How to tell manic depression/ bipolar tendencies from one's natal chart?

topic posted Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:08 AM by  Lady Saber
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Please help, would very much like to help some otherwise very good people.

Thank you.
posted by:
Lady Saber
Singapore
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  • Unsu...
     
    I think it's impossible to tell by one's chart, just like the homosexuality issue.

    I have had long problems with depression, though I've never been diagnosed as bipolar.

    Actually, I never went to see a doctor.lol

    I used to think depression and any other emotionally-based mental illnesses would strike those with a lot of water or earth in their charts, but I've known two men who were bipolar, and had nothing in common chart-wise, and had little or no water and earth in their charts.

    One was manic-depressive and the other had a very severe type of bipolar. Attempts of suicide, violent outbursts and all that.

    The latter died a year ago, and although the official version was that he had a heart attack, I can bet he killed himself. His mother was a nurse and a Christian, so she probably used her connections to change the death certificate, since suicides can't get a Christian burial here. He was a Leo Sun and Aries Moon, and incredibly bright.

    Played the piano and guitar like a god, had successful photography exhibitions all around, won countless national informatics competitions in high school. Had an IQ of 174, but was constantly unhappy somehow.
    Was at his third wife at 32-been married for almost a year when he died.

    The other I don't know so well, but I know he had constant problems with depression, and is a Sag Sun and Aries Moon.

    Then there's Vivien Leigh who was also bipolar, and she had a Scorpio Sun opposite Taurus Ascendant, and an Aquarius Moon.

    I think that there might be some relation between mental illness and the number of squares and oppositions in one's chart.
    • I can't remember where, but I've read that manic-depression can be indicated by something to do with Libra (scales always up and down) and a lack of an element in the chart. Either lack of Earth or lack of Fire or something.

      Anyone else heard anything like that?
      • Unsu...
         
        If that's the case, then maybe gemini...one twin being the happy one, the other...well.... I have a feeling that one should consider where neptune is...maybe neptue moon aspects, or neptune mercury. It doesn't matter whether there is water in the chart or not
        • yeah could be true of gemini two twins, or pisces two fishes in opposite directions.

          Most geminis i know however (including myself) do not display manic depression. but obviously in theory in kind of makes sense.
          I know some librans who definitely do seem bipolar though, and a few pisceans as well.

          I'm sure too many of the same element or no of one element is something to do with mental unease and in particular narcissism (too much fire) and bipolar ( too little fire) i can't remember if tha's true or if my memory has confused it a bit.
      • Unsu...
         
        Elements have little to do with it.


        Though I guess lack of fire makes sense. I have that, and I must say I have a tendency to over-think myself. Fire is strong instincts and desires and those are needed for the animal part of u to function well.

        I have a Moon-Mars-Jupiter stellium in 0 degree Gemini, and the rest of my planets are in Pisces. My Rising is Virgo, opposite Sun and Venus.

        The water helps tone down by its instinctual influence, but its influence is a lot more subtle than fire would be. The mind still rules.

        The problem with people that have a lot of air and earth in their charts, and little or no fire and water is over-working the mind and either end up short-circuiting, or manage to keep it together but take the thinking so far that will start sounding crazy to those around them because of the "weird conclusions" they reach.

        On the other hand, someone with a majority of fire and/or water influences will lose it because of the powerful inner conflicts that arise when strong opposing drives meet.
        A predominance of fire might leave to becoming a bit too passionate for one's good.

        A predominance of water will be too emotional for one's good.

        One example that keeps coming to my mind is Kurt Cobain-Sun, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn in Pisces, Moon and Jupiter in Cancer, Mars in Scorpio.
        The Virgo Rising wasn't enough to soak up all that water, and he drowned in his own depths, eventually.
        He practically had all his personal planets in water signs.

        The same with Falco-a singer that was also rumored to have committed suicide- Sun in 0 degree Pisces, Scorpio Moon, Cancer Rising.


        • Unsu...
           
          * might lead to becoming
          • Unsu...
             
            Kurt Cobain, wow, that's alot of water swimming around in those beautiful Piscean eyes.
            • Unsu...
               
              Too much water in his chart, probably felt as if no one understood him...Kurt Cobain

              • I feel that it's hard to differentiate the chart of a person with a psychiatric disorder from the chart of a person with a neurodivergent condition (Autism,Aspergers,ADHD,Dyspraxia,Dyslexia,and other learning disorders)

                Even the symptoms overlap......there is significant comorbidity too.

                • BTW.....I am example

                  I am Dyslexic,Dyspraxic,ADHD, and I was misdiagnosed as schizoaffective bipolar disorder by psychiatrists because of my cluttering speech which they thought was schizoaffective manic type speech because it was rapid,tangental,rambling. They never did any psychological nor considered medical testing. They never even asked if I had speech therapy nor was in special education. I had speech therapy in special education.

                  I also have a strong history of anxiety,depressive disorders..........I am diagnosed as having Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Dysthymic Disorder years after I was misdiagnosed as having schizoaffective bipolar disorder.

                  also Veteran Affairs neurologists told me that I wasn't schizophrenic nor bipolar. They confirmed my Dyslexia and Dyspraxia.


                  I have Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in Gemini in Gemini-retrograde Varuna in Gemini in 9th and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd.


                  please keep in mind that Neptune also rules misdiagnoses and oversensitivity to medications

                  so people with hard Neptune aspects can be misdiagnosed and/or be oversensitive to medications just like I was misdiagnosed and am oversensitive to medications that SSRI's made me temporarily impotent. Even Effexor which isn't an SSRI made me impotent up to 2 weeks after I stopped taking it.


                  so its hard to differentiate the chart of a neurodivergent person from a person from a person who has schizophrenia and/or bipolar.


                  also...if you read the book, THE BIPOLAR CHILD. Learning disabilities is listed as one of the common symptoms and traits in Bipolar children. Oversensitivity to environmental influences are listed as one of the very common symptoms and traits in bipolar children. Many neurodivergents are oversensitive. I definitely am. Also Aspergers Syndrome. was listed as one of the conditions that can be misdiagnosed as Bipolar too.

                  also the traits of Autism and Schizophrenia has some overlap.........that;'s why they used to think Autism was a form of schizophrenia
                  now antipsychotics are approved to treat autism......Risperdal is an atypical antipsychotic approved to treat autism.

                  As a neurodivergent person,I am very concerned. That's why I am a neurodivergent,neurodiversity mental health activist.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Raymond,

                    The Pisces Moon is definitely a very good example of speech-related disorders.

                    The Moon is said to govern not only our first connections to the notions of "home", "mother", "safety", but also shows how we will develop in the early years of our lives.
                    And from the perspective of Medical Astrology, a Pisces Moon would definitely show the slow learning of speech, slow in expressing urself.

                    Especially if Mercury is also badly aspected in ur chart, and/or is in a water sign.

                    I remember reading that kids with Gemini Moons will learn how to speak very quickly and will be quite fast in expressing themselves, and that was definitely true for me.

                    Despite having a Pisces Mercury, tightly squared by Moon-Mars-Jupiter in 0 degree Gemini, I said my first sentence at 5 months of age, and was already talking fluently by the time I was 9 months old.(bragging-lol)

                    But seriously, it's true. Gemini Moons are big talkers. Especially the women.."giggles"

                    • I disagree

                      it's not reflected by just the Moon in Pisces

                      It's the t-square

                      Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in Gemini(communications,dexterity) and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd(communications,dexterity)

                      I also have Saturn contraparallel Mercury-Venus-Neptune parallel in the declinations

                      both configurations reflect my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD.

                      Dyslexia = Developmental Language Disorder, Dyspraxia = Develomental Coordination Disorder

                      That's why I had auditory therapy,speech therapy,phonics,and fine motor skills therapy to remediate my Dyslexia, Dyspraxia. I was in special education because of those conditions. I was mainly an auditory Dyslexic. I used to have auditory reversals that led to speech reversals, and so I was taught to hear things differently. I also had problems with word retrieval like many Dyslexics. Dyspraxia affected my coordination that I am very clumsy. Dyspraxia affected the coordination of my speech like moving my mouth,lips tongue,and use of vocal cords. Both Dyslexia,Dyspraxia led me to have cluttering speech.

                      Like Dyslexics,I think mainly in pictures,strong 3D visualization abilities,lateral/global type thinkers,vivid imagination. Dyslexics,Dyspraxics think outside the box....both deal with nonlinear thinking
                      my blog talks about strengths of Dyslexia.


              • Yeah i'm sure he did. The only thing is, he was aware of it :

                "She eyes me like a Pisces when I am weak" - lyric from Heart Shaped Box, which always interested me.

                Must have been very hard for him.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  Paul

                  that's like a Delphi Oracle answer-it can be interpreted in 2 ways

                  It could mean "she calls me a Pisces when I'm weak" or "she sees my weakness, like a Pisces would"

                  Falco was even more manic-depressive than Cobain.

                  Unfortunately, I can't find his chart anymore. But sun and Moon in water, plus a sensitive water Rising to make sure every "hit" from the outside will be directed exactly where it hurts the most, was enough to make him very vulnerable.

                  He had love troubles all his life, and if I remember well, there were rumors about his death being a suicide because he crashed his car into a bus coming from the opposite direction, and there was no alcohol in his body at the time of death, according to the autopsy.

                  His "Out of the Dark(...into the light)" song is one of my all-time favorites. It came out on his last album, in 1998, and although most of the lyrics are in German, the feeling of hopelessness is obvious in the song.
                  One of the lines in the song goes "Must I die, then, in order to live?". In fact most of the lyrics speak of death and everlasting love.

                  here's a video of the song, for anyone who's curious- youtube.com/watch
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    My dad is Bi-Polar, Post-traumatic..... Schizo path
                    He has nothing in Water, but his Venus and Ascendant is in Scorpio.
                    A BEAUTIFUL Earth grand trine.... even in the Earth houses.


