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The Aquarius Run Amock - Anders Behring-Breivik Birth Chart

topic posted Tue, August 2, 2011 - 8:42 PM by  ENIAD
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Posted here but with a midnight hour of birth. Not accurate yet but I see a pattern emerging. Do you?

astronuts.tribe.net/photos/7...a53c70ec4
posted by:
ENIAD
Montreal
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  • I thought about more or less the same thing when I learned he's an Aquarius.

    Sad typical case of an Aquarius gone wrong.

    Fixed on unhealthy ideas, and a lethal, distructive desire to "save the world" (whether or not the world wants saving, that's not important). Of course, his heavy dissasociatoin allows him to separate emotion from his actions, so he doesn't feel guilty at all or anything (or at least that's what he says).
  • Unsu...
     
    I don't think the link is correct.
    • Unsu...
       
      www.astrotheme.com/celestar/portrait.php
      Here's one from astrotheme, no hour of birth (either).
      • That was dumb, sorry.

        Here is the right link to the midnight birth chart :www.elsaelsa.com/wp-conten...reivik.gif

        It is from astro dispatch: www.astrodispatch.com/2011/07...breivik/
        • I tried to look for a more accurate chart and stumbled upon this interesting psychological piece: spoiledchildrenofdivorce.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/bad-children-of-divorce-anders-behring-breivik/ which lists transits from his birth.

          It is an interesting point and perhaps little-known fact that Marc Lépine, the author of the polytechnic massacre in Montreal who killed fourteen women "fighting feminism" also had an estranged father. Lépine was born Gamil Rodrigue Liass Gharbi, in Montreal, the son of a Canadian nurse and an Algerian-born businessman who was abusive and contemptuous of women and who became totally estranged from his Canadian children.
          The spontaneous comments of some women I knew at the time was "Look daddy what I did" when they caught Lépine's face in the news.

          Just a psychological snippet.
          • I think that's such a ridiculous defense. Many, MANY people come from a dysfunctional family with either mommy or daddy issues (and I'm including myself there, just check out my Sun and its aspects). You may feel alienated, unloved, unwanted, misunderstood... Many people OF ALL signs have family backgrounds like that.

            But that doesn't mean that gives them the right to go and shoot as many peple as they like.

            That's selfish, stupid and completely unjustified, no matter how much of a "stranged father" they had. I mean, please. I know, psychologically, that may give a clue to his personality, like you said, ENIAD, and I'm not trying to deny that. What I'm arguing about is how stupid that is ("Oh, the relationship between daddy and I sucks, so I'm gonna go and kill everyone!"), and trying to excuse what someone said in that.

            He did what he did because he was dumb, selfish and couldn't deal with whatever cards life gave him. That's a weak person, and a weak one gone severely wrong. No justification whatsoever.

            PS - Sorry if I sounded too... I don't know. I fired up.
            • Unsu...
               

              <I think that's such a ridiculous defense. Many, MANY people come from a dysfunctional family with either mommy or daddy issues (and I'm including myself there, just check out my Sun and its aspects). You may feel alienated, unloved, unwanted, misunderstood... Many people OF ALL signs have family backgrounds like that.

              But that doesn't mean that gives them the right to go and shoot as many peple as they like.

              That's selfish, stupid and completely unjustified, no matter how much of a "stranged father" they had. I mean, please. I know, psychologically, that may give a clue to his personality, like you said, ENIAD, and I'm not trying to deny that. What I'm arguing about is how stupid that is ("Oh, the relationship between daddy and I sucks, so I'm gonna go and kill everyone!"), and trying to excuse what someone said in that.>



              What is it about Jewish and Arab children that privileges the first and spurns the second in the speeches of President Barack Obama, let alone in the Western media more generally? Are Jewish children smarter, prettier, whiter? Are they deserving of sympathy and solidarity, denied to Arab children, because they are innocent and unsullied by the guilt of their parents, themselves often referred to as "the children of Israel"? Or, is it that Arab children are dangerous, threatening, guilty, even dark and ugly, a situation that can only lead to Arabopaedophobia - the Western fear of Arab children? english.aljazeera.net/indepth...291.html
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              The children born now under the dramatic and increasing influence of Aquarius come to us with expanded powers, but if we do not listen to and encourage them, their capacities will atrophy. As with the muscles of our body, failure to exercise our powers limits the growth of those powers. A child kept in a seat will never learn to walk, a child hindered from running will never gain speed and endurance. Similarly, a child constantly told that what he sees are just meaningless dreams or daydreams, constantly told that such-and-such is impossible, will never reach the limits of his vision or reach beyond what is believed possible. . . .

              The children arriving now have no conception of what is or is not impossible. That makes them especially well suited to lead us beyond the limits of what we believe to be possible, into whole new realms.

              In this way, our children are our teachers as much as our students, especially now. It is said that children choose their parents as they come into this world from a state of unity with the universal spirit, returning to this plane at exactly the place, at exactly the precise moment, and with exactly the people they want or should be with. They come to teach and to learn. Denying them the chance to do so limits the chances of their completing the lesson they came for, as well as limiting the chances of our learning ours.
              adishakti.org/new_age_children.htm
              • So what does that got to do with what I said?

                (I'm asking because you quoted my whole comment)
                • Unsu...
                   

                  I stopped believing believing in the use of zodiac signs and houses, and so I only focused on the aspects
                  I just use zodiac signs for reference points to show aspects

                  I looked at his chart using noon time


                  What I find interesting is his Sun oppose Makemake with 1'13 orb
                  Makemake is a transneptunian dwarf planet named after the Easter Island Rapanui Creation God.
                  It is the 3rd largest dwarf planet after Pluto and Eris.
                  It may have something to do with creativity,fertility,male reproduction
                  it may also have something to do with minority ethnic groups too


                  His Haumea is conjunct/oppose the Lunar Nodes with '07 orb
                  Haumea is a transneptunian dwarf planet named after the Hawaiian Fertility Creation Goddess.
                  It is the 4th largest dwarf planet after Pluto,Eris,and Makemake
                  It may have something to do with creativity,fertility,female reproductive
                  as well as branching off (think of family trees, haplogroups,subclades)
                  it may be associated with minority ethnic groups too

                  In Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude),
                  he has Sun quincunx Haumea with 44 minute orb


                  That's his chart from the 21st Century perspective



                  I looked at regular stuff from the Harmonic perspective
                  starting off with 15 degree for conjunction, and then decreasing the orb in proportion to harmonic
                  that would mean 7.5 degree for opposition, 5 degree for trine, and so on


                  He has a conjunction of Sun,Mercury,Mars

                  Sun conjunct Mercury - 3'19 - ego merge with thoughts
                  Sun conjunct Mars - 5'30 - ego merge with passion

                  Mercury conjunct Mars - 8'50 - thoughts merge with passion

                  Venus trine Saturn - 2'45 - love in harmony with structure,discipline,conservatism

                  Mars square Uranus - 2'16 - assertion in friction with independence,change,liberalism
                  Mars sextile Neptune - 1'26 - assertion in support with idealism, inspiration,imagination


                  In Declinations, he has Sun parallel Mercury with 38 minute orb,
                  Therefore was born with Sun-Mercury occultation (Sun and Mercury both in conjunction and parallel) this would really indicate a strong emphasis on the ego merging with the thoughts......it can be hard for him to be object and see different points of view with the possibility of egotistical thinking




                  He was born during a Sun-Earth-Sedna Node alignment
                  Sun oppose/conjunct Geocentric Sedna Nodes
                  Earth conjunct/oppose Heliocentric Sedna Nodes

                  Sedna is a transneptunian dwarf planet/candidate named after the Inuit Ocean Goddess/Ruler of the Underworld.
                  It may be associated with environmental awareness,care-taking for humanity, victimization, abuse as well as marine life

                  the Sedna Nodes would be collective karmic Sedna themes


                  just looking at noon birth time

                  Sun in 24'11 Aquarius
                  conjunct Geocentric South Sedna Node in 24'18 Leo
                  oppose Geocentric North Sedna Node in 24'19 Aquarius

                  Earth in 24'11 Leo
                  oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Sedna Nodes in 24'18 Leo/Aquarius







                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Sun in 24'11 Aquarius
                    conjunct Geocentric South Sedna Node in 24'18 Leo
                    oppose Geocentric North Sedna Node in 24'19 Aquarius


                    correction:
                    conjunct Geocentric South Sedna Node in 24'19 Leo
                    oppose Geocentric North Sedna Node in 24'18 Aquarius
                • Unsu...
                   
