take Ann Margret born in Sweden. She has some very lopsided houses.

                  The monk, Placidus that created the Placidus house system, didn't know about the Arctic and Antarctic regions either. Therefore, it made sense that he wasn't concerned about people born in very high latitude areas.

                  That's like Ptolemy that lived in the Northern Hemisphere and only considered the seasons that defined the tropical zodiac from his point of view in relation to his experiencing the North Hemisphere seasons. He didn't know about the Southern Hemisphere.

                  I definitely don't believe in using tropical zodiac for people born in the Southern Hemisphere.


                  I use the Placidus house system myself, but after reading how the house systems were based on errors and that the original house system was whole sign houses, I am starting to wonder. It's like how I start to wonder about Pluto's influence after learning about the other transneptunians that exist.


                  so many things in Astrology are highly questionable imho, and so it makes sense that many skeptics point out the contradictions in Astrology as one of the reasons that it's pseudo-science.
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                    Re: Whole Sign House System

                    Tue, September 22, 2009 - 2:18 PM
                    It seems that Chris Brennan's advocacy for whole sign houses has worked out well for him. He helped make whole sign houses possible at astro.com

                    Whole Sign Houses Now Available on Astro.com


                    Many of the younger and newer generations of astrologers that have recently entered into the field in the past decade or so are aware of the importance of Astrodienst (www.astro.com). For many people, such as myself, Astrodienst has played a pivotal role in facilitating the study of astrology through the many services that the company offers through their website. This includes stuff like offering informative articles, ephemerides, high quality delineations, and, perhaps most importantly, free chart calculation services. For people who are just getting into the study of horoscopic astrology, or even those who only have a passing interest, being able to get an accurate copy of your birth chart is an incredibly important step. Thanks to the guys at Astrodienst, the ability to do this is actually something that many of us take for granted at this point, since they have been offering free chart calculations to the public for well over a decade now. This simple service has actually had a profound effect on hundreds of astrologers, because there are many people whose study of astrology would not be possible, or which would be hindered significantly if not for the service that they offer.

                    Several years ago I joined the growing number of astrologers who have made the switch to using whole sign houses as our primary form of house division. Since I have already discussed the benefits and history behind this approach in previous articles I won’t go into it here. Needless to say, after making the switch and becoming an advocate of whole sign houses I was somewhat disappointed that astro.com didn’t offer this as an option for house division in its extended chart selection on their website. That is to say, you couldn’t get a normal copy of a chart from astro.com that displayed the positions using whole sign houses.

                    I brought the issue up with the guys at astro.com a couple of times over the past few years, and even pointed out that Rob Hand, whose delineations form the backbone of their personal daily horoscope transit delineations, is one of the major contemporary proponents of whole sign houses. Earlier this year I even contemplated starting a petition in order to try to show that there are indeed a growing number of astrologers who prefer this approach. This was to no avail though, until recently.

                    chrisbrennanlecture01The United Astrological Conference took place a couple of months ago in Denver in May, and due to a strange twist of events I ended up filling in for Robert Schmidt as a core presenter on the history track, giving two two lectures on Hellenistic astrology. During the first lecture on an intro to Hellenistic astrology I noticed one person in the audience who I sort of recognized, but I couldn’t quite figure out who it was. At one point after the lecture I was walking out of a coffee shop and I ran into the same guy again, and after noticing his name tag I immediately realized who he was. It was Alois Treindl, the founder and director of Astrodienst, and he was surrounded by a number of other important people from astro.com.
                    astrodienstteam01

                    Alois, Juri & Dieter

                    For me this was the equivalent of being in the presence of rock stars, and I had this very surreal moment of realizing that the guys who had been so pivotal in my own early studies of astrology had attended my lecture at UAC. As we talked Alois said that I had finally convinced them to integrate whole sign houses into astro.com, and they had been discussing the technical details of how to do it after sitting in on my first lecture. I was ecstatic, in a very geeky sort of way. This was definitely one of the main high points of the conference for me because it was something that I had been hoping that they would do for several years, and I was pleased to have been able to present a compelling enough case to them in person in order to make it happen.