                    Though... A LOT of Mutable energy...... Same with another Sagittarius I know.... Hardly nothing in Water.
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      i36.photobucket.com/albums/e...chart.gif

                      Here is a copy of my fathers chart.... The man has been in college since he was 21 years old....And I have visited him a couple times in arts and crafts!

                      War vet... Has killed humans.... May that be a factor also.

                      He has to take other drugs.... To stop the poisoning of his Bi-Polar pills.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        well

                        It appears a heavily-aspected Neptune definitely creates the proper environment for craziness. Allan, ur dad has a stressed Neptune, as well. It only makes 2 squares-one to Mars, and one to Jupiter.

                        I always thought I was cursed by Netune's demons, but now I realized it's not as half as bad as it could've been.

                        My Neptune has had a pretty smooth sail through my chart-all it makes is a conjunction to Saturn and Uranus, and a sextile to Venus. Oh, and loose 8 degree orb trine to my Ascendant.
                        • Unsu...
                           
                          No doubts ;)

                          My Neptune aspects over half me chart....

                          it is....
                          Opposed Sun, Mars, Ceres
                          Trine Moon, Lilith
                          Sextile Pluto
                          Semi-square Jupiter
                          Sesquiquadrate Venus, North Node

                          Makes two trapezoids

                          I say it is like having front row seats to the circus.

                          • I am very Neptunian too:
                            Moon in Pisces
                            Neptune aspects:
                            conjunct Jupiter
                            oppose Saturn-Pallas-Varuna
                            square Moon-Mars
                            parallel Mercury-Venus
                            contraparallel Neptune

                            South Neptune Node
                            conjunct/oppose Lunar Nodes
                            trine Midheaven

                            North Neptune Node
                            conjunct Ceres
                            semisextile Ascendant

                            Moon is also in alignment with Fomalhaut, alpha star of Piscis Australis (Ebertin said that stars are like Venus-Mercury-Neptune)
                            • Unsu...
                               
                              I really dig the Node of the planet idea.... What got you interested in it?

                              • Evolutionary Astrology

                                Jeffrey Wolf Green is into the geocentric planetary nodes for evolutionary astrology insights....like south nodes of planets have to do with karmic pastlives. He says that the nodes of Jupiter and the planets beyond have to do with collective karma. He's writing a book on them
                                I purchased/watched his DVD on planetary nodes.
                                astrologybykimmarie.com/Mercha...ant.mvc

                                MEASURING THE NIGHT:
                                Evolutionary Astrology and the Keys to the Soul, Volume I
                                by Steven Forrest and Jeffrey Wolf Green
                                Chapter Seven: Jeffrey Wolf Green: The Planetary Nodes
                                www.stevenforrest.com/MTN.html


                                my most prominent planetary nodes are Eris and Uranus.....My Sun conjunct South Eris Node in Scorpio in 2nd/oppose North Eris Node in Taurus in 8th with 9 and 10 minutes of arc respectively and my South Uranus Node is in Sagittarius in 4th oppose my Midheaven with 54 minutes of arc.
                                • Unsu...
                                   
                                  theastrologer.com/astrology/

                                  There is alot of articles written by different astrologers over here.... Steven Forrest talks on it.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Fate and Freedom by Steven Forrest

                                    Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:38 PM

                                    FATE AND FREEDOM: A MIDDLE PATH,

                                    A FOOL’S JAMBOREE

                                    Free Will? Fate? As an astrologer, you’re currently under pressure to choose your weapons. Which side are you on?

                                    Analogies: Are you a tax and spend Liberal or a stodgy old Conservative? Pick ONE. Do you absolutely LOVE mayonnaise or do you wake up at four in the morning passionately HATING it? Silly questions, huh?

                                    The endless “fate versus free will” debate is equally foolish, and therefore fills foolish people with great enthusiasm. Both principles have validity; both are relevant to what actually happens in our lives.

                                    FATE’S TRUE

                                    We all get old, or die first. Start out short, wind up taller. Generally get rounder, wiser, blinder, deafer. Wind up dead. It’s all predictable. Astrology can add details Mercury conjunct your midheaven? Fate will draw you to some kind of work or social role in which communication and data exchange are central. A brilliant novelist? Telephone sales? The town gossip? Any of the above. You choose, with your sweat, determination, and willpower. Ask any novelist. Which tells us…

                                    FREEDOM’S TRUE
                                    Within the strictures of Fate, we make choices. Back in the New Age, there was the notion that “we create reality with our thoughts.” While it was a useful principle in many ways, silly extremes clung to it like papparazzi to a fallen from grace movie idol. In my books and lectures, I always felt like such a curmudgeon pointing out that no amount of creative visualization was going to turn the majority of us into Centers for the Chicago Bulls or supermodels. But we do make choices, and our choices have marked power in shaping our lives. We all periodically, and at astrologically predictable times, face existential crossroads. There, actively or passively, we select a path that forever defines and delimits our biographies. Shall I marry this person? Shall I move to Wyoming? Shall I go back to school?

                                    BUT THE ANSWER IS ALREADY THERE IN THE CHART…

                                    So say the radical determinists, whose voices and philosophies run through much of the ancient astrology that is currently being recovered. Manilius, an astrologer from the first century A.D., wrote, “The fates rule the world and all things are established by settled law.” And later: “No one can renounce what he is given, or possess what he is not given, nor can he grasp by his prayers the fortunes denied him or escape that which presses on him: each must bear his own lot.”

                                    This is the quintessential Stoic philosophy which pervaded the intellectual atmosphere during a large chunk of the classical period. Is it wrong? Certainly it’s demonstrable that an appalling amount of detail about our lives is actually there in the birthchart. Furthermore, our capacity to resolve and articulate that detail is being rapidly extended by the work that the current Neo classical astrologers are doing…and bless them all, from my friend Rob Hand on down the line. Rob says, “Never confuse free will with bad technique.” It’s a good point and well made, but like most one liners it’s high in emotional octane. We need to avoid lighting the match of “taking sides” anywhere near it, or we’re back to the Fool’s Jamboree: silly, dead end “fate versus free will” debates that smack of philosophical arguments in junior high school or fourteenth century scholastic theology.

                                    The real truth, I think, lies at the interstice of the two perspectives, at that ever shifting, liminal point of paradox: freedom weaves through fate like blood vessels weave among your bones.

                                    SO WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON?

                                    Easy. My clients’. Anyone who’s really gotten the elemental message of astrology is a great respecter of human individuality. We’re a delightfully varied bunch of creatures, each with our own talents, psychospiritual predicaments, and weird failures. I’m no exception. I’m reasonably bright and I read widely, but by modern standards I’m not particularly educated or educable in the formal sense. My skills lie more in the human, creative, and intuitive realms, and I sense now very clearly that it was my Fate (although I prefer to use the word “Destiny”) to become a counseling astrologer. My interest right from the beginning has been the way astrological medicine collides with the consciousness of bright, openminded, astrologically naive people. The format of my explorations has always been the same: an astrological chart, a couple of chairs, and two hours or so. That’s been my blank canvas, and I’ve painted it I guess fifteen thousand times by now. The requirements of that daily format have inclined me toward the punch that comes from simplicity, the grasping of essentials, and clarity of presentation. It’s not that tiny gee whiz astrological details bore me; it’s that they’re not very useful when I have two hours with a client. And I’m client driven, not theory driven.

                                    FATE VERSUS DESTINY

                                    In the dictionary the two words are not far apart in meaning, but they certainly carry a different emotional resonance. Destiny sounds much more inspiring. The distinctions run deeper than verbal legerdemain such as calling old age the “golden years” or interpreting errors of astrological judgment as evidence of a client’s “free will,” for that matter. Fate and Destiny are different animals, I think. Destiny is higher; it has more to do with one’s potential, or dharma, or divine plan put your money in whichever plate appeals. Destiny is something for which we must strive; Fate is what happens to us if we don’t. Both are visible in the birthchart. My task with a client has always been to distinguish the two, to warn of Fate’s slippery slope, and to encourage the realization of Destiny. Clearly, such an approach is empty if I do not honor the client’s capacity to choose and correspondingly tremble at his or her capacity for lassitude, displaced rage, despair, and so on: the drearily familiar list of demons with whom humanity has been doing battle since the beginning.

                                    SHOOTING OURSELVES IN THE FOOT

                                    …is something at which we astrologers have excelled for many years. And of course our disenchanted, technocratic society is always eager to offer us the bullets. One local, blow dried TV personality to another: “It’s New Year’s. Let find some ditzy astrologer to make some goofy predictions.” I pray we don’t pull the trigger this time. The stakes are too high.

                                    WHAT I THINK IS GOING ON

                                    …is that the old paradigms have already collapsed (ref: the Uranus Neptune conjunction of ‘91 ‘96). A lot of people have done some deep, painful healing (Pluto in Scorpio, ‘83 ‘95) and they are ready for fresh perspectives and possibilities (Pluto in Sagittarius, ‘96 ‘08), if those new notions feel right to them. And one appetite runs through their tastes as predictably as the menu of a theme restaurant: freedom. That’s Pluto in Sagittarius again, aided and abetted by Uranus and Neptune in Aquarius. An astrology that informs, enhances, and amplifies human freedom, while soberly warning it of the snares along the path, is in harmony with the current zeitgeist, while an astrology that simply and deadeningly specifies one’s nature and circumstances in advance is out of kilter with the times. True or false, it will be ignored, as surely as you’re already seeing less black and more bright colors out there in the fashion malls. How can it be otherwise with Pluto, Uranus, and Neptune in such notoriously freedom loving Signs?