                  @Luis
                  <So what does that got to do with what I said?
                  (I'm asking because you quoted my whole comment)>

                  I thought your post was informative and thoughtful.
                  I thought my post related to what you said. In the age of aquarius news of mass killing of children by adults is not new news but pervasive news.

                  When I first heard the news of Anders Behring-Breivik killing children I immediately thought oh the Norwegians are experiencing a life of death and destruction like Palestine children. An adult is killing a child. Why? What is the role of family, clan, group history? Why and how do DNA and oral tradition effect family, clan, group relations for years?



                  Are parents and leaders monsters in the house that children need to kill in order to survive? Or that parents see their children as monsters. Why not love? Why violence. Why Waco, why clan killing, why war killing, why?

                  Why do soldiers no longer fight soldier but kill children. Natural rites of passage that children are being denied or their rite of passage being direct from youth to soldier. Is it nature is it nurture: astrology model? I agree with your point that individual will and choice decide where a person is to be evil or good. Why Anders Behring-Breivik did what he did is the question. Not why did his birth chart kill children to bring about political, social, government change.

                  Thank you, Luis. Your post got me thinking that is the all of it. I think it is ok if I read public posts and think. I wrote how I do because I think in patterns and associations. Many tribers say they do not understand what i write. You are no different. Maybe sometime you will want to re-read my post, think, question and perhaps your question "So what does that got to do with what I said" you will answer. :)

                  My writing makes sense to me and I write only for me. But does Aquarius rising makes me weird, eccentric, and understood by me but not understood by other people? A few times in my life guys have said ... "When I first met you I thought you were stupid as hell but now over the years I understand you are a genius."

                  But if there is one sign that must be said to cause good genius it would be Aquarius! :-D




            • Unsu...
               
              "I think that's such a ridiculous defense. Many, MANY people come from a dysfunctional family with either mommy or daddy issues (and I'm including myself there, just check out my Sun and its aspects). You may feel alienated, unloved, unwanted, misunderstood... Many people OF ALL signs have family backgrounds like that.

              But that doesn't mean that gives them the right to go and shoot as many peple as they like. "


              Good point. I am like that.
              I never knew biological father. I grew up with a stepfather who I haven't seen since 1990 which was the year that I graduated from high school. My mother broke up with him around that time.


              I believe in helping people instead of hurting people.

              I use my past experiences to help others like creating a neurodiversity group and helping my fellow neurodivergents.
              I'd like to have a career as a 21st Century Multidimensional Astrologer and help neurodivergents in that way. It would be actually helping people that can relate to labels like Indigo,Crystal,lightworker,Earth Angel.


              as for the zodiac signs
              I don't believe in the validity of them any more.
              They are relative and arbitrary. It depends on the system and the culture.

              There used to be 18 zodiac signs that the Babylonians used before they changed to 12.

              Sidereal Zodiac existed before the Tropical Zodiac. The Vedic Astrologers use a Sidereal Zodiac which isn't a Constellation Zodiac which has 13 constellations that the Sun appears to pass through. There are actually more constellations, that heavenly bodies pass through. Actually, Klaudio was right about that stuff, and even thought of as a weirdo for talking about certain placements in constellations have nothing to do with zodiac signs.

              Ptolemy explained his reasons behind the use of the Tropical Zodiac , and it was about the seasons
              but he ignored the Southern Hemisphere

              The tropical Zodiac doesn't apply to people born in Southern Hemisphere. The tropical Zodiac is a Northern Hemisphere season based zodiac.



              the zodiac isn't really scientific. it's based on religion.
              think of the Babylonian astronomer-priests

              aspects have more of scientific basis because of the geometry and harmonics
              • "Ptolemy explained his reasons behind the use of the Tropical Zodiac , and it was about the seasons but he ignored the Southern Hemisphere "

                I disagree. He indeed used the seasons and arranged the zodiac according to them, but it's not like the seasons are what give people their personalities and such. It's the signs (not constellations), sort of "energy fields" if you like, and they remain constant wherever you are. That's why a Leo born in Norway in August will be similar to a Leo born in Chile in the same month (generally speaking, of course). So I think it's kind of unecessary to talk about "southern hemisphere astrology" when nothing really changes (astro-wise) whether you're in the North Pole or the South Pole. I do get your point, though, but, personally speaking, I wouldn't worry too much about that ("southern hemisphere astrology" or how astrology is "fixed" to the seasons). That's just my opinion.
                • "The tropical Zodiac doesn't apply to people born in Southern Hemisphere. The tropical Zodiac is a Northern Hemisphere season based zodiac. "

                  Oh, my god. I hadn't seen that. So, what, an Aquarius from Australia will behave like a Leo from Russia? And so on?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Sun in Aqaurius is not cold in the Southern Hemisphere as it is in the Northern Hemisphere.
                    After all, Sun in Aquarius occurs in part of winter in the Northern Hemisphere
                    but it occurs in part of summer in the Southern Hemisphere


                    In his book, Tetrabiblos, Ptolemy explained tropical zodiac in regards to the Northern Hemisphere seasons without the knowledge of the Southern Hemisphere.


                    If I was born in Southern Hemisphere, I'd be skeptical of the Tropical Zodiac.

                    There are some Australian astrologers that have issues with Tropical Zodiac because of the same issue that I was making a point about.
                    • "Sun in Aqaurius is not cold in the Southern Hemisphere as it is in the Northern Hemisphere.
                      After all, Sun in Aquarius occurs in part of winter in the Northern Hemisphere
                      but it occurs in part of summer in the Southern Hemisphere "

                      So what? What does it matter? An Aquarius is an Aquarius because the "energy field" (sign) the Sun "apparently" goes through from Jan 20 to Feb 18 -roughly- has certain, particular traits that are different from the rest of the other 11 signs.

                      Aquarius are Aquarius because of that, and not because they were born born in the middle of winter and it was cold. How nonsensical is that?

                      It's like saying Taurus are so full of inertia because their constellation is a bull and they're so slow. Huh? If Taurus were not a bull, but an ant, "the constellation of the Ant" they would have the exact same characteristics.

                      Same applies here, whether you're born in the middle of winter -Northen Hermisphere- or in the middle of summer. You ARE an Aquarius for the mere fact you were born in a date within the range associated with Aquarius. Period.

                      Anyway, why don't we grab someone from the Southern Hemisphere, ask for his or her sun sign, cast the chart, interpret it and ask on a scale from 1 to 10 how much does he or she identify with it?