                    Recently I noticed that they have indeed integrated whole sign houses into the extended chart selection on astro.com, and I am pleased to announce that whole sign houses are now an official option on astro.com! hoorayforwholesignhouses02Hellenistic, Medieval and Indian astrologers around the world are dancing in the streets, no longer oppressed by the tyranny of Placidus houses. Please join me in thanking the Astrodienst team!
                    horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2008...n-ast rocom/


                    I really like his points on whole sign houses. They really make sense. All house systems besides the whole sign houses were based on errors. The whole sign house system is the original house system. The zodiac signs and houses were meant to strongly correspond with each other. Therefore, interpreting i.e. Mars in Scorpio and Mars in 8th house as the same is valid. Whole sign aspects were used by Ptolemy just like they are used in Hellenic and Vedic Astrological systems. The discovery of the outer planets and Pluto made the use of whole sign aspects more complicated. It's no wonder that those systems don't use the outerplanets.


                    I like to do Astrology based on logic,common sense,and facts. Of course, I adapt my Astrology to the discoveries of Astronomy. That includes not only the use of centaurs,transneptunians,and asteroids, but also the use of Right Ascension and Declination. Many other astrologers have done it any way. The ancient astrologers didn't use Uranus,Neptune,nor Pluto because they weren't discovered yet. Those objects are regularly used in mainstream Astrology. Therefore, it's highly obvious that astrologers have adapted to astronomical discoveries. Astronomically oriented astrologers like Philip Sedgwick even go beyond mainstream astrology and work with Heliocentric Astrological system,galactic Astrology(black holes,qusars,pulsars,x-rays)

                    Now going back to the past, I am considering using the whole sign house system. Why use other house systems that are based on errors? I use house systems like Placidus and Koch that are useless for locations with very high latitudes and even make the houses of slighltly lower latitudes than that look lopsided like in the case of Ann-Margret who was born in Sweden. I believe that house systems need to be consistent. Cosmobiology founder, Reinhold Ebertin didn't deal with that mess. His system doesn't use a house system. The Cosmobiologists seem to think that their system works very fine without them. I guess the use of midpoint pictures take the place of houses. There are mainstream astrologers that use midpoints in correlation with mainstream Astrology. Mixing two systems together. The problems there is a lack of inconsistency in Astrology to begin with. The evidence is the many disagreements in Astrology about what to use and how to use it. No wonder Astrology isn't recognized by Science.
                    It only seems that non-zodiac astrological studies seem to show any validity including especially the work of Michel Gauquelin. Dr.
                    Theodor Landscheidt devised golden section aspects in Astrology,and he used them in his climatology work. The works of these guys didn't involve the zodiac signs and houses. Johannes Kepler didn't believe in the zodiac signs nor houses, and he opened up a can of worms by devising minor aspects which were based on musical harmonics.

                    Honestly, I am not sure if zodiac signs are even valid. We have Sidereal Zodiac. There are some belief that Sidereal Zodiac was the original Zodiac. The Sidereal Zodiac and the Tropical Zodiac said to be aligned, and through precession, they drift apart. Ptolemy adopted the Tropical Zodiac, saying it involve the seasons. However, those were the northern hemisphere seasons. He didn't know about the southern hemisphere, and so the northern hemisphere seasons didn't apply to people born in southern hemisphere. That's how I view the monk,Placidus. He created the Placidus system, and he devised it without knowing about the Arctic and Antarctic regions that have the most extreme latitudes. As for why Koch devised a system that didn't account for those regions, all I can do is shake my head.

                    I believe that if a house system is created,it should be able to apply to every location. The same thing with the zodiac.


                    The original zodiac had more than 12 signs too. The Babylonians had more more than 12 signs in their system before. They had 18.


                    I wonder why not create a house system based on the 13 zodiac constellations on the ecliptic, but what about Pluto that moves 17 degrees away from the ecliptic and so enters other constellations? Even Mercury also can enter other constellations that are not on the ecliptic. Many centaurs,asteroids,and transneptunians do too.


                    The Placidus house system was created before the outerplanets were discovered too.