                                    IT’S NOT JUST A PUBLIC RELATIONS PROBLEM EITHER

                                    …although it’s certainly that too. The neo classical astrologers are mostly correct in saying that from a technical perspective nineteenth century Western astrology compared unfavorably with the approaches of the Greeks and Romans, not to mention the ongoing Vedic traditions. But I want to observe that something quite extraordinary has happened in Western astrology during the last six or seven decades. We have experienced a Renaissance, and like most renaissances it’s been really hard to grok it from inside the process. Here’s what we’ve accomplished: We’ve fused a stripped down, streamlined, tested essentials only astrology with the metaphysics of perennial philosophy, the grounded wisdom of analytic psychology, and the practical helping strategies of humanistic psychotherapy. We’ve added an arsenal of formidable new interpretive dimensions and techniques: asteroids, midpoints, harmonics, astro mapping, composite charts, not to mention the planet Pluto. We’ve jumped it all to lightspeed with modern computers. Most importantly, we’ve thrown off the dead end shackles of Stoicism’s radical fatalism. We’ve recognized that Freedom is the life blood that runs through Fate, animating it, making us more than Newtonian billiard balls caroming off each other into the corner pocket. And we’ve got a literature, a set of organizations, and an army of practitioners to prove it.

                                    COSMICALLY, WHY?

                                    The answer is that so we astrologers would be ready for this Aquarian/Sagittarian moment in human history, I think. Humanity is ready for us and we’re ready for humanity. I don’t mean to sound breathless here, but why did so many astrologers incarnate in the middle of this century? To be ready for this seven year gateway we’re entering.

                                    SO WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON, PART TWO?

                                    Astrology’s. It is absolutely imperative now that we avoid an idiotic, internecine squabble between “modern astrologers” and “neo classicists.” For one thing, it would draw too much attention away from other, unspoken issues, such as where are the twenty somethings at our conferences? Where is the next generation of astrologers? And how, in this age of the World Wide Web, are we going to make the media push that is probably essential for the widespread acceptance of astrology? For another thing, the big world out there would yawn at our debate, if it noticed anything at all. And, in our foolishly misused freedom, a unique opportunity would have been squandered.

                                    I’ve proudly supported Project Hindsight from the beginning. I don’t know much about Vedic astrology, but I welcome it too. Modern Western astrology is no museum piece to be preserved from “corrupting influences,” any more than is classical astrology. Let’s put them all in the pot and start stirring. In Darwinian fashion, some techniques and perspectives will prove their utility, others will fall away…or, more likely, disappear into those obscure environmental niches we call Special Interest Groups. Please forgive me, Rob Hand and all you folks burning the midnight oil over ancient texts, but my prediction is that neo classical astrology, and all its wonderful lost tricks of the trade, will be absorbed into the emerging edifice of modern astrology, rather than the other way around. Perhaps at some long awaited United Astrology Congress in a future incarnation, held in the spacious quarters of the world renowned Kepler Colleger of Astrology in Seattle, we’ll know the answer although my guess is that, even with the astrology of a hundred years from now staring us in the face, a neo classicist and I would still disagree about what had actually transpired. That astrology won’t be “modern.” It won’t be “neo classical.” It’ll be better than both, and claim both for its funky ancestors.

                                    There’s one point, however, about which I’m personally sure: in the quantum astrology of the twenty first century, a delightful degree of unpredictability will be assumed as the birthright of each individual man and woman, just as we now recognize it to be the birthright of every subatomic particle. The price of exercising that unpredictability will be the same as it has always been: an openness to pumping energy into the mind body spirit system. And the joyous result: a leap to that not so far away level of consciousness where each individual’s future snaps into startling multidimensionality.
    • FJ
      FJ
      offline 7
      Very wierd...
      I was just about to start a topic related to this.
      You know, I might blame the nodes (or the person for how they USE their nodes) for many cases of bi-polar behavior.

      Now, when I say bi-polar I man a person who one way for maybe several hours, days, or weeks...and then they suddenly pull a switcheroo and show the extreme oppsotie behavior and almost forget how they were thinking before....almostlike different person.

      I can describe TWO such cases.
      One is a good friend of mine who actually has a condition called Schizo-effective Disorder. He gets crazy-enthusiatic and outgoing, sometimes for a week or two. He forgets all common sense and practicailty and makes excuses to go on sensual binges: Food, fireworks, drinking, travelling, splurging on whatever turns him on with total abandon. And then he swings the other way for days or weeks and is pessimistic, conservative, stingy, subdued and shy. This guy has a bunch of planets conjunct his South Node. I think this means a person who focuses so much one end of the Nodes that he eventually explodes out the other side as his energy spills through the other Node in a crazy Karmic balancing-act. After this is satisfied with the Universe, he falls back into his South Node repression. I think in his case the his over nit-picky and conservative South Node (disposited directly into Mercury in Virgo as final dispositor) gives way a need to splurge in things which inspire him (Pisces North Node) - His Jupiter and Neptune (Pisces rulers) are in Scorpio...thus, this intense need to overdo all the intoxicating sensual stuff as an escape from the prison of his need to dissect the meaning of everthing.

      In another case, I know a woman who has Pluto and the Moon flanking her Virgo South Node, with nothing conjuncting her Pisces North Node. (The same basic configuration as my friend). Her South Node is ruled by Mercury in Taurus, he North Node is ruled by Jupiter in Scorpio and Neptune is Saggitarius. Spends alot of time (like my friend) trying to be nothing but compulsively (Pluto conjunct Node) practical and serious, and rarely does much for fun or inspiration. Then after several days of this, maybe weeks...she will suddenly explode into the North Node and be romantic, sweet, idealistic, passionate and expressive. Then she feels guilty and becomes Ms. Practicality again, and it's a very polar type of behavior which she doesn't always recognizein herself.

      Someone else in this tribe once said that the South Node produces behaviors which we might never admit to ourselves or anyone because we just can't see it...and that is frequently the case with people with conditions such as Bi-polarism...which are sometimes considered a form of insanity.

      So I nominate the Nodes as a cuplrit of Bi-polarism not only because of these cases I mentioned, but because the Nodes are by definition BI-POLAR places in our charts!
  • I don't know, my EX is very bipolar and a bit psychotic, too.
    You can look at his chart at: www.tigereeks.com/eeks/Chip2.jpg
    • Unsu...
       
      Holy shit!,

      Well, let's see...Sun in Pisces, Moon in Gemini...

      oh yeah, there it is! The madness definitely comes from Mercury in Aquarius and Venus in Capricorn "laughs"
      • Unsu...
         
        seriously now,

        what strikes out to me is the heavily-aspected Aries Rising. Not only an aggressive Mars-Asc conjunction, but also 3 heavy squares and an opposition.

        His Rising squares Jupiter,Venus, and Uranus and opposes Neptune. These all make an irritating influence to one's physical self.
        The conjunction to Mars assures the tendency to react violently to all these outside stress influences.

        But the Rising and its aspects only constitute the favorable environment for violent outbursts.

        The other thing I noticed was the powerful squares between Sun and Moon, and between Mars and Venus.

        These aspects would not only indicate a certain degree of sexism, but the very fact that the individual has trouble finding some peace between his basic male and basic female sides, causing him, in the end, to hate them both, because he doesn't see the point in the union and peaceful cooperation of genders and yin-yang energies in this world.

        Neptune in the 7th house, conjunct the DC, and squaring Venus and Jupiter would only strengthen the feelings of awkwardness and delusion. He probably started out with that shaky ground created by the 2 squares, and built more shaky material on top until it all fell apart.

        Meaning the awkwardness was there, but he also had a strong need to believe in ideals of love, harmony and beauty. And when his dreams collapsed, he probably lost any will to control his impulses and gave up to reacting on selfish impulse - more specifically, reacting to all those "irritating influences" coming from his environment-which were mostly in his head, anyway.

        How's that? lol.
        • Unsu...
           
          Wow Mantis....well said. I totally agree with mars in the first house conjunct the asc to be an indication of a violent temperament, especially with that uranus square...can be sudden and unexpected violence typical with domestic abuse. Also with the square of venus and mars...total disrespect of women. I have the sun moon square, and it's a difficult energy that I still struggle with
        • "The other thing I noticed was the powerful squares between Sun and Moon"

          I wouldn't think too seriously off sun- moon oppositions/ squares in one's chart. There is a equal probability that a person is born with sun- moon oppositions/ squares as opposed to harmonious aspects because the moon goes through the zodiac very very quickly. Unless of course, the moon is otherwise unaspected which means neurotic tendencies and/ or emotional isolation tends to be the tendency, or hard aspects to outer planets.

          I tend to pay more attention to the aspects of the inner planets to the outer planets more than anything.

          • I wouldn't underestimate Sun-Moon aspects..........the hard aspects between Sun and Moon can be difficult in natal and synastry. the easy aspects between Sun and Moon can be difficult

            the orbs are factors...narrow orbed aspects stronger than wide orbed aspects.

            lunar phases can be factor.....even if the Sun-Moon aspects are waxing or waning.....like my lunar phase is first quarter and my Sun trine Moon is waxing.

            also...other things factor in like houses, signs.....also aspects to the Sun-Moon configuration

            I have Sun in Scorpio in 2nd trine Moon in Pisces in 6th myself, and Saturn quincunxes my Sun with 12 minutes of arc and squares my Moon with 1'58 orb. That would indicate the Sun trine Moon is not that easy and that there are some restrictions,limitations. I definitely don't take things for granted. I can easily express my feelings,emotions....even too easily....too emotional...with the water moonsign trine.
            I also feel that with my Moon being the apex of a t-square with Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd and retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th, the Sun trine Moon can help indicate that there is harmony inside me that helps me deal with my t-square issues.