                      This is nonsense. The zodiac is based on the elliptic divided in 12 equal parts, not on the seasons and certainly not on constellations. The tropical zodiac being "fixed" on seasons hypothesis is pretty much refuted by randomly taking people from both hemispheres and asking them astro questions. Also, as you get near to the Equator, seasons sort of stop existing, and it's summer all year long. On both sides of the Equator. So, what, people from Ecuador or Venezuela or Zaire don't have a sun sign now?

                      They're Signless people?

                      Enough discussion has been given on the relevance of the sidereal zodiac, and the difference between the tropical zodiac and constellations... Most of us already know what's that about...

                      And, one final comment. For the time being. AFTER ALL, it IS the Earth moving around the Sun (not the other way around). The zodiac describes the Sun's movement through the elliptic, but it is really the Earth the one that's going along it. Obviously, the whole of it goes from one sign to another... it's not like, just because it's slightly tilted the southern hemisphere remains completely outside the sign it's traveling through. It's, like, the whole package, the whole planet is within a sign in a certain moment... So, again, no need to talk about "southern hemisphere astrology" because there is not such a thing. We're all in this together, regardless if you live in Iceland or New Zealand.
  • Sun/Mars conjunct squaring Uranus is definitely interesting. And I wouldn't overlook the Moon conjunct Saturn in Virgo... emotional need for some form of "perfection", order, and predictability... could definitely make for some xenophobia, which I don't see Aquarius producing. And the sun's sextile and trine to Neptune and Pluto could make for some delusion and obsessiveness.
    • Unsu...
       
      I've avoided reading articles about this dude until now, but you've all got the better of me here. He even had plastic surgery to get closer to the "Aryan ideal"? Lol... What a nutjob.
      • Unsu...
         

        yeah
        what a nightjob
        I wouldn't say that he is mentally ill though. I wouldn't want to insult mentally ill people by comparing him to them.

        I find it hilarious that for all his nationalism, he wasn't even born in Norway. He was born in another country.
        He just seemed to want Norway to only be for Europeans and Christians only.

        We have a lot of people like that here in USA. It's very sad.

        There is nothing wrong with diversity.
        It's intolerance of diversity that is the problem.
        • Unsu...
           
          "yeah
          what a nightjob"

          I meant
          nutjob
          I got a little dyslexic
          hehehehe
          • Unsu...
             
            Lol ray.

            Oh I meant no offense towards the mentally ill; I diagnostically classify myself. I suppose I should choose my words more carefully, but too much PCness does my head in. Though since I do draw the line at terms such as "retard" and "spastic", I should probably include this one too. I'll call him a dribble dick from this point on.

            You are always so careful and precise with your communication - mercury/saturn?
            • Unsu...
               

              from page 4
              Cosmobiology for the 21st Century by Eleonora Kimmel.

              This was Claudius Ptolemy's reasons for adopting the tropical zodiac.

              "The Zodiac being a circle has no natural beginning, so the sign of the Ram which begins from Vernal Equinox is taken as the beginning of the twelve, and as if the Zodiac were a living being, they make it begin with the excessive moisture of spring and make the other seasons follow, because all creatures in their first youth have an excess of moisture and like the spring, are still delicate and growing." ----- Tetrabiblos 1, 10.

              Nothing could be less scientific than these words of the great scientist. He states clearly that Cancer owes its position of influence to the fact that it follows the summer solstice. But what happens in the Southern Hemisphere, where Cancer follows the winter solstice? Logically, the influence of Cancer must be replaced by that of Capricorn! Ptolemy's genius in devising the tropical zodiac borders on the amazing because he had no knowledge of the Southern Hemisphere!
            • Unsu...
               
              Lol ray.

              "Oh I meant no offense towards the mentally ill; I diagnostically classify myself. I suppose I should choose my words more carefully, but too much PCness does my head in. Though since I do draw the line at terms such as "retard" and "spastic", I should probably include this one too. I'll call him a dribble dick from this point on. "

              Oh..I know that you didn't mean any offense, Nina.
              Heck...I even agree with you that he's a nutjob.
              I was just saying that I wouldn't want to compare him to the mentally ill.
              I don't refer to the mentally ill as nutjobs or crazy.

              same here.....I hate the word, "retard" because of my own experiences of being called that word when I was in special education even though I have above average intelligence. I haven't really heard the word, "spastic", but I wouldn't use that word either because of the negative meaning behind it.

              I'd call him a "dribble dick" too

              Heck...I'd even call him a "Hitlerish piece of shit"

              hhahahahaha

              You are always so careful and precise with your communication - mercury/saturn?
              • Unsu...
                 

                "You are always so careful and precise with your communication - mercury/saturn?"

                yep

                Mercury contraparallel Saturn
                That's like Mercury oppose Saturn (I actually have the aspect in Declination Longitude Equivalent Chart)

                I actually have Saturn contraparallel Mercury-Venus-Neptune
                That's like Saturn oppose Mercury-Venus-Neptune (I actually have the configuration in Declination Longitude Equivalent Chart)

                Mercury-Venus-Neptune can make mistakes in connection to nonlinear thought process , but Saturn in contraparallel is my compensatory communication mechanisms in the form of minimizing communication errors.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Here is more about the seasons

                  This is from an Australian Astrologer


                  The Problem
                  The Zodiac as we know it, is a system of dividing up the portion of sky through which the Sun, Moon and planets seem to travel, known as the ecliptic. This system was originally invented in countries in earth's Northern Hemisphere, where astronomers named the constellations according to environmental observations linked to the seasons. For example, the constellation that the sun seemed to pass through every year at the beginning of Spring was named Aries - The Ram, because "the sun breaks up the frozen earth as a ram attacks with its horns" Similarly "...In the month of Taurus oxen work to prepare the ripening of the corn". (please see full quote from Rupert Gleadow's book The Origin Of The Zodiac below).

                  The problem about using this Northern Hemisphere derived system in countries of the Southern Hemisphere, such as Australia, South America and South Africa, is that the Aries to Pisces signs that we know, do not fit the seasons, which are of course reversed. This problem becomes accentuated when we try to use the Zodiac astrologically, overlaying the original seasonal and agricultural measuring system with occult correspondences. For example, the sign Capricorn in the Tropical Zodiac (please see explanation of the Sidereal and Tropical Zodiacs below) starts at the Winter Solstice, around December 21st, in the Northern Hemisphere, and this sign has profound occult and mythological associations with the constriction or limiting of light associated with the sign's Saturn ruler. The sun is said to die in this sign, and then be reborn after three days as light from the physical sun increases. This is perhaps why the Christian church instigated the celebration of Christmas, the birth of Christ or "light" at the old pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice. But in the Southern Hemisphere, December 21st coincides with height of summer, or the Summer Solstice, after which the light from the sun decreases, not increases as in the North. Even though many Australians and South Africa still celebrate Christmas at this time, we can see how the logical and esoteric association to the season is completely lost.

                  There are several solutions to this problem which astrologers have come up with, including the ideas one of the last century's great astrologers, Dane Rudhyar, and these are discussed below. I have taken the ideas of Rudhyar a bit further, combining them with the idea of a 6-sign Zodiac, also sometimes known as a "dual sign", "double sign", "bipolar" or "Mirror Zodiac" to try to solve the problem of the seasonal mismatch.