                    Koch house system was created before the highly eccentric orbiting Chiron was discovered. Chiron's fellow centaurs weren't discovered then. Pluto's fellow centaurs weren't discovered then. At the time the Koch system was created, Pluto's moon,Charon wasn't even discovered. That means that Pluto was still thought to be as large as our Earth at the time. Yes..Pluto was once thought to be as big as our planet. It was the discovery of Charon that made it possible for astronomers to discover Pluto's actual size and mass.

                    The only reason why Pluto was discovered was because it was on the ecliptic at the time. It tends to orbit well off the ecliptic.

                    the astrologers that created these house systems didn't take into account the highly elliptical orbits of certain objects like Pluto.
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                      Re: Whole Sign House System

                      Tue, September 22, 2009 - 2:25 PM

                      Placidus

                      This is the most commonly used house system in modern Western astrology. The Placidus system is based on a division of time rather than space. The times taken for each degree of the ecliptic to rise from the nadir to the ascendant, and from the ascendant to the midheaven, are trisected to determine the cusps of houses 2, 3, 11, and 12. The cusps of houses 8, 9, 5 and 6 are opposite these. The Placidus system is sometimes not defined beyond polar circles (latitudes greater than 66°N or 66°S), because certain degrees are circumpolar (never touch the horizon), and planets falling in them cannot be assigned to houses without extending the system. This is the main weakness of the Placidean system according to its critics, which often cite the exceptional house proportions in the higher latitudes.[5]

                      It is thought the Placidus system was first mentioned about 13th century in Arab literature, but the first confirmed publication was in 1602 by Giovanni Antonii Magini (1555-1617) in his book "Tabulae Primi Mobilis, quas Directionem Vulgo Dicunt". Later it was popularized by Catholic Church as an argument for Ptolemy's geocentric theory of the Solar System, in the campaign against the heliocentric theory. Placidus, a professor of mathematics, was named as its author to give it credibility to his contemporaries. Placidus remains the most popular system among English-speaking astrologers
                      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hous...trology%29


                      Placidus

                      Placidus is the system which is most often used by astrologers. That does not necessarily mean that it is the best (astrologers, apart from rare exceptions, do not have much understanding of the mathematical realities behind the figures they handle daily). Placidus is certainly a system that makes sense, and it is devoid of some aberrations found in some other systems. But it should always be kept in mind that if it is omnipresent, it could be more due to habit than to its intrinsic value.

                      The Placidus system is based on time. The cusps (limits between houses) are determined so that it takes the same time for a planet to move through each house above the Ascendant (on the day side of the chart). And each house below the Ascendant (on the night side) is crossed within a fixed duration too, but this time is not equal to that needed to move through the houses above the Ascendant.

                      The Placidus system, in relation to its time-based definition, fitted well with primary directions, a prediction tool based on relatively heavy mathematical calculations. Astrologers, however, have long given up primary directions, but they have retained Placidus!

                      A major weakness of Placidus is that it does not work for high latitudes. Past 66° (North or South), it becomes completely meaningless; the formulae can no longer be applied. Campanus does not have this limitation. (Try to enter a chart with 70 degrees of latitude North or South while Placidus is selected as the default house system, and see what happens.)
                      astrology.clairvision.org/stati...n.html


                      Koch

                      A rather more complicated version of the Placidus system, built on equal increments of Right Ascension for each quadrant. The Koch system was developed by the German astrologer Walter Koch (1895-1970) and is defined only for latitudes between 66°N and 66°S. This system is popular among research astrologers in the U.S. and among German speakers, but in Central Europe lost some popularity to the Krusiński house system. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hous...trology%29


                      Koch

                      Originated by Walter Koch in the nineteen-sixties, the Koch house system is probably the modern system which has gained the most momentum – not rising enough to rival Placidus in any way, but certainly gaining more acceptance than other new systems.

                      The principle is similar to Placidus (trisection of semiarcs), and the limitations are similar – it can't be applied to high latitude areas.