            My mother has Sun quincunx Moon within 3 degrees, and its hard for her to express her emotions in a healthy way......she has modified by Pluto sextile her Sun and Pluto square her Moon.

            definitely have to take the whole chart into account


            free will is the ultimate factor
    • FJ
      FJ
      offline 7
      Does he act like he "forgets to feel" so then he goes on a binge of emotion which should have been expressed in another time and place? Completely unpredictiable moods, maybe for the most part very charitable among his friends and family, and then sems to resent it later and then display some very wierd moodiness? I'm just guessing.
      • FJ
        FJ
        offline 7
        (Questions about your boyfriend's chart, Catsmeow)
        • FJ, yes, extremely unpredictable and irrational AND impulsive (thanks to the Aries influence). Can tell me something and then turn around one hour later and insist on the complete opposite. The last few years of marriage were a living hell. He's on something now to help control going bonkers, but if he misses a dose we can sure tell it and so can he. He has a very generous heart, though, but even that goes to extreme. Because of his "generosity", he just put himself $44,000.00 in debt. I had to control the finances during the marriage in order to keep our credit rating excellent (he's an impulsive spender, too). Now that we're divorced, he got into a financial mess within one year and now wants to kill himself again (he has tried several times in the past and has some scars from it). He has the typcial Jekyll / Hyde personality. People thought we had the ideal fairytale marriage. LOLOL

          btw, he's my EX, definitely not my boyfriend. :o)

  • how do you distinguish the chart of a person who is a mixed anxiety depressive from a person who has bipolar?
    • I think the exact medical definition of the condition is not particularly important to astrology, but the nature of the condition is. I think you may be taking the definitions a little to seriously, not forgetting that most of these conditions are named by representatives of the medical institution.

      For example (this may be a generalization) but manic- depressive/ bipolar is about intense mood swings, it may de different from delusion or frequent hallucinations in Alzheimers or schizophrenia for instance.

      • just want to point out that mixed anxiety depressive disorder is different from bipolar. anxiety and mania aren't the same thing

        but anxiety disorders do get misdiagnosed.

        irritability is a symptom of not only mania, but it is also a symptom of anxiety and depression.

        but psychiatrists focus on irritability as mania too much.

        I had to read my DSM-IV and point out that irritability are symptoms of anxiety and depression too.

        I was eventually diagnosed as having having Inattentive type ADHD, Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Dysthymic Disorders years after I was misdiagnosed as having Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder. I had psychological testing that led to the diagnoses of Generalized Anxiety Disorder and Dysthmic Disorders. no psychological testing was done when I was misdiagnosed as having schizoaffective Bipolar Disorders. A few years later the ADHD,Anxiety,Dysthymic Disorder diagnoses, I had neurological testing/neuropsyche testing, I was diagnosed as having Dyslexia,Dyspraxia. So I succeeded in having all 3 of my neurodivergent conditions(Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD) recognized.


        also symptoms of ADHD overlap too

        Many ADHDers have been misdiagnosed Bipolar


        I really stress that neurological and psychological testing should be done to prevent neurodivergents from being misdiagnosed as having serious psychiatric disorders.
        • FJ
          FJ
          offline 7
          Do you have any planets conjunct your nodes, Raymond?

          • depends on what nodes you're asking about

            if you're asking about lunar nodes, the answer is No.

            if you're asking about planetary nodes, the answer is Yes

            In my geocentric chart:
            Sun conjunct South Eris Node - '09
            Venus conjunct South Venus Node - '45
            Imum Coeli conjunct South Uranus Node - '50
            North Lunar Node conjunct South Neptune Node - '53

            (Evolutionary astrologers use geocentric nodes...Zipporah Dobbyns used the geocentric nodes) I am leaning more towards evolutionary astrology,and so I prefer to use geocentric system with geocentric nodes. I frequent Maurice Fernandez's Evolutionary Astrology forum as Glaucus.

            In my heliocentric chart:
            Earth conjunct North Eris Node - '10
            Venus conjunct South Mercury Node - '36
            Venus conjunct South Uranus Node - '44
            Jupiter conjunct South Uranus Node - '15

            Heliocentric astrologers use planetary nodes
            www.heliocentric-astrology.com/He...tml


            geocentric planets conjunct heliocentric nodes:
            Sun conjunct South Eris Node - '10
            Mercury conjunct South Mercury Node - '20
            Mercury conjunct South Mercury Node - 1'00
            North Lunar Node conjunct South Neptune Node - '59

            some astrologers compare heliocentric nodes to planets
            www.astrologycosmobiology.com.au/p...ml




            Ever since, I got more into the astronomy of Astrology, I refer to the Lunar Nodes as the lunar nodes to distinguish them from the nodes of other heavenly bodies.
            • Like I said, before, these medical definitions are man- made, but the stars and its representations have outlived men since time immemorial, in science things are always being constructed and de- constructed. Anything man made can be broken down ad infinitum. But why obsess on these things?

              The purpose of astrology to me, is to see how we could use the energies for inner healing and understanding of self. That is why most people would agree with me that the chart like most other esoteric studies is a guide. How you wish to manifest the energies is up to you.
              • I agree but I believe in science as much as Astrology and in some cases,even more.......especially when it comes to neurology.

                neurodivergent conditions are hard to distinguish from psychiatric disorders....can't differentiate them from a chart......they are completely different things but with overlapping symptoms with some specific differences that take psychological and neurological testing to figure out.
  • "In a sky full of people, only some want to fly,
    Isn't that crazy?
    In a world full of people, only some want to fly,
    Isn't that crazy?
    Crazy...
    In a heaven of people there's only some want to fly,
    Ain't that crazy?
    Oh babe... Oh darlin...
    In a world full of people there's only some want to fly,
    Isn't that crazy?
    Isn't that crazy... Isn't that crazy... Isn't that crazy... "

    we're never gonna to survive unless we are a little... crazy.. :)
    • Unsu...
       
      seal?
      • Unsu...
         
        I have strong scorp/sag in my chart, and I'd say I've been prone to depression at times. But I've never been diagnosed as bi-polar. I think artists have the ability to dive into the deep waters, it's not always pretty, and does not always feel good
        • yes i agree, some people block out their feelings and fill themselves up with distractions...and what not always filling. some people just dive into it.

          i've tended to think that being born an artist is kind of like being born a homosexual, or being born with a disability, like being retarded.it's like the artists disease, or even the shamans disease. artists are willing to feel everything for everyone, and then when they go deep they bring up some jewels from the bottom and show it to everyone.
          other people can look or listen to their art and relate, because the artist is brave enough to stand naked and expose all of themselves. so people respond to it, because they can relate. then it becomes their story....
          i really dont like psychology or psychological descriptions, diagnoses. i dont think it helps people. personal opinion.
          i think we live in an intense world, and there seems to be some tendancy to pretend that we're all normal and good good, fine fine, and really we're just all feeling the whole spectrum of experience, good and bad, all the sensations.
          i don't know any one who's sane.
          i know a few people who seem to be getting close to something resembling sanity, but most of those people will admit they are crazy.
          • Unsu...
             
            "i really dont like psychology or psychological descriptions, diagnoses. i dont think it helps people."

            True, look at how many people get misdiagnosed. I think psychology makes people over-identify with their "sickness" Ever know psyche or med students start to manifest sicknesses that they've read about? Psychosomatic I think...you are what you think
          • "i really dont like psychology or psychological descriptions, diagnoses. i dont think it helps people. personal opinion.
            i think we live in an intense world, and there seems to be some tendancy to pretend that we're all normal and good good, fine fine, and really we're just all feeling the whole spectrum of experience, good and bad, all the sensations.
            i don't know any one who's sane. "

            You are Extremly wise and aware of reality by my personal opinion.
          • 'like being retarded.it's like the artists disease, or even the shamans disease'

            1. it is not like being retarded. its rude and disingenuous to use that term. downs syndrome is not even slightly relevant to this discussion.

            2. "Shamans disease"- a shaman, is someone who does spiritual work for certain types of persons or societies, and by the very position, has to have some form of self willed cognitive dissonance, to speak to you about spiritual, non-physical worlds.

            • I was called "retard" by regular school children because of my being in special education with my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia. That really damaged my self esteem a lot. I hate that word. To me, it's worse than calling me the n'word. I also got upset easily when people called me stupid,dumb,or other things. Those experiences got me to refrain from using those words against people. I was very irritable when I was in special education....even hit regular school children who called me "retard" or hit them. Also, a lot of the children in special education had behavior problems too.

              For many years,I kept my special education past from people too including females that I wanted to get involved with or involved with.

              it was like living in the closet......I was afraid that the truth would come out.
              • you are very right raymond. you know what? its sounds like you would make a perfect professional special needs, or developmentally disabled work. Its takes that kind of understanding and empathy to be good at that type of work. And, you obviously have learned quite alot about all related issues, and could facilitate some good works.
                • There was a guy in school when i grew up, that everyone called retarded. They found out later that he merely had dyslexia, but he was told he was retarded his whole life- so he became....retarded. People need to heavily develope some understanding of special needs. And the reality is- someone is ones family does have special needs, of some sort, so we should develop more accepting attitudes towards what we in society term 'mental defections'.

                • Thanks...

                  Well......I am Dyslexic,Dyspraxic,learning disability,neurodivergent,neurodiversity mental health advocate/activist
                  I feel that all the negative things that happened to me prepared me for that life purpose.

                  I am very concerned,worried about all the drugging that's going on with children....especially the neurodivergents. I know that I could have been one of those children on Ritalin or other meds if I was living with other people that weren't my family and didn't get me help for my problems. I was misdiagnosed by psychiatrists in adulthood. So I do know. There were Dyspraxics in UK that said that many neurodivergents are misdiagnosed as having serious psychiatric disorders. I feel that's the same thing here in USA.

                  If I was growing up with more awareness of my conditions and good self esteem, maybe I would have pursued a career in special education. When a gal that I knew from special education told me that she wanted to be a special education teacher, I felt very uncomfortable,it reminded me of my past. I was thinking to myself "why would she want to do that...I wouldn't...I wouldn't want to be reminded of my past" I was in my senior year of high school,doing poorly in school.

                  when I learned about Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD in 2003, that's when I realized I wasn't retarded nor stupid. I see things differently now. I stopped being ashamed,feeling inferior because of my special education past and my Dyslexic,Dyspraxic,ADHD symptoms that got me mistaken for being stupid by even navy coworkers. Now I am more open about it and try to raise awareness of these neurodivergent conditions. I am very open to the women that I was involved with. I told my girlfriend about my past shortly after I met her. She loves me in spite of my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD.