                  Derivation Of The Tropical Zodiac
                  The Tropical Zodiac, which is the Zodiac which most astrologers in Europe and America use when calculating birth charts/horoscopes, was invented by the astronomer Claudius Ptolemy in the 1st century AD. Ptolemy's motivation for inventing this Zodiac, instead of using the older Sidereal Zodiac which corresponded more closely to the constellations, was to solve the problem of Precession, which is the gradual movement of the equinoxes westward along the ecliptic relative to the fixed stars. It is caused by the shift in the orientation of Earth’s axis of rotation, rather like a wobbling top, which traces out a cone a cycle of approximately 26,000 years called a Great or Platonic year. Ptolemy placed the 12 signs of the old Zodiac into a theoretical circle of measurement based on the earth's Equinoxes and Solstices.


                  How Did The Zodiac Signs Get Their Names?
                  The idea of dividing the path of the planets through the Zodiac into 360 degrees originated independently in Babylon, Egypt and China, and is presumed to be based on the length of the year, which brings the sky back to the same point after 365 days. The division of the year into twelve is probably because twelve is a more convenient number than thirteen or fourteen months, which occurred in countries where the calendar was determined by the moon. All months are, however, originally moon-periods, and in Islamic countries the month still begins with the first appearance of the new crescent moon after sunset. In Rupert Gleadow's book The Origin Of The Zodiac, the author quotes a 9th century monk by the name of Helpericus, who speculated on the origin of the names of the Zodiac signs:

                  “Aquarius and Pisces are explained by the rainy season, Leo by the heat, and Libra by the equinox; in Cancer the Sun begins to move backwards (like a crab). The Scorpion’s sting and the Archer’s arrow are both compared to the sting of hail-showers, and Capricorn is the lower turning point of the sun because goats graze uphill. The Ram, however, was either named because the sun breaks up the frozen earth as a ram attacks with its horns, or else because rams, having slept on the their left side all the winter, now start to sleep on their right. In the month of Taurus oxen work to prepare the ripening of the corn, but the explanation of Gemini is an incoherent allusion to Castor and Pollux. Virgo finally is so called because the earth is exhausted and no longer bears any fruit – the transition from the pretty girl to the old maid on the way.” We can see how these names intimately fit the seasonal changes in weather and agriculture.

                  In Ptolemy’s treatise on celestial mechanics, The Tetrabiblos, the astronomer says “The Zodiac, being a circle, has no natural beginning so the sign of the Ram, which begins from the Vernal Equinox is taken as the beginning of the twelve; and, as if the zodiac were a living being, they make it begin with the excessive moisture of spring and make the other seasons follow, because all creatures in their first youth have an excess of moisture and , like the spring, are still delicate and growing.” (Tetrabiblos I, 10)

                  Like Ptolemy, most astrologers of the past thousand years have lived in the Northern Hemisphere. In the Southern Hemisphere, where earth's seasons are opposite to those in the Northern Hemisphere, Ptolemy’s reasoning of applying Aries, The Ram to Spring would not apply, because in April, when it is Spring in the Northern Hemisphere and the days are getting longer, it is autumn in the Southern Hemisphere and the days are getting shorter. This problem has been largely ignored by astrologers, except by a few brave ones who have addressed it.

                  One of those astrologers was Dane Rudhyar. In his book Astrological Timing, The Transition To The New Age, available for view at the Khaldea Archival Project website: Rudhyar addresses this problem thusly:

                  “What is the solution of the problem in so far as an astrology based on the tropical-seasonal zodiac is concerned? The simpler solution is that Aries becomes Libra in the south hemisphere. Southern-hemispheric birth-charts should therefore have all their zodiacal signs reversed, so that if a person in Buenos Aires is born in early August his Sun is in Aquarius."


                  Is there any scientific evidence linking human personality to season of birth?
                  Yes. In ground-breaking research , Dr. Douglas McMahon at Vanderbilt University has shown that our biological clocks may be set at the time we are born. It has been demonstrated that individuals are more prone to certain diseases, for example schizophrenia, for example if they are born in the winter or early spring, and this might be because their mothers lacked an essential nutrient while they were developing in the womb, or be due to the flu virus, more common in cold weather. This scientific evidence is very similar to observations made by astrologers for thousands of years; astrologers have known that individuals born in the winter, under the measuring device sign of Tropical Capricorn are often cautious, frugal, disciplined and rather pessimistic compared to their summer-born fellow human beings. Do these traits reflect the harsh, cold conditions of many winter environments, where parents have to work harder to nourish their children then in summer, when plant food is more available? A summer baby, born during July in the Northern Hemisphere, would have more time devoted to him from his parents, and more food, so therefore might develop more of what we know as a Cancerian, family minded personality, with more time to devote to his inner, emotional needs rather than constantly defending him or herself from a harsh environment. The science of epigenetics is also showing us that early environment can actually change the gene make-up of an individual.


                  To Sum Up...
                  In order to make Southern Hemisphere horoscopes reflective of the seasons, which Ptolemy intended, we need to reverse the Tropical Zodiac horoscope for those regions. A logical way to do this is by having a six-sign bipolar Zodiac as suggested above. This adaptive Zodiac would also be in harmony with modern scientific evidence that shows that personality is dependent on season of birth


                  www.angelfire.com/music2/al...odiac.html
    • I wondered about posting Behring-Breivik's chart, giving him more exposure and maybe should have not. Maybe there is such a thing as criminal astrology or perhaps his case is beyond astrology.
      Had I been Scandinavian I would not have at all so it is not just logical but emotional.

      The post was not is a defence, and surely not an excuse, just an attempt of explaining the unexplained.

      I come from a family so nuclear it self-destructed long ago but I never have taken it out on innocents. Just the opposite.
      Many other people do come from dismal background and it is a choice what we do with it.

      SOMETHING ROTTEN IN THE FIELD OF JUSTICE
      I read that Behring-Breivik's lawyer is trying to get him off on insanity defence plea but that the Norwegian law is more strict than the Canadian law and he may not get away with it. We just had a cardiologist acquitted on plea of insanity who had killed both his children by knifing them repeatedly 40 times after he had found his separated wife with a boyfriend and told her that he would get back at her. Oh, he had swallowed window-cleaner as a suicide attempt saying that he was too coward to use the knife on himself.
      Not bad for a heart doctor.
      He's now exonerated.

      And what about the Casey Anthony case who got off totally free in the States?

      The local doctor case - Guy Turcotte - is going into appeal at the cost of millions to tax-payers on the ground that the judge mislead the jury. The presiding judge of the Nicole Brown OJ Simpson trial showed up on television literally crying on Casey Anthony's behalf. Wtf is wrong with judges?
      The local public opinion is extremely dissatisfied with the Guy Turcotte case and there are talks about reforming criminal law. The Casey Anthony case is also going into appeal, I hear.

      These laws were edited during happier simpler times and carried hope of reforming criminals. Hardened criminal with no humanity will not reform and we must protect the rest of the population who are innocent. There are antiquated Christian notions about Mens Rea or criminal intent. If you wipe out numerous human lives, whatever your intent, society retribution should be the same.

      Behring-Breivik is a dreg (I won't even add of humanity), ugly inside and out. At least Lépine had the decency to commit suicide but Casey Anthony is enjoying the good life, "the Dolce Vita" that she had tattooed on her after her daughter was dead. She only had to create a reasonable doubt in the juror's mind and her lawyer went all over the place creating bizarro scenarios that further destroyed and ruined her her family and she's now Scott free enjoying the good life, getting many propositions.