                      The mathematical principles behind it are far from being magnificent, and only the future will tell if Koch is one of many fads or if it will stay. However, as discussed before, these things often have more to do with personal influence and marketing skills than with the soundness of the formulae involved. astrology.clairvision.org/stati...n.html

                      Here is a chart done with Koch system for Arctic Bay,Canada which is located at 72 degrees North Latitude,and so located higher than 66 degrees Latitude,and so out of the Koch house system's range.

                      i134.photobucket.com/albums/...hart.gif


                      As you see, it automatically calculates an Equal House chart. Solar Fire can't calculate a Koch house system chart higher than 66 degrees Latitude.


                      the same with Placidus

                      i134.photobucket.com/albums/...hart.gif
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    Re: Whole Sign House System

    Thu, October 15, 2009 - 8:17 PM
    Sidereal, Tropical, Geocentric, Heliocentric, Draconic???
    • Re: Whole Sign House System

      Mon, February 8, 2010 - 1:20 AM
      Something I feel fits me a lot better by whole sign is Mercury and Venus, and North Node in the 7th, instead of the 6th. I'm not so sure about Moon-Mars-Jupiter in the 10th, instead of the 9th...except the Moon there, maybe, which shows indicisiveness linked to choosing a career, and feeling like you have to meet a lot of expectations.

      Also, Uranus and Neptune in my 5th, instead of my 4th sounds a lot more like me. I'm not 100% sure about Saturn in the 5th over the 4th, though. Both Saturn in the 5th and the 4th sound a bit like me. Except that I'm not a workaholic carrer-obsessed early-achiever like Saturn in the 4th would suggest..I take it Madonna has this placement, as well. Didn't check to see if it stays in the 4th by whole sign, though.

      I read once that if you wanna use tropical, it's best to use placidus, and if you use sidereal, you gotta use whole sign..but I think it's mainly because most people use it like that, so it's easier to learn how to interpret your chart if you focus on these particular combinations.
      And my planets in Sidereal by whole sign make a lot of sense to me. Though, so do my tropical by whole sign..so, like I've said before, I'm confused. lol
      • Re: Whole Sign House System

        Tue, June 8, 2010 - 6:58 AM
        I had great hopes to defeat my mars and saturn to another house - 11th or first- it did not happen in this system too! :)

        I think astrology needs to be something more than psychological bubbles and remember and make use of its heritage from Greeks, Arabs, Romans..
        • Re: Whole Sign House System

          Tue, June 8, 2010 - 8:36 AM
          seriously..we don't need houses at all. all we need is aspects. and love, to quote Yoda.lol
          • Re: Whole Sign House System

            Tue, June 8, 2010 - 8:38 AM
            "all we need is aspects"

            We don't need signs either! Buh-bye to the sidereal/tropical debate!
            • Re: Whole Sign House System

              Tue, June 8, 2010 - 9:33 AM
              tell me about it. I was just looking at these bits on Moon-Mars and Moon-Jupiter aspects from a Liz Greene book. books.google.ro/books

              page 65.

              It totally explains so much of my issues-not just my relationship with my mother, but my emotional states-going back and forth from depression to mania and so on.

              Moon conjunct both Mars and Jupiter not only emphasizes emotions, through Jupiter's expansiveness, but especially emphasizes negative emotions through Mars' violent nature. On top of it all, they're squared by mercury...oh and the bit she says about Moon-Mercury hard aspects sounds true to me, as well..that me and my mother just have totally different personalities and the fact that I had trouble making myself understood by her left me with an early sense of awkwardness in communication and insecurity not about my intelligence, like she says(since my Mercury squares not only the Moon but also Jupiter and Mars), but about the relevance or importance of my ideas.
              I still get that sense before I'm about to say something, express my opinion..that I just noticed something interesting, but redundant and of no use to anybody.
              • Re: Whole Sign House System

                Wed, May 11, 2011 - 10:04 AM
                hello, folks. Just a humble suggestion..if you are having trouble with choosing a house system, you might try looking at house rulers and the houses they fall in.
                For instance, say you have Libra Rising, and in Placidus, your Venus falls in the 5th, but in Whole Sign, it falls in the 6th..which one fits better?
                Also, when thinking of a house think of ALL that house relates to, not just a few things that you might have focused on so far.

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