                  I feel that my experiences also lead me to want to treat others like I want to be treated,be nice to people, and being easily moved by others who are different,outsiders,and/or mistreated in some way.......I especially have a compassion for special needs children like I used to be.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    I feel that my experiences also lead me to want to treat others like I want to be treated,be nice to people

                    Well, amen to that.

                    My brother and niece are both dyslexic, bt unfortunately grew up in an educational authority that did not really recognsie it, deciding that this was just another word for 'lack of motivation to learn.'

                    So there a diagnosis or label could have helped a lot more then denying it, but that never happened. My niece is unemployed. She has Uranus rising. My brother has his Sun ruler Mercury retrograde rising in Cancer.


                    I did get a few labels, usually along the lines of being crazy. I was not actually given any laberl but somhow, certainly still felt stigmatised, especially when at 11 one of the educational psychologists who saw me wrote in big letters at the top of my file 'left handed.' When I asked him why, he denied that this meant anything, though I have read that at one time it was decided that left-handedness was somehow pathological, and that is certainly how he made me feel. Yes, there are plenty of good, juicy afflictions in my 3rd House, at least with some house systems.

                    I have known a few people who turned out to be bi-polar. One did have a lot of planets in Aries-Libra, the other lots of Pisces-Aries. Someone else who apparently had an Aquarius Sun, which in itself did not tell me a great deal, there was something fiery, something scropionic there, but she certainly struck me as being emotionally damaged - seems that was definitely the case, actually. Then I met somone who had a birthday in early August and he would have had a sun conjunct Neptune. He put on a bash fit for kings. When he crashed, he became a total recluse. Often it seemed to me that these people wanted to enjoy the feeling of being happy at all costs, every day like Christmas or summer holidays, which is impossible. There are some people who say that SAD is a form of bi-polar, so there is one big astrological factor to this condition that now really stands out, but maybe it is more a question of any number of astrological combos leading to the same result. I don't care for the idea of seeing any particualr birthchart factor singled out in advance, then a minority report job done anyway.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    i, unfortunately, was a ritalin baby. i remember the doc looking across the desk at me and telling me he was giving me pills so i could stop 'having ants in my pants'. asshole.

                    my phys ed teacher figured it out- i had alot of energy, and sometimes the classroom setting was to slow, so she would send me out to run around the school track a time or two. id come back in, feeling great, and ready to pay attention.
            • maybe this will post somewhere in the right place...
              but anyway wasnt directing that at anyone, actually was directing it at myself, saying that as an artist i feel like i'm kinda messed up in some ways.
              thats why i make art...one of the reasons actually. and so to be born an artist is like being born retarded, is what i was trying to say.
              no offense to the disabled, just trying to say in many ways i can't handle doing a lot of normal things that other people consider easy.mhy concentration and focus is different, and not for the better, unless i am making art. i have a difficult time with a lot of things that people think are very basic.
              and i feel everything. intensely. sometimes i cry just walking down the street, not sure why, but i dont think theres something wrong with me. i think it's just one expression of the spectrum of experience, sensation.
              should i take happy pills, i dont think so. some other people do tho. i was forced and manipulated by people who thought they were helping me to take medicines that were poisons.
              i have had my time of being labelled lots of things, i have supposedly ptsd,post traumatic stress disorder, having been abused as a child and dealt with all sorts of psycholigists and was forced into psychiatric treatment.
              i have also been labelled as having some sort of personality disorder, something which i think just about everyone has by it's description.
              i do not believe any of these descriptions of myself, i am telling myself a different story.
              i think i have a bad case of having a shitty childhood and stupid people raise me. sorry love the parents too, but man were they messed up especially when i was a young person.psycheldelics fear and crappy food....
              i think i have a bad case of living in a world where people insists that history repeats itself in an endless nightmare.
              so yeah i have the artsits disease, and maybe even the shamans disease too, maybe i dont know maybe i feel like wearing those labels today. maybe tommorow i'll change my mind.
              do you know that psychology was started by men who would send their women off to these hosptials when they got hysterical...that they had madness of the womb(hyster- womb)?
              and that they primarily treated the women by getting them off? thats how the vibrator was invented so the doctors didnt actually have to actually touch the womans sex....
              gosh if psychology was still like that i might be interested in going to a psychologist..
              but for now the way it is, and i know everyone will not agree with me it is not helping people....
              i think maybe a lot of these conditions could just be deviations, and anyway are a part of that persons normalcy, that is the way they are, imperfect and perfect like everything else.
              i think and hope it does advance and people become better at understanding their minds and the sickness and health that can be.

              as for me i have found some healing in applying myself to spiritual things and to believing in myself and my own healing. also i have found healing thru both love and also art.
              and think it's really healthy for me to stay away from psychologists and their mostly bad poison medicine.i would tell the same to anyone who was my friend, and have.
              anyway apologies to any one offended. i know quite a few disabled people and have had many friends who have worked in the field of caring for the disabled.
              • i hear ya girl. i got rid of my psychologist when he asked 'how do you feel about that'? for the hundreth time. i told him we were quite clear about how i felt, what was needed, was some good action oriented ways to resolve them, not delving back into my childhood, when my issue was the death of my mate. psychologists are a patent waste of money, its easier, and just as effective, to talk to a stranger at a coffeeshop.
                i too, find art to be a way to communicate feelings and thoughts i cannot any other way. sometimes i think that is the real language of my soul, not the words i use.
                • yes theres a tendancy of psychologist to enable people to hold onto their pain, rather than relaese it and move forward. it's as if we continue to to talk about crappy stuff we're gonna feel better? i dont think so. people are all too willing many times to hold onto pain, when really it's what your doing here now that matters. it's what you do with your pain that mattres, do you let it make you bitter, make you feel victimized, let it make you be sick now...thats not a good thing. do you say no i'm ok now, maybe that happened think about it for a while hopefully learn from it and then move on into a world of possibility?
                  and people often hold onto the identity of being sick weird or not quite right...when thats just a bunch of projections. maybe most of the things you identify with are projections, and whether or not they get reinforced is how well your doing!?! that doesnt really make sense but that seems to be how it goes. it would be hard to let go of all indentity, but that may be the best thing for everyone.
                  but if they get reinforced enough the person might not be able to realize that they are just perfect as they are, even if they are imperfect too. and even people who havent been thru being labelled with something have this sense to, that theres something thats normal and right, and then their lives are not quite up to that standard, not enough money, not a good relationship, whatever it is. there is no standard! nobody's living it at least, except maybe on tv commercials. whereever you are is exactly right,theres a reason for it. i mean some things happen and their your fault, some things just happen and theyre not your fault, but looking at how you can not get immeshed in that in the future and then let it go! i mean if you dont like it then change some things up, grow and release whats held you back.
                  and astrology could be a good tool for this.
                  if psychologist did look at astrology it might help a bit, because it tells us that everyone has a different story, a different way of projecting ourselves, a different way of reinforcing our identity. we have different ideas, and there is no standard theres just round and round the wheel and positive and negetive expression of the various sub personalities(planets and placements) we have.
                  i got myself in trouble because i didnt yet know that it is good to lie to doctors, my nature is very honest. i sort of remember that i tried to explain to the doctors about things like synchronicity and manifestation, about having dreams about things that later happened, and about feeling my body expanding and rushes of energy. this is totally crazy to them, but i didnt know they didnt know about these things. the trauma and physical danger i was in as a child prompted me to begin to astral project, something like that...started my spirtual development.....tho i didnt have those words...i would escape into a dream world. they didnt believe in spiritual things and consider it a given that these things do not happen. even tho i know for a fact that they do, not only do i experience them but i have found a lot of references for them as an adult.there are still people who think i'm spun for talking about things like this...but i know what i'm talking about. i can see in the future sometimes, i can read peoples minds spontaneously, and i know how people are feeling because i'm empathic. a lot of children who are abused know about this stuff, the brain starts to develop a sort of higher sense when theres a lot of danger..you learn to tune in and sense when things are getting weird so you can be on gaurd. your body is always alert, your mind picks up everything. .they have a label for this , theres one of the personality disorders that deals with some kind of magical thinking.
                  i mean can you believe that there a sickness about the ability to be a magical thinker? and theres bad drugs for being a magical thinker....
                  they take it for granted that the universe works according to their ideas about things, and their ideas are defintely not magical.
                  and then many people think theres something wrong with them because they are magical thinkers, dont see things like everyone else, or are whatever , deviation from a non exsistant norm.and they walk around feeling bad about themselves...
                  now if there were psychologists who knew how to read a birth chart and they read my neptune very close conjunct mercury rising, saturn retrograde in eighth house, cancer moon in ninht house square uranus in twelth, they would have known that i do actually have dreams that come true, know things that are happeneing without knowing why....and i do actually know what people are thinking and feeling without logical explanation, am very telepathic, and without there being anything wrong with me.
                  but whew whatever...i dont believe in psychologists!
  • I think using an astrology chart to confirm a suspicion of pathology is abuse of the art of astrology & unfair to the person.

    This is not 'reading a chart' but attempting to fit a person into an already defined (pathological) box.
    Let the chart tell you, not the other way around!

    love all-ways,
    mem
    • Unsu...
       
      but mem,

      if one doesn't analyze the charts on already diagnosed mentally-deranged individuals, how can one determine for sure if there are or aren't some connections between the chart and pathology?