      The magnitude of the Norwegian slaughter may prompt a justice overhaul.
      • ...while daddy the diplomat is whining about his son's should having committed suicide and that his name will be linked and soiled forever about someone he totally cut off his life at the age of sixteen .
        At least Jeffrey Dahmer's dad, realizing what his son ultimately was asked the police that he be arrested long before the events that made the son famous.

        I don't know the whole family story. It could be grim but "Look Daddy, no hands. Machine guns"


        Some party at the embassy it must have been.
        • ...Virgo finally is so called because the earth is exhausted and no longer bears any fruit – the transition from the pretty girl to the old maid on the way.”

          There is diminishing Sun to continue the growth cycle. The earth is not exhausted and Virgo who is not an old maid but a bountiful mother has arrived.

          This guy-writer should wash his values with soap.
          • "This guy-writer should wash his values with soap."

            Exactly. I would've thought the degrees ranging from 180° to 219° of the ecliptic were named "Virgo" because during the sun's apparent travel through that specific zone the constellation of "Virgo" happened to be nearby.

            I hate it when people write about half-truths and then go around trying to convince everybody else that's THE truth on stuff.
            • Unsu...
               


              "Exactly. I would've thought the degrees ranging from 180° to 219° of the ecliptic were named "Virgo" because during the sun's apparent travel through that specific zone the constellation of "Virgo" happened to be nearby. "

              My Sun in 5'20 tropical Scorpio is in the constellation of Virgo.
              I was born on October 29th, and that's the 2nd to the last day that Sun is in Virgo constellaltion before entering Libra constellation.
              I have Sun in Libra in Sidereal Zodiac.

              Of course, Sidereal Zodiac is not the same as the constellations.
              but try telling that to Sidereal Astrologers! heh
              • "Of course, Sidereal Zodiac is not the same as the constellations. but try telling that to Sidereal Astrologers! heh "

                Yeah, I know, lol. Actually, the constellation of Virgo is HUGE. I mean, it really is. The sun's apparent movement through it lasts for like 40, 45 days. While its travel through Scorpio is really really short, like 1 week. Scorpio barely touches the ecliptic, yet, it was given "rulership" (for the lack of a better word) over the days between October 23 and November 21. Why? Because it was the nearest constellation the Sun was travelling through when these days started. Anybody can know about this better (comparison between tropical zodiac and the "real constellations" zodiac) just by looking at astronomy (and not astrology, for a change).

                Also, another contradiction from the sidereal astrologers. If the sidereal zodiac is based on "the actual constellations," then why don't they consider Ophiuchus if it's ON the ecliptic? I mean, it really is; the Sun visits it in its apparent ecliptic from November 29 to December 17. Obviously, either they're entirely wrong or they never really "catched up" with science.

                PS - I'm not saying Ophiuchus is the 13th sign or whatever. We already know there are 12 signs in the tropical zodiac, blah blah. When I mentioned Ophiuchus I was referring to constellations (different to signs).
                • "It's referring to the precession of the Equinoxes.
                  When Vernal Equinox moves into the Constellation of Aquarius, then the Age of Aquarius is supposed to begin "

                  Yeah, and that's astronomy. The Vernal Equinox was already in late Aries when astrology was "invented" (like 1,500 BC). Then it moved into Pisces, and, currently, it's in last degrees. The Age of Aquarius will "officially" begin sometime around just after 2100 (anybody not sure of that can look that up by themselves; it's an astronomical event that's scientifically recorded: the precession of... you know, the vernal equinox).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Oops, it's actually called "precession of the equinoxes," or "axial precession"

                    Just look at this baby, it's wonderful. It's a graphic of when did the Vernal Equinox begin through the ages, starting in 4000 BC to 2000 AD

                    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...x_path.png

                    I think it's funny how in year 0, when Jesus was born (supposedly) Spring just began starting in Pisces. And isn't a fish one of the symbols of Jesus? According to this, the Spring Equinox goes 1° backwards in the ecliptic every 72 years. Wow. So we're really, really in the last degrees of the constellation of Pisces, and of this age.

                    Is that why everything has to do with "the end of the world" nowadays? Silly. It's the end of the current age, not of the world ;-)
          • Thanks Nina,

            I took Law and am a bit of a firebrand on a mellow day but hopefully will be dispatched away from tribe on the way to work soon.

            It just gets my goat to see a bunch of everyday citizens bleating about the blatant lack of justice and watching their tax dollar pay for this unrequited show.
            If it doesn't work, you change it-dammit!
      • Unsu...
         
        I am glad you posted it Ediad, as it makes for an interesting discussion (even if I'm reluctant to contribute much). Anything involving this fellow is bound to be contentious, but if approached sensitively, I do think that an astrological assessment based on his natal chart could garner some fascinating insights. Of course that is not to say that his chart reflects someone who was destined to behave in this way, but that it rather highlights the various energy configurations he was given to work with. How he chose to use (or abuse) what was given to him is another matter. I am interested to see peoples interpretations of his transits surrounding the event.
    • Unsu...
       
      True, exio. Aquarius is not the kind of sign to produce xenophobia. What strikes me most of all about this chart is how ordinary it is. There is no way you can tell from this chart that we're dealing with a serial killer. He doesn't even have an unbearable load of transits going on. There's millions of people with charts like this, and they all have found their place in society without having to mass murder. So it must have been something else, I suppose.

      • Unsu...
         

        the dude's chart is not ordinary

        The dude has Sun oppose Makemake within 1 1/2 degree

        He was born during a Sun-Earth-Sedna Node alignment which happens every year on a certain date
        but Sun-Makemake opposition in alignment with that alignment doesn't happen every year on a certain date

        I already mentioned that in a post

        Makemake and Sedna are big transneptunian objects discovered in the 21st Century. Makemake is classed as a dwarf planet along with Pluto,Eris,Haumea,and Ceres.
        If Astrologer would have done his chart as a baby, he/she wouldn't have known about his aspects


        There is a great evolutionary intensification that he has.


        This is coming from somebody that has a very strong 21st Century transneptunian dwarf planet/candidate influence.
        I have had my own traumatic experience. I had my own inner demons to deal with. However, I prefer to help others and not hurt them.

        Free will is the ultimate factor.

        I really don't believe that zodiac signs even matter at all. That's just me though.
        Every one of my personal planet zodiac sign placements can be explained with other astrological factors without "Forer Effect" being a factor. Just one example. I have 2 Sun aspects to transneptunian dwarf planet candidate/plutinos, Ixion and Orcus. As plutinos, they are very astronomically similar to Pluto. They have 2:3 orbital resonance with Neptune like Pluto does. That's why astronomers name them after Underworld mythological characters. Astronomers have that as a naming rule.


        Let me give a little information about the planetary nodes
        that's what the Sun-Earth-Sedna Node is referring too



        The concept of the use of Planetary Nodes isn't new either.
        It was Grant Lewi that was the first pioneer of the use of Heliocentric Planetary Nodes in Astrology.
        His friend, Carl Tobey Payne was also a big time advocate of the Heliocentric Planetary Nodes.
        Dane Rudhyar also wrote about the Heliocentric Planetary Nodes. He refer to the use of them in Astrology as Orbital Astrology.
        Theodor Landscheidt was the pioneer of the use of Geocentric Planetary Nodes in Astrology.
        Zipporah Dobyns wrote "The Node Book" which included not only the lunar nodes but also the nodes of the planets and the 4 major asteroids. Of course, one of the planets (Pluto) is a dwarf planet, and one of the 4 major asteroids (Ceres) is a dwarf planet.