      And there are. On the bobmarksastrologer. com, site, the man speaks of how a killer could've been prevented from murdering some I dunno how many innocent people if only he would've known how to read his chart.
      • if one doesn't analyze the charts on already diagnosed mentally-deranged individuals, how can one determine for sure if there are or aren't some connections between the chart and pathology?
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        an astrology chart describes a person who may have 'tendencies' but whether or not these 'tendencies' are translated into actual 'problems' is up to the person, not the chart

        astrology is NOT about determining "for sure" ~ I think this idea leads down a VERY dangerous & misleading path, rife with abuse
        a person is more than just their astrology chart

        the man speaks of how a killer could've been prevented from murdering some I dunno how many innocent people if only he would've known how to read his chart.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        what separates someone who actually goes off on some horrible crime & murdering spree & someone who channels the exact same aspects into creative art that makes the world a better place to live in?

        just like "not every child who has been abused will grow up to be an abuser" ~ although the 'tendency' may be there ~
        to assume that someone will definitely take the "lower path" when many are available is to limit & condemn them, when externally applied
        & not the best application of astrology IMO

        love all-ways,
        mem



        • Unsu...
           
          Thank you for putting it that way mem. I have been the victim of "astrology abuse" in my personal life before...it is hurtful and dangerous to assume how someone is going to behave or evolve just by reading their astro chart
          • Unsu...
             
            U kidding?

            I'm a PISCES. If I haven't been victim to assumptions, then I dunno who was!

            In most astrology articles the happiest version of the story would be marrying some old Capricorn banker for the women, and drinking urself to an easy death by cirrhosis for men.

            It took me a while to learn how to not take everything so personally and sensitively.

            I think most people that are on the astrology tribe are already mature enough to understand that astrology is merely a guide, but nowhere near as concrete as a guide.
            It doesn't actually do anything for u. But it can be by ur side when u go off on some new adventure.
            • no, I'm not kidding....

              In most astrology articles the happiest version of the story would be marrying some old Capricorn banker for the women, and drinking urself to an easy death by cirrhosis for men.
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              that's why I am taking the time to try & help raise the study, art & science of astrology out of the "lowest common denominator" mentality ~ I take every opportunity to "raise the bar" a bit

              I think most people that are on the astrology tribe are already mature enough to understand that astrology is merely a guide, but nowhere near as concrete as a guide.
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              but specifically, this thread was started by a person who is new to the tribe (from my perspective) & has asked a very specific question about a person she already has in mind ~ I am answering in that spirit

              love all-ways,
              mem
        • Unsu...
           
          well, I'm not trying to imply that this or that aspect may cause this or that mental illness.

          I've long given up the idea that astrology can be used to determine these perfect mathematical equations like.."the perfect relationship would have to have the following synastry aspects:", or.."the perfect artist would have to have these aspects:"

          Or "this aspect+2 of these aspects-the other aspect will give u a 60% chance of developing a bipolar disorder".

          But I do think it is important to study tendencies, because sometimes the evil can be cut from the root. For instance, parents would be able to help a child overcome natural insecurities or fears by learning to provide them with an appropriate environment.

          I would never tell a person something like.."oh- Mercury in the 12th, square Moon, opposite Chiron-Saturn conjunction in the 3rd, Sun conjunct Neptune in Pisces-clearly no logical thinking and u can forget those shitty pipe dreams about becoming a writer".

          But the example I mentioned about the murderer was of a guy that actually said he felt like killing someone, and the therapist didn't take him seriously.
          There were some very suggestive transits to his natal chart placements to suggest he was gonna blow, and if the therapist would've had some knowledge and interest in astrology, could've prevented it by actually taking it seriously and alerting someone.
          • There is this hard to accept fact about things like psychotics and sociopaths, serial killers, etc.- extremely sick individuals, usually DO know they are different, and certainly appear normal to the general populace. We do not expect a psychopath to come out of the woodwork- and it frightens us deeply when it happens. As people, we are powerless to see such things- so we backpedal, and say things like ' if they had looked at his chart'. Its our small, futile attempt to remedy what cannot be remedied- and saying 'if we but had' is our coping mechanism for such mental abberations. 'Cutting evil from the root' is dangerous language- evil and cutting are very subjective terms, and very labeling. hitler was trying to cut evil from its root, with his racial genocide.

            we all do not come out of the same suitcase- so take a chillpill, and learn to see the piscean in everyone.
            • Unsu...
               
              Travis,

              What does Hitler have to do with anything? It's just an expression and u know what I meant by it.

              Why don't u also ban all countries from carrying red on their flags, cuz Hitler had it?, or maybe ban all men from ever growing a mustache?
              • 'What does Hitler have to do with anything? It's just an expression and u know what I meant by it.

                Why don't u also ban all countries from carrying red on their flags, cuz Hitler had it?, or maybe ban all men from ever growing a mustache?'

                If you did not understand what i was implying, we are unable to communicate on this level. Have a good evening.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  I know what u were implying.

                  U were trying to say that one rule cannot be applied to everyone, since we're each so unique.

                  But I was referring to the post where I said parents could use astrology to help understand their children's possible fears and insecurities, and thus prevent them from developing an insecurity, or give them the proper instructions on how to control them, before they end up in the situation of killing people, or even much less-dramatic, personal issues.
                  There's nothing leveling or Hitler-like about that.

                  And it's noon, here, actually.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    But I was referring to the post where I said parents could use astrology to help understand their children's possible fears and insecurities, and thus prevent them from developing an insecurity, or give them the proper instructions on how to control them, before they end up in the situation of killing people, or even much less-dramatic, personal issues.
                    There's nothing leveling or Hitler-like about that.
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    giving people "proper instructions on how to control them" is EXACTLY Hitler-esque

                    the road to Hell is paved with good intentions

                    I know that you are looking at your own words, from the best possible angle ~ parents only have the best interest of their children in mind & all that ~ it's just that these VERY SAME IDEAS in the hands of someone not-so-benevolent (which can be difficult to determine) can be very destructive

                    it's not the idea, but the specific application that throws warning flags up for me

                    love all-ways,
                    mem
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      Well, Hitler and I do share a 7th house Sun and a 3rd house Pluto.LOL And some German blood..LOL

                      Seriously, though. This could lead to an astrology joke..

                      How do we know when we've entered the Age of Aquarius?

                      When Pisces get banned if speaking their minds.


                      "giving people "proper instructions on how to control them" is EXACTLY Hitler-esque "

                      Well..there's no other way to say it-that I know of. And the control issue is not Hitler-esque. It's human. In his case, the humanity met with bad astrological influences at birth and, even worse, favorable astrological influences when attacking Austria.(we've all been there.."laughs")
                      .

  • Here is a description of symptoms in somebody who you think may be psychotic,bipolar,and/or schizophrenia

    * Difficulty with dressing and grooming activities, such as putting on makeup, shaving, doing hair, fastening clothes and tying shoelaces
    * May talk continuously and repeat themselves. have difficulty with organizing the content and sequence of their language
    * May have unclear speech
    * Speech may have uncontrolled pitch, volume and rate
    * Difficulty in planning and organising thought
    * Poor memory, especially short-term memory. May forget and lose things
    * Unfocused and erratic. Can be messy and cluttered
    * Difficulty in following instructions, especially more than one at a time
    * Difficulty with concentration. May be easily distracted
    * May do only one thing at a time properly, though may try to do many things at once
    * Slow to finish a task. May daydream and wander about aimlessly
    * Difficulty in listening to people, especially in large groups. Can be tactless, interrupt frequently. Problems with team work
    * Slow to adapt to new or unpredictable situations. Sometimes avoids them altogether
    * Impulsive. Tendency to be easily frustrated, wanting immediate gratification
    * Tendency to be erratic have 'good and bad days'
    * Tendency to opt out of things that are too difficult
    * Tend to get stressed, depressed and anxious easily
    * May have difficulty sleeping
    * Prone to low self-esteem, emotional outbursts, phobias, fears, obsessions, compulsions and addictive behavior
    * Little sense of time
    * Inadequate sense of direction.
    * Lack of awareness of body position in space and spatial relationships

    Psychotic,Bipolar,Schizophrenia....right?


    Nope!


    Its symptoms of Dyspraxia
    www.dyspraxiausa.org/adult_symptoms.html

    It's from Dyspraxia USA founded by my fellow Dyspraxic,Warren Fried . I am a member of the organization.

    I am a believer that mental health professionals should have their patients undergo psychological and neurological testing to differentiate schizophrenia,bipolar,psychosis from a neurodivergent condition like Dypraxia or other neurodivergent conditions like Dyslexia,Aspergers,Autism,ADHD which are known to have comordidity with Dyspraxia.
  • Hello all,

    Thank you for the overwhelming response. No one has really mentioned houses though.

    I was told 4, 8, 12, more 12 than 4 and 8. Anyone care to comment.
    • god i hope not, i've 6 of my planets which are in 4, 8 or12;
      • Don't worry Paul, it is how you choose to manifest these energies that are more important than the inherent energies as placed in your chart.

        I think madness is a form of disconnection from the Universe, when you disconnect yourself and let your intensity control you instead of driving it some purpose. The purpose does not have to be a physical purpose like work, etc, but can be directed inwards to healing, understanding yourself, and most people find themselves and other people not that easy to understand.

        But the relief when something clicks on a soul level... the littlest truths when admitted to yourself can be transforming in a good way.
      • Unsu...
         
        Well Paul.... I got 5 planets in Water, 4 in Earth....

        7 total in Water/Earth houses... Triple Yin.

        We don't live in a world where the 8th house = Death... is a mystery. We don't live in a society where the 4th house... Foundation, cannot be expanded to a Universal level. And the 12th.... Well not everyone has a bad secret agenda.

        We are able to play with the cards handed to us.
        • Unsu...
           
          If the wheel is a clock... Cardinal points being...

          6 AM, Noon, 6 PM, Midnight..... When the sun is on the top... in 10th... It is Noon... brightest hour of the day. The winter Solstice deals with Noon.

          The shortest day of the year... But light/Days are slowly growing longer....Capricorn

          NOW back to clock... the Sun inverts itself... like a procession through the wheel... But we go clockwise on the wheel... While the Sun goes counter-clockwise.