        Nodes aren't just referring to the Moon. What astronomers refer to as Nodes are the Lunar Nodes. The thing is that all objects have nodes. Nodes are just the intersection of the orbital planes of 2 objects. Think of the intersection of two rings. One of the intersections is ascending node aka north node, and the other is the descending node aka south node.



        According to Pamela Rowe:It is likely that Heliocentric Planetary Node contacts in your natal chart pinpoint areas where you relate to the 'world at large'. In particular, conjunctions and major aspects to the natal Ascendant and Midheaven reinforce and add new dimensions of understanding as to what is perceived as your life path.

        WORLD EVENTS AND FAMOUS PEOPLE If the theory holds water we can expect, when glancing down the list of dates when the Geocentric Sun is conjunct the individual Heliocentric Planetary Nodes, that the dates are close to pivotal world events. Also the birthdays of famous and infamous people, who made or continue to make, an impact on the group consciousness of society. The type of impact made is described by the interpretation of the particular Planetary Node.
        www.solarcharts.co.nz/T​he%20...odes.htm



        According to Dane Rudhyar:

        In the great majority of cases, planetary nodes are of no real meaning in the lives of human beings. They acquire at least potential meaning when a person, as a participant in a sociocultural whole, can be considered a mouthpiece or channel for the operation of collective forces. If the person has reached the stage of individual development at which he or she is actually conscious of what happens through his or her being, then the transpersonal level has been reached; but if there is no consciousness of being an agent of some supersocial and supercultural Power, but only a kind of unconscious mediumship the person still operates at the sociocultural level. www.khaldea.com/rudhyar​/a...s7_p1.shtml

        According to Carl Tobey Payne:"Our own statistical investigations gradually led to indications that mere mathematical points (we will supplement this term later), the planetary nodes, are more important than the planets themselves, and this was the beginning of our realization that an entirely new conception of astrology was essential, an astrology unlimited and unhampered by the dogma of modern scientific hypotheses.
        mysite.verizon.net/bonn​ieh...y.14.html

        According to Philip Sedgwick in his book , Sun At The Center:Planetary nodes in heliocentric astrology advance at a rate of about one degree per 100 years.This does not represent an effect of precession since precession is a geocentric perceptual phenomenon. The slow motion of the nodes creates a generational influence in which virtually any person born in any given century has the same nodes. What could be the fuss?The planet in contact to the node represents the personalized connection to a collective issue.The planet reveals the impetus that the individual possesses to exert an effect in a larger issue of humanity and in context of the planet’s symbolism. North Node connections induce the individual to push for advance, change, reform and progress - worst case: rebellion, malcontentand antiestablishment attitudes prevail, often polarizing the opposed force into greater manifestation; protest and resistance fail to function at any level. South planetary nodes containheritage, tradition and foundation. Contacts to the south node support such historical bases with great chauvinism. Other times, the tailing node contact represents dogma, resistance to progress,fear of advancement and the inability to adjust to technological progress. A point of equilibrium and balance must be maintained.

        According to page 20 from The Node book
        According to Zipporah Dobyns in regards to Geocentric Planetary Nodes:From Jupiter out, aspects to other features of the chart seem necessary to show significance in the sign positions of the nodes, but such aspects turn up with high frequency in the charts of world figure. Indeed it is somewhat rare to find such a person who lacks a planet or angle in the area of 18 to 25 degrees of the cardinal signs where the nodes of Pluto,Saturn,and Jupiter appear.




        Today is an exact alignment of Sun-Earth-Neptune Node
        Sun conjunct/oppose Geocentric Neptune Nodes in Leo/Aquarius
        Earth oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Neptune Nodes in Leo/Aquarius



        I was born during a very strong alignment of Sun-Earth-Eris Node myself
        Sun conjunct South Eris Node in Scorpio - '09
        Sun oppose North Eris Node in Taurus - '10
        Sun oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Nodes in Taurus/Scorpio - '10
        • Unsu...
           

          "I was born during a very strong alignment of Sun-Earth-Eris Node myself
          Sun conjunct South Eris Node in Scorpio - '09
          Sun oppose North Eris Node in Taurus - '10
          Sun oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Nodes in Taurus/Scorpio - '10"

          correction:
          Sun conjunct Geocentric South Eris Node in Scorpio - '09
          Sun oppose Geocentric North Eris Node in Taurus - '10
          Earth oppose/conjunct Heliocentric Eris Nodes in Taurus/Scorpio - '10
          • MoonSaturtn has turned up before with certainkinds of serial killer.Dahmer, Nilsn,Sutcligffe all come to mind.

            That combined with a Sun/Mercury/Mars in Aquarius could have helped with manifesting idealism with a seriouslack of empathy. He had a Mars square Uranus didn't he?-so then, there was a capacity for violence, at the very least militancy.

            I heread somewhere that his father abused him with a hoover. Anyone else heard that?
            • Good call on the moon/Saturn, Nexus.

              >That combined with a Sun/Mercury/Mars in Aquarius could have helped with manifesting idealism with a seriouslack of empathy.<

              I'm leery about the Aquarius sun and even Mars being much of a factor. The Aquarian influence would lean toward revolting for personal freedom and against an established order. He seems to be doing just the opposite... fighting to maintain an existing social order. He's extremely nationalistic, and extremely religious... neither of which Aquarius would tend toward. Which is why this is more suspect, imo:

              >He had a Mars square Uranus didn't he?<

              Yes... Mars and Sun square Uranus. The Unabomber also had a Sun/Uranus aspect... but conjunct. And with him we saw a desire to topple the existing order. But with the square, I could definitely see there being a fear of a change in your social order... like from immigrants or a foreign religion. And Mars would make that more volatile and aggressive.

              I, actually, wouldn't be surprised if Aquarius is intercepted in his chart. He was born in Oslo, so most likely has some intercepted signs. And if it were Aquarius, the Sun/Mars energy would want to express through Pisces and Capricorn... and we get what seem to be his biggest motivations... religion (Pisces) and social order (Capricorn). Although that could also be coming from elsewhere in the chart... like the social order from the Saturn/Moon conjunct.
              • 'I'm leery about the Aquarius sun and even Mars being much of a factor'

                Insofar that overemphasising the Sign is a bit of a catch-all, I would agree. I am sure rthis guy had some pretty heavy-futy midpoints to important factors in his chart. .

                However, Ihave often, also I thought Aquarius is not as well-understood as you might think. The Sign can be very similar to Scorpio ins difficulty in expressing weakness in itself and for that matter, weakness in others, in my experience. And it can be an absolute control freak.

                Yes indeed there is often social idealism, but it won't be the first time I have encountered those have this Sign strong in their chart (angle, or luminary, or stellium) for whom this social idealsm can mean anattraction towards the far Right.

                On eof my most difficult students (he was a control freak too) once spent the whole lesson trying to bring me round to the idea that genocide was a regrettable, though essential thing to do by any enlightened elite and surely I could accept that some whole classes of humans are genetically inferiot and should be exterminated for the good of the planet. I never wantedf to ask, but I knew he was born 'at the beginning of the year,' but an artists website gave his birth data as being at the end of January. I hope he just sticks to Art.