          Every house has the ability to act out in its opposite direction. Your a Gemini... It should make sense! Even the magnetic poles shoots through the north, and then wraps itself up ((( ))), going right back through the south. Maybe that is what is meant by as above, as below. Wax On, Wax Off! Earth houses are opposite to Water houses... You can choose what direction you want to aim towards ;) .

          www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geoma...larexp.jpg
          • Unsu...
             

            Water

            Fri, February 8, 2008 - 2:14 PM
            This is for you Paul... Maybe it will bring some inspiration!

            Water, like earth, is heavy, and falls to the earth. It is less easily constrained than earth, but more easily than fire or air. Yet water can rise up into the air (although it often falls again as rain.) Unlike fire and air, it forms a flat surface, therefore, like earth, it has some form. It is therefore less limited than the earth, but more limited than fire and air. While fire cannot be contained, it disappears if you totally enclose it, and air expands to fill any container, water is more limited and keeps it volume, and has a level. While fire cannot destroy the earth, water can. It is the universal solvent that has the potential to make everyone one, without destroying that which it unites. Water can rise high with the help of air, but generally doesn't move upwards. Water is extremely powerful, and will always find its own level. If artificially constrained at a high level, it will eventually break free, but then it will fall. Water is impressionable and reflective. It can go deep. Archetypal water refers to the feelings and the emotions. It refers to the unconscious mind.

            Normally water is cold, that is, it absorbs energy. It takes in the energy of others. Water is more sensitive than the other elements in that it can appear in the three forms of matter: solid like the earth; liquid - its normal state - and as vapour - like air.

            Water people are very sensitive to their own feelings and those of others. They perceive life through their emotions. They are concerned with what feels right, with their hunches or impressions, rather than with what is practical or rational. They use the emotions, not the intellect, to understand and to value. Water can raise people to the heights of bliss, but can bring them down to the depths of despair.

            Water rises into the air and falls as rain, nurturing the land. The earth absorbs it to become fertile. We can go for weeks without food, but only days without water. Living things need water. With it they grow and mature. Without it they die.

            Water people need close emotional relationships, and rarely have superficial affairs. They can be volatile. They are romantic, sentimental and affectionate. They can be very nurturing and very possessive with their family and spouse. They have fixed opinions. They communicate in non-verbal ways; emotionally, psychically, or through forms as art, dance, music, poetry and photography. Their beliefs are based on feelings rather than on reason, passion or practicality.
        • Unsu...
           
          5 planets? really?

          u're making me feel dry.

          LOL. But I hope u're not cheating. In order to make such a strong statement, the planets should be personal, not outer planets.
          • Unsu...
             
            Well... Sun, Mars, Mercury, Ceres in Cancer

            Pluto, Saturn, PoF, South Node in Scorpio

            Im cheating! heheheh
            • Unsu...
               
              Virgo Moon, Rising
              Taurus Venus
              Capricorn Neptune

              Water planets in Earth house... Vice Versa for the most part.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Vertex in Pisces if that means anything. Then the Lilith in Taurus.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  Im muddy... and starting to get runny!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Allan,

                    I love your "Forrest" insert some 800 replies ago. Totally off the topic but I think his outlook for contemporary astrology is very intelligent and well researched. I wish even 0.05% of the world's media savvy population had any inkling of the profundity that he ascribes to the subject. But I also see the very HIP hyper extension that he sees Astrology as undergoing currently in terms of sub-planetary significance, mathematical derivatives , etc, etc, etc. ad nauseum......is really white wash subterfuge on the deeper challenges that are very well summed by the Garden Variety placements represented in a standard 10 planet, house system chart.

                    With the exception of Midpoints and Astrocartography which I see as modern and logical contributions to the art, most of the embellishments are just that....add ons, that only attempt to dilute the key elements of the study by clouding the essentials in information overload.

                    I personally see Astrology having the same old "Market Perception" in the Woman's Magazine wasteland that it has always floundered in. This has, in a weird way, protected it from the deadening effects of a greater scientific, media and philosophical scrutiny.

                    I personally would prefer to see a more intelligent, holistic delivery of the poetic, mythological themes at the core of planetary meaning made famous by people like Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas, among many others....rather than a vacuous list of disconnected, politically contextual, soundbite interpretations made by the hip new cafe astrologer.

                    Dude, make mine a Peugeot Latte Decafe,

                    Redd
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      Your right Redd,

                      Pick up with the times... what works for you, works for you... You don't learn on a messaging board. Get some books ;) . This isn't coaching... I spoke from the bottom of my heart.

                      There is something that can touch everybody or anybody. Even if it is meself...

                      Only thing I got here is a joint... have a puff.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        When the Self is described as 'the unity of the personality as a whole', we can look to the total horoscope as its blueprint, including not only signs, planets and houses but also aspects and balances (or imbalances) of elements and qualities, lunar phases, every detail, in fact, that comprises the art of horoscopic interpretation. The self is therefore the entire chart, natal and progressed. But there is a difficulty in that whatever it is that 'induces a man to go his own way' does not appear to be in the horoscope. Any experienced astrologer will have come across those people who, far from manifesting the highly individual story of the birth chart, do not in any way resemble it ... that is, no individual is at home, but rather a collective mouthpiece ... There is nothing in the horoscope which can tell us why that person is not expressing his horoscope, but it stares one in the face from the opposite chair. Thus there is something about the Self which is not only the totality of the horoscope, but is also more than the horoscope. - Liz Greene, astrologer

                        Theres a bone.
  • Hi Lady Saber,

    Sorry forgot your question.

    There are no specific aspects or signs, but some potential indicators might include: Strong Fire/ Water planetary combinations. Strong Jupiter aspects, particularly Squares. Jupiter is highly inflationary, the urge to be bigger than life, to adventure beyond one's means is ever present. But also Saturnine connections to the 'personal planets' (Sun, Moon, Merc, Venus esp.) which can drive a person to deep introspection and depression. Neptune/ Pisces contacts may also indicate a lack of personal boundary. And as for Cancer.....well we all know what the moon can do.....!

    Redd Barron
    • Ron
      Ron
      offline 0
      A chart is a road map, a set of energetic potentials that reflect the connection of the cosmos with the bios. It is important to realize that our entire life is experienced through the film of our consciousness, much like sitting in a theater and experiencing all the different feelings one might experience...horror movie, comedy, romance, sci-fi, drama, action, silent movie, etc. We go to the movies to get lost in the experience and seldom turn around, take a walk to the back of the theater and stand up on the back row of seats and look into the projector house to see where the "movie" is coming from. When we do, we find there is only one light there, and yet we experience all the different thoughts and feelings as that one light, through the different films, energies the different experiences. Our personal consciousness is similar to the film itself. The "One Light" shines through that consciousness and what we "see" depends largely upon the contents and energetic level of our own consciousness or film. This is the reason that two people can see, hear or otherwise be witness to the exact same thing and have two entirely different experiences.

      All truth is dependent upon context. The larger the context the more whole/holy/healing [they all derive from the same word] the truth, and therefore the more inherent power to it. Further, there is no truth that when experienced from a vastly larger context that doesn't become false. It is important to realize this when using astrology as a counseling tool. Astrology is such a potent tool because it provides the largest visible context available to humanity. Its power is witnessed to the degree it has been made taboo.

      When considering depression/bipolar tendencies, it is good to remember the above. The same constructs in a chart can produce vastly different experiences, again, based upon where personal consciousness is at. There are good comments on this page as to some indicators to be mindful of. From experience, some of these are personal planet contacts (natal, transit or progressed) from Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto. In addition, water houses, particularly the 12th house, that are heavily populated, again, either natally or by transit or progression, and especially if in combination with the prior sentence condition, tend to be spots where deep and often contradictory feeling arises.

      Another couple esoteric comments are in order .

      When trying to "help" other people, it is important to heed the sages advice first. "Physician, heal thyself". This is the most important thing we can do to help another. Why? Because we can not care for, love, heal, etc. any one else to any degree more than we have cared for, loved, and healed ourself. It is not energetically possible. This goes to the root of all "faith traditions" before separating the "One" into two. For purposes of this discussion, the Hindu, Jewish and Mayan expressions will be examined in the following essential phrases..."Thou art That", and "I Am That I Am" and "IN LA KE’CH, meaning "I Am Another You". In other words, the best healing we can provide the world is to first heal (become whole in mind-body-spirit-perception) ourselves. Quite often then we can be with another's pain or suffering without trying to fix it, minimize it, or make it go away, and in that space, be catalysts for authentic healing.

      Applying all the above to manic depression/bipolar "diagnosis" is informative. Firstly, depression is simply feeling that has not been processed fully through the lungs (the lungs are the organ that processes grief). The greatest source of pain, suffering and depression on the planet is not coming into alignment/relationship with what IS. In allowing our own personal film/consciousness/perception to take precedent over what IS, we find that we suffer. In authentically letting go of our cherished opinions, ideas, beliefs, etc. [as we are finding we have to do today en mass], depression is often the logical and natural result. Often times it is not only our beliefs that we are surrendering on the alter of Truth (larger context), but also those of our ancestors. Change of this magnitude does not come without the pangs of "letting go", much in the same way as the dying process.

      Summarizing, in order to heal [become whole], we have to surrender every last illusion and perception of duality. We literally have to be "born again", but not like it has come to be known by those uninitiated. The truest and most powerful symbol of this "2nd birth" is the Skull & Crossbones. It currently means death/poison/pirates, etc., however, its unified original meaning is much different. The first birth is the physical birth through the two cross bones (the hips). This birth, by its nature, is into a world of two, or duality. The 2nd birth is an energetic birth when the creative/creator's/kundalini energy has risen sufficiently on the etheric "staff" alongside the spine to purify the entire system and emerge again from the pineal (seat of the soul). This second birth is also known as the "Virgin Birth". As the pineal opens and gives birth to unified consciousness, we are literally and figuratively "born again". This healing and re-birthing process is ruled by Virgo/Pisces axis.