                How would you account for, say, Palin, Ayn Rand, Dick Cheney, Sarkozi, Ceaucescu, the North Korean leader and for that matter, Machiavelli, if this Sign really is all sweetness and light? Or one of the most murderous of Mafia leaders of all times, Provenzano? Someone I know very well is Provenzano's astrological twin, I did a double-take when I saw Provenzano's chart come up on a thread elsewhere, somewhere on cyberspace. The twin, as far as I know, has never been a don, though they like Frank Sinatra and is certainly very right-wing.

                To be fair, Sarkozy has a Saturn/Pluto square - I thought he might have. Nothing like Saturn/Pluto for a hard-liner. I don't know about the others mentioned here.

                For more Signist gruesone tales but without any machiavellian or political motives whatsoever, there was the child murderer Ian Huntley. The girfriend who lied to the press to protect him had a new Moon in that sign. There have been indignant complaints about his living the life of riley in a luxury room with sky TV etc, but the rationale is that he has to be contained, somehow. He has been diagnosed since as suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder, Not insane, but not precisely well mentally, either. I would be curious to see what ismade of this Norwegian guy. As said, he certainly seems to have little in the empathy department.

                • Unsu...
                   

                  I don't think zodiac signs mean jack

                  I have Sun in Scorpio like Billy Graham , and I am nothing like him.
                  He's definitely a conservative and religious right
                  I am the opposite

                  There is definitely so much involved

                  J Edgar Hoover and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had Moon in Pisces
                  J Edgar Hoover was on the opposite side of the Civil Rights thing


                  btw....I wouldn't underestimate Brevik's Sun opppose Makemake and his Sun-Earth-Sedna alonement
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    btw

                    I have Moon square Saturn with 1'58 orb, and it's even has narrower orb in Right Ascension (Equatorial Longitude) of '48 orb

                    It's even in a tight t-square with Neptune.........so Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint just like Adolf Hitler
                    in Right Ascension, it's even in a tight t-square with Jupiter........so Moon oppose Jupiter/Saturn midpoint

                    I am definitely not an extreme nationlist,bigot,racist like Brevick
                    • "I have Sun in Scorpio like Billy Graham , and I am nothing like him."

                      ...? Many people who share the same sun sign are definitely not like each other. So, yeah...?

                      "I am definitely not an extreme nationlist,bigot,racist like Brevick"

                      But you do pay particular attention to race (and are very detailed and outspoken about it)
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        "I am definitely not an extreme nationlist,bigot,racist like Brevick"

                        But you do pay particular attention to race (and are very detailed and outspoken about it)

                        Yeah......because I cannot stand racism,bigotry,prejudice of any kind
                        I am a strong believer in equality and tolerance of diversity
                        that goes for all races/ethnic groups,genders,nationalities,sexualities,religions,spiritualities,faiths,neurological profiles, etc.

                        You're damned right I am very detailed and outspoken about racial/ethnic issues. I am also the same way about issues in regards to sexuality,neurological profiles

                        but that doesn't make me an extreme nationalist,bigot,racist

                        I certainly wouldn't go around killing people


                        so GET the FUCK out of here with that SHIT!!!
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Oh

                          BTW

                          There is something called "Sociology"

                          The shit that you're trying to call me out and try to compare me to Brevik is what applies to Sociology.

                          Sociology can apply to Astrology just like Psychology can apply to Astrology
                          There is Psychological Astrology.
                          There is also Sociological Astrology.

                          If Psychological Astrology is fine, then I don't see why Sociological Astrology is not fine.


                          but yeah......I am not nothing like Brevik

                          Talking about racial issues doesn't make me an extreme nationalist,bigot
                          I am totally the opposite of that.

                          I even feel that tolerance and acceptance of diversity is my greatest life lesson and part of my path
                          that's why I incarnated as a neurodivergent,multiracial, sex hormonal divergent male that also has alternative spiritual beliefs
                          It makes it lot easier to believe in tolerance and acceptance of diversity and concept of equality including that people should be treated equal......nobody is superior and nobody is inferior

                          diversity is not the problems
                          it's intolerance of diversity that is problem

                          We don't need people like Brevik on our planet.
                          There are a lot of people with those attitudes where there is a lot of cultural,religious,ethnic/racial diversity like right here in USA.
                          • "I even feel that tolerance and acceptance of diversity is my greatest life lesson and part of my path "

                            maybe that was/is Brevik's life lesson too ~ only he hasn't learned it very well

                            love all-ways,
                            mem
                            • Ugh. But both kinds of people have one thing in common: they're obsessed with race, regardless of what's your excuse to justify that. His, ethnic cleansing or whatever trauma he had from growing up with his dad; yours, yours intolerance for intolerance. I think one must be pretty fixated on an idea in an unhealthy kind of way, both fighters for it and against it. I mean, I think most people just don't care or even give it that much thought. What's the astro explanation you have for this? I guess (and I repeat, I GUESS) your Virgo ASC must be at work here, with your long and super detailed comments, while your Scorp Sun makes you good with researching about these subjects. What else??? I'm just being curious, do you have any aspect/position/whatever that says you tend to "attach"? (I'm sincerely asking)
                    • I was not using either Sign or conventional natal aspects to draw parallels with Brevic's bigotry. If that was my intention, then I would not have pointed out that someone I know well is the astro-twin of a mafia don.

                      My point was that if you feel the need to look at Signs, then maybe it would be a good idea to avoid viewing any Sign from certain popular preconceptions.
                • >How would you account for, say, Palin, Ayn Rand, Dick Cheney, Sarkozi, Ceaucescu, the North Korean leader and for that matter, Machiavelli, if this Sign really is all sweetness and light?<

                  I never said that it was all sweetness in light. Nor that it couldn't be right-wing extremism. I brought up the Unabomber, who was obviously not all sweetness and light, and was a right-wing extremist. But there was a difference in the motivation... the Unabomber saw technology and modern society as oppressive and fought against it. Similarly, Sarah Palin, Dick Cheney, and Ayn Rand both push against big government, which they find oppressive... like the Unabomber. Ayn Rand was absolutely oppressed by the Bolsheviks... and Aquarius can definitely be a very reactionary sign... if it feels oppressed, it can definitely move as far in the opposite direction as it can. And what we consider "oppressive" is definitely based on personal experience.

                  Machiavelli, according to astrotheme, was a Taurus. The moon is, according to them, the only planet in Aquarius and it's squared by Saturn and MC.

                  I actually think that the far-right is very Aquarian... government is typically one of the first places people are going to find oppression. But, from what I've read, Breivik seems like the other type of right-winger... less individualistic, more organizational, i.e., the church, Norway as a nation, and more geared toward those structures taking greater control as opposed to less. It's possibile that from his perspective, Muslims are oppressors. And I think that that's part of it, which could definitely be attributed to the Aquarian sun. Obviously, the entire chart is part of it, including the sun. I'm simply saying that I don't think the focus on the Aquarian sun is right in this case. Like I said, I think the Moon/Saturn in Virgo and the Sun conjunct Mars squaring Uranus are more important than the fact that his sun's in Aquarius.

                  Aquarius as a control freak... depends on what you consider a control freak. If we have the same idea of what a control freak is, I'd probably look elsewhere in the chart. But Aquarius can definitely cling to an ideology. And, on a more personal level, can definitely have their "space"... which usually comes from a need for a sense of unobstructed personal freedom. But, as far as pushing for organized bureaucratic control... not typically.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Machiavelli, according to astrotheme, was a Taurus. The moon is, according to them, the only planet in Aquarius and it's squared by Saturn and MC.

                    I did state from the start that I extended my criteria to include either luminaries or angles, not just the ubiquitous Sun sign - I was looking at the Sign in action, at what might be seen as a more reactionary to the Sign's expression. I really do not care for the narrowness of categorising people through their sun signs at all, any other poster who might have assumed that about any astrological approach of mine is totally mistaken there. At the same time, I have often noticed that many people often express their guiding principles according to the most dominant and powerful factors to be seen in their charts, and a warped social idealism could be a part of Breivic was about in terms of his Aquarius Sun. I did not think you were suggesting that Aquarius is all sweetness and light either, just observing that it may be possible to miss something through misconceiving certain potentials implicit in the sign symbolism for good - and for bad.


                    As for what made Brevic the killer he was, well, I would look more towards the Mars/Uranus and the Moon/Saturn too. Of course, most people with Moon/Saturn aspects manage not to become serial killers, emotional disconnect and damage, but it still seems that there is a troubling minlrity that does. Other aspects from newly-discovered planets might or might not shed light, but I think we simply don't know enough about them to draw reliable conclusions yet, even though the information may be interesting.

                    And as you pointed put, there may be other ways in which you can be a control freak than just pushing for organised bureacratic control.




                    • I absolutely know that you don't categorize people by their sun sign. You've always had a wide perspective, as far as I've seen. And I don't think you were over-focused on the Aquarius sun in this thread... you brought up the Moon/Saturn conjunct. I wasn't directing most of my earlier response at you... just the very beginning.

                      I also don't like categorizing by sun sign. And, I should point out that looking at the charts of other domestic terrorists, there's not an excessive amount of Aquarius suns, or even people with the sign strong in their chart. I do see a lot of Uranus aspects... especially to Sun and Mars. Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kaczynski, Jarred Loughner, Eric Rudolph, Terry Nichols, all have either Sun or Mars aspecting Uranus. Saturn aspects also seem prevalent.

                      And, of course, I don't think you should categorize even based on that. I have Sun conjunct Uranus square moon and I'm not planning on blowing anything up (just fantasizing about it regularly) :-)
  • Well looking at the whole threat it would seem when the Aquarian Age comes we'll all be screwed.

    Everything I saw here regarding Breivik doesn't alter my view of that pathetic neocon kook who watched too much Faux-news...
    • Unsu...
       


      Can I point out something about the so-called Aquarian Age.

      It's referring to the precession of the Equinoxes.
      When Vernal Equinox moves into the Constellation of Aquarius, then the Age of Aquarius is supposed to begin

      The Age if Aquarius is referring to the Aquarius constellation. It's not referring to the tropical Aquarius nor sidereal Aquarius for that matter.

      What's confusing is that astrologers will tend to refer to the tropical Aquarius as the New Age sign

      It would make sense for the tropical Aquarius placements to not be New Age placements
      It would make sense for Aquarius constellation placements to be New Age placements


      In my own chart:

      My Moon in Pisces is actually in the Constellation of Aquarius, and so that would be a New Age placement
      My Moon is actually in alignment (projection on the ecliptic conjunction) with Alpha Aquarius star, Sadalmelik and Theta Aquarius star,Ancha Therefore, My Moon has a very strong connection with the constellation of Aquarius

      My Mars in Aquarius is in the Constellation of Aquarius, and so that would be a New Age placement
      My North Lunar Node in Aquarius is in the Constellation of Capricorn, and so it would not be a New Age placement
      • >When Vernal Equinox moves into the Constellation of Aquarius, then the Age of Aquarius is supposed to begin<

        I would say, not exactly. The astrological ages are there to measure epochs. The constellations are merely used as man's reference points. Epochs themselves are of equal length. The identification of constellations allowed humans to see the movement, but were never meant to be exact.

        Same goes for a planet being in either Pisces or Aquarius... it may technically be in the physical constellation Aquarius, but based on mathematics of time, it's considered to be in Pisces. Whether or not the mathematics we're using are precise is questionable, but the constellations are still merely imperfect reference points... kind of like saying, it's near the tree.
        • "I would say, not exactly."

          Yeah, not exactly. Did you see this image? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...x_path.png It describes the astronomical phenomenon of "axial precession," and that's the reason why Aries is tropically considered to star with the start of spring. Spring DID, siderally, literally, constellation-wise start in Aries centuries ago but not now anymore because constellations have moved through time due to the "axial precession". So, your're right on your 2nd paragraph, not that someone ever questioned what you explained.

          Before anyone says, "Wait, but it's wikipedia! ANYONE could've messed with that picture!" I'd strongly suggest you try and conduct some research on your own then. Axial precession is an astronmical phenomenon, not astrological. Both subjects used to be the same thing before, but not now, so it's only natural to think a part of astrology is based on what we know as astronomy. Like the sign/constellation spring starts nowadays, as opposed to the one it did millenia ago.

          I think I understand what you're trying to say, though, and you're saying that the real age of aquarius will being when the spring equinox starts in tropical aquarius, regardless of the arbitrary size of a particular constellation. I think you're right because if it weren't like that, then the age of Virgo would last for like a few millenia while the age of Scorpio would last for less than 1. Also, that would mean the whole Great Year, the sum of the 12 ages, is made up of unequal ages (some would last more, other less), and that's... asymmetric.

          I think I could've explained myself incorrectly, and I'm glad you've given me the opportunity to clear that up. I'll rephrase.

          If you took the whole 360° of the sun's ecliptic and divided it in 12 equal parts (that is SIGNS, not constellations), as soon as the spring equinox starts on the degree 330 (degree 29°00'-29°59' of tropical Aquarius), then the age of aquarius would be beginning, regardless if that particular tropical zodiac degree corresponds to degree 1 or 500 (I'm exaggerating) of the actual, literal constellation of Aquarius.



          ~~~~~~~
          RECOMMENDED LITERATURE

          Age of Aquarius: are we there yet? www.carnaval.com/precession/

          "Currently, the vernal equinox is in Pisces; and at the cusp of Aquarius. (... ) The ancient world and today's both use a cycle of 360 degrees where 72 years is one degree 2160 (72 x 30) which would put Dr Simpson's end time using the more practical 12 x 30 degrees definition of the Precession of the Equinoxes at 2070."

          Age of Aquarius www.aquarian-age.net/Age-of-Aquarius.htm

          "It is commonly accepted that the Aquarian Age is a period of time that is approximately 2160 years in length. (Even NASA rounds a great year off to 26,000 years)"
          "An Age is one twelfth of a 25,800-year astronomical cycle determined by the precession of the equinox. (2160 years = 1/12 of 25,800 years)"
          "Thousands of years ago the signs of the zodiac corresponded closely to the constellations of the zodiac, but the precession of the equinoxes has separated them over the past two thousand years"
          "The divisions of the sky into segments that define the Great Ages may be currently based on what we refer to now as the signs of the zodiac and not the constellations of the zodiac"
          "The Signs of the Zodiac are 30-degree segments along the Zodiac, and start with the position of the equinoctial point for any given year. The constellations of the zodiac don't coincide with the signs of the zodiac at this time in history because the precession of the equinox has precessed the signs back 30 degrees."
          • Wait, no, that's nonsense.

            Taking into account the signs as to determine when will the "age of aquarius" start is just illogical. Why? Because every year we're going to divide the ecliptic into 12 equal parts starting from where the vernal equinox falls -regardless of what that place is-. So, whether the vernal equinox is in the constellations of A or B or C, it'll ALWAYS mark the beginning of spring at 0°00' Aries.

            That's completely irrational, I stand with what I said before my previous comment...

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