      On a global level, as we come to the end of the age of Pisces, the collective energy is rising...towards the unification point. In some of these things that have been overlain with the weight of history, it is good to thing in other terms, like electricity. In the western Christian story, separation from the kingdom of wholeness occurs when we partake of the knowledge of good (the positive pole) AND evil (the negative pole). To the extent that our consciousness is/has attached itself to one pole or refused/repressed the other, it is to this extent at this great time of healing, that, in order to experience wholeness that a full energetic flow implies, we have to remove the "charge" (judgment/repression/attachment) from either pole. Following this path slightly farther, we find the real necessity then to experience both poles (both plus and minus, both "good" and "evil", etc.) in equanimity, without attaching to one or repressing the other.

      Therefore, we can see that manic depression & bipolar tendencies actually are serving a purpose...to actually feel the loss of eons of ideals, perceptions, beliefs,etc. Any feeling, felt to completion, leads to wholeness. It is also serving to re-align us with what IS versus hanging on tenaciously to what we would "like it to be", as filtered through our own personal story. Finally bi-polarism is just that...experiencing both poles. Can we experience this personally or in those around us without judging it, trying to fix it, or make it go away? If we can experience both poles w/o judgment of or attachment to either, we can rest in the "Peace That Passeth Understanding". Until that time, the mind is busy trying to force the world to fit our film, where the larger-context wisdom of the ages indicates that "To everything there is a season". We are in a season of radical healing, coming to the end of an entire way of being, therefore radical experiences seem to be on the rise. Grieving is a natural part of this process, as is experiencing the "heavens" and "hells" of our being in equanimity.
      • oh my.........
        "Finally bi-polarism is just that...experiencing both poles. Can we experience this personally or in those around us without judging it, trying to fix it, or make it go away? If we can experience both poles w/o judgment of or attachment to either, we can rest in the "Peace That Passeth Understanding"."

        Easy for someone to say if you have not been at the receiving end of a bipolar person trying to kill you. Nice flowery words, but totally unrealistic, especially that last sentence. I've got 3 bipolar relatives and a nice group of them which I was working with, and in no way would I remain passive to abuse (your words of not judging it, trying to fix it or make it go away).
      • Unsu...
         
        ron,

        I think u are right, but too much focused on the yin perspective of the issue.

        Remember medicine and objective knowledge, as well-there are genetic predispositions and as-such. It's not just an adapting to the new age thing.

        And about depression-speaking from someone who's been there and is still there on an on/off schedule, depression can be very easily explained in a rational manner.

        In my case, the trigger was realizing that the one thing I held to be most important and worthwhile in life was a self-delusion and a lie. And I've tried to find substitute-goals, but none as clearly defined as the old "mirage" thingy.

        And in addition to spending a lot of time in that state of depression and turmoil, it probably also damaged my psyche on a very deep level, and, consequently, my health. I've had a lot of related health issues due to the stress-the inner stress I felt while I was depressed.

        The side effects is that I still have days in which I will feel the same heaviness in my chest for absolutely no reason, and no matter how hard my rational mind works to try to keep me focused, and on track, I still get caught up in those states of hating everything around me and not caring about anything.
        It's scary cuz they can hit u any time, and make u ruin whatever u were working at attaining by that point.
        My guess is it's a medical thing already. They're just uncontrollable.
        • Unsu...
           

          Case example....

          Sun, February 10, 2008 - 3:26 PM
          Just think about how many brilliant minds got their heads... outta their assholes... And worked with their own sickness. To be technical, Bi-Polar isn't the same as manic depression. It is the differences of variation of the brain waves of Alpha and Beta.

          School dropout -

          Einstein loved music and cycling. He was also a school dropout.

          He did so badly at school his teachers told his parents to take him out because he was “too stupid to learn” and it would be a waste of resources to invest time and energy in his education. The school suggested that his parents get him an easy, manual labour job as soon as they could.

          He did finally graduate from the Polytechnic School in Zurich, but could not find a job in a university so he worked for the Swiss Patent Office and spent his spare time working on theoretical physics problems.

          In 1905 while still at the patent office and at just 26 years of age, he published three papers in the leading German physics journal, Annalen der Physik.

          The papers on Brownian motion, the photoelectric effect and special relativity contained explanations and ideas that changed the way we view the world. His work on photoelectric effect earned him a Nobel Prize in 1921.

          Many of the great breakthroughs of the past century -- quantum theory, the computer revolution, nuclear power, lasers, space travel, Global Positioning Systems -- can in some way be put down to Einstein’s genius.



          “When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute -- and it’s longer than any hour. That’s relativity.”

          "I am happy because I want nothing from anyone. I do not care for money. Decorations, titles, or distinctions mean nothing to me. I do not crave praise. The only thing that gives me pleasure, apart from my work, my violin, and my sailboat, is the appreciation of my fellow-workers."

          "I am neither especially clever nor especially gifted. I am only very, very curious."

          Albert Einstein on Marriage

          When you're not with me, I feel as though I'm not complete. When I'm sitting, I want to go away; when I go away, I'd rather be home; when I'm talking with people, I'd rather be studying; when I study, I can't sit still and concentrate; and when I go to sleep, I'm not satisfied with the way the day has passed. - Albert Einstein in a letter to his future wife, Mileva Maric, August 6, 1900

          Like many other geniuses Albert Einstein had a dark side. He treated his first wife, Mileva Maric, a mathematician and a brilliant scientist, disgracefully. As an example read this shocking memorandum in which Albert, cirka July 18, 1914, demands in writing Mileva to obey following cruel and degrading orders as the conditions under which he would agree to continue to live with her in Berlin:

          A. You will see to it that:
          1. My clothes and laundry are kept in good order;
          2. I will be served three meals regularly in my room;
          3. My bedroom and study are kept tidy, and especially that my desk is left for my use only.

          B. You will relinquish all personal relations with me insofar as they are not completely necessary for social reasons. Particularly, you will forgo my:
          1. Staying at home with you;
          2. Going out and traveling with you.

          C. You will obey the following points in your relations with me:
          1. You will not expect any tenderness from me, nor will you offer any suggestions to me;
          2. You will stop talking to me about something if I request it;
          3. You will leave my bedroom or study without any back talk if I request it.

          D. You will undertake not to belittle me in front of our children, either through words or behavior.

          Mileva Maric left Berlin with the children at the end of July.
          • Re: Case example....

            Sun, February 10, 2008 - 4:16 PM

            Bipolar is Manic Depression. Manic Depression is the old term for Bipolar.

            there are 3 types
            Bipolar 1
            Bipolar 2
            cyclothymia

            another thing too is that many Bipolars have other conditions.....for instance,many of them have ADHD....there is significant high comorbidity of Bipolar and ADHD......the symptoms overlap
            many ADHD adults are misdiagnosed ADHD....many Bipolar children are misdiagnosed ADHD. ........but many do have both
            a lot of these people self medicate with drugs,alcohol

            BTW.....experts disagree what Albert Einstein had.....some believed that he was Dyslexic, some believed he was AD/HD, some believed that he had Aspergers or high functioning Autism

            I don't like to speculate about people...especially dead people.....so I am not going to comment about it.

            It is also known that his son was schizophrenic.


            btw.....if you read about neurodivergent people in relationships, you will find that many of them do have significant problems in relating to others and have problems in their relationships. ........neurodivergents have to work harder and put more effort to be functional in relationships......their speech problems,auditory processing problems,visual processing problems,coordination problems, problems with understanding emotional/social cues, hypersensitivity/sensory integration issues,overly emotional,disorganization,and/or memory problems,dependency,low self esteem can really be a factor in problems with relationships

            like I said before, it's common for a neurodivergent person to be seen as having psychiatric disorder because people can't relate to their issues.

            Emotional Problems in Adults with Learning Disabilities by Sam Goldstein, Ph.D.
            www.ldanatl.org/aboutld/ad...otional.asp

            Top 5 Emotional Difficulties of People with Learning Disabilities
            Some people with learning disabilities have isolated difficulties in reading, writing or mathematics. However, most people with learning disabilities have more than one area of difficulty. Dr. Larry Silver asserts that "learning disabilities are life disabilities". He writes, “The same disabilities that interfere with reading, writing, and arithmetic also will interfere with sports and other activities, family life, and getting along with friends." (Silver, 1998)
            Typically, students with LD have other major difficulties in one or more of the following areas: motor coordination, time management,attention,organizational skills, processing speed, Social skills needed to make friends and maintaining relationships, emotional maturation, verbal expression,memory
            ldpride.net/emotions.htm

            This gives some advice to neurodivergents to help them in relationships. I try to follow the advice,and it helps.


            Being a Spouse/Partner With LD
            www.ncld.org/content/view/419/407/

            Dealing with Learning Disabilities in Relationships By: Brita Miller (1999)
            www.ldonline.org/article/6007

            • Re: Case example....

              Sun, February 10, 2008 - 4:41 PM
              catmeow if you have so many arround you with this issue you are more likely to be able to find a common chart issue than most of us out here are

              And i would suggest that you might have something within you that has been opened by dealing with that kind of energy in your life by having dealt with it so much And i would look at trying to work on that instead of looking to astrology to warn you preemptively. I don"t think it will warn you. The mixes of aspects for mental illness in the charts I've seen are so contradictory to what people have said here. (My best friend who was bi-polar had everything in aries and taurus for example)and as I said before......anyway,

              I am not saying it is your fault you are getting involved with psychos, what I am saying is that once someone has been opened in a particular way by certain interactions with others those pathways take work to close.
              Until they close, they are detectable on subtle levels by people with the types of psychosis or ways of attacking people (cases as they may be) and exploited.

              You will have more success being proactive than being avoidant. If you want references to people that could help you get started, or to more information email me and Ill see what I can do.
              • Re: Case example....

                Sun, February 10, 2008 - 4:44 PM
                sorry I though it was you at the top who started this thread
                whatever, I probably should not be on this thread it is not the way i am going with astrology at all
                and I think some people on here are being total self centered assholes.......


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