Advertisement
in today's Western culture:
Fact is, what the ancients considered hardship, is now sought out by the wealthy and the most accomplished in our culture: Namely, meditation, yoga, self understanding, etc. To assume that a saturn/mars/outer planet in a difficult position to personal planets applies today the way it did in Kepler's time is pure fantasy. We have what the ancients assumed to be 'good fortune:' being born with a roof over our heads and food in our mouths, what 'squares' 'opposes' 'inconjuncts' our world, is no longer what it use to be, and IMHO we need to adapt our readings for this.
Do you really read a chart and think, wow, that poor fellow, the ancients would read this square as such and such? And if so, does it work for the person in question? How do you read charts? How often do you apply traditional astrology to your readings, and does it work?
Fact is, what the ancients considered hardship, is now sought out by the wealthy and the most accomplished in our culture: Namely, meditation, yoga, self understanding, etc. To assume that a saturn/mars/outer planet in a difficult position to personal planets applies today the way it did in Kepler's time is pure fantasy. We have what the ancients assumed to be 'good fortune:' being born with a roof over our heads and food in our mouths, what 'squares' 'opposes' 'inconjuncts' our world, is no longer what it use to be, and IMHO we need to adapt our readings for this.
Do you really read a chart and think, wow, that poor fellow, the ancients would read this square as such and such? And if so, does it work for the person in question? How do you read charts? How often do you apply traditional astrology to your readings, and does it work?
posted by:
|
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 11, 2012 - 11:11 PM
Good question.
Short answer:
Times have changed, things are a lot different now than back then.
WE aren't. We are pretty much the same critter that huddled around the campfire during the last Ice Age. It's all relative.
The ancients may have gone overboard in expressive language, they surely did. And their Astrology wasn't primarily concerned with the individual. But, the basic premises and structure they got right.
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 11, 2012 - 11:26 PMI tend to agree with the premise, however Astrology is a language of archetypes. Therefor, do we need new archetypes? I know of a man who is set on co-creating new mythologies. While these new mythologies are not astrology directed, do you think something of this sort it might be useful?
Willi Paul
openmythsource.com/ -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 12, 2012 - 3:29 AMI don't think much has changed...people are still born into grinding poverty or privilege. Shit happens, and if astrology can show the nice things then surely it shows the bad too? Ok, having your goat stolen isn't that likely in the developed world, but you could easily have your car pinched, fall down the stairs, get sick and die, etc.
A lot of the traditional sources also warn against judgements that are outside the range of possibility, eg. if the chart shows a serf marrying well above their class it doesn't mean they'll end up marrying royalty! So adapting the judgement to fit the circumstances is a clearly stated part of the discipline even in the ancient texts.
Personally, I found that a lot of the stuff that is generally taken as read when you're a beginner (dignities/house meanings etc.) suddenly made total sense when I read Ptolemy - it's the same thing as far as I can see.
"Modern" astrology IS traditional astrology, right? Even the newspaper Sun sign horoscopes? If it works, it works. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 12, 2012 - 6:13 AMInteresting. As people evolve I feel archetypes stay the same but our thoughts on them change. IQ tests have gone up with each generation of testing. I think we are starting to understand nothing is inherently "bad." If you follow hip-hop culture you'd know calling a girl "bad" within the past 5 years or so mean she is hot. So how we use it is even being twisted based on this premise as well. -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 5:56 PM"IQ tests have gone up with each generation of testing."
Who creates IQ tests, and what do they really test? And is it applicable throughout cultures, or hand picked ones who speak certain languages fluently? -
-
Unsu...
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Sat, July 14, 2012 - 4:27 AMI don't agree with IQ tests being the be-all and end-all be all of how intelligence should be measured and EITHER do the people who MAKE the exam.
Although, it is the BEST way we've come up with YET.
That being said...The fact these tests have gone up with each passing generation I feel speaks volumes for growth in peoples mental capacities.
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Sun, July 15, 2012 - 9:58 PM"Although, it is the BEST way we've come up with YET.
That being said...The fact these tests have gone up with each passing generation I feel speaks volumes for growth in peoples mental capacities."
>>How deliciously circutious....and stupid, but OK ;-)
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 6:09 PM"however Astrology is a language of archetypes"
How do you explain 'archetype' to the layman going through a divorce in modern times (fully backed by a lawyer and their family and friends urging them to break-it-up and take 'him/her' for whatever it's worth?). Or someone going through bankruptcy, allowed to still keep their home and a clean slate provided they 'promise' to be better forever after, LOL! What constitutes hardship these days make an archetype weep.
I do. however, like the merit of a new paradigm shift in mythology. -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 7:00 PM"What constitutes hardship these days make an archetype weep."
You're speaking as if middle-class Americans (or higher) constitute the human race. They/we don't.
And, I'm not just speaking of 3rd World Nations; there's plenty of poverty right here in the USA.
Here's an easy 30minute drive from my house: www.youtube.com/watch
A 2010 broadcast by Diane Sawyer.
(Don't know why I put links like this; nobody ever watches them. If they did I'd get PMs. . .)
Perhaps there should be two (or more) Astrologies, depending upon social and economic status? -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 8:58 PMGood point Edward, I particularly like this:
"measure a man's greatness by how much it takes to discourage him." -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 9:47 PMWOW - you watched the video! (and I got a PM).
WAY off topic:
In one county in Southern WV, almost 70% of the land is owned by out of state corporations. Over the years, billions of $$ worth of coal, oil, gas and timber have been extracted. None of the profits stayed behind. The only decent paying jobs (save teachers) are with those companies. The end result is Third World conditions within an easy day trip of the State Capitol.
-
-
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Sun, July 15, 2012 - 11:15 PM
"do you think something of this sort it might be useful? "
( Ended up here, byw : www.planetshifter.com/node/1855 )
Perhaps . . . Right now, I'm unsure of the path Paul is taking/making toward the creation of new myths.
Sustainable energy /food, and reestablishment of a supportive communal culture.
Two videos: www.youtube.com/watch and www.youtube.com/watch
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 12, 2012 - 1:36 PMHi Queen,
Much of our most fundamental understandings of astrology come to us by way of the Ancients, and the way they practiced astrology. For example, we learn a heck of a lot from Horary astrology, perhaps the first form of astrology used by Man. Things like the VOC Moon, for example, have great utility in modern times per the natal chart. Another highly useful "trick" that I got from Horary, was the "stricture against judgment" that occurs, when the Asc or Moon is in the first or final three degrees of a Sign; it can suggest that the chart may be off, and for me to really go over the chart with a fine tooth comb.
Some of the old delineations and the like can still be applicable today; for example, I recall very well doing a chart for a lady where I gave her a description of her ex hubbie ripped right out of the ancient texts; among other things, it described him as "a fool" and that's exactly what he is!
Now I agree that the times have changed, and to be sure, I'm a modernistic astrologer insofar as tools like the Outers, midpoints and the like are concerned (I'm ambivalent about the whole "Humanistic/Psychological" astrology movement - more on that another time); but I also keep an eye on the past to inform what it is I'm doing today.
In my world and in my view, there is room for both.
Salaam
Mu -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Tue, July 17, 2012 - 8:10 AMMuMin
"For example, we learn a heck of a lot from Horary astrology, perhaps the first form of astrology used by Man."
I agree that we learn a lot from Horary astrology however it is absolutely NOT the first form of astrology used by Man.
The first forms are mundane by and large, not horary.
Edward
"The talents and skill sets required for many occupations have changed to such a degree over just the past 50 or so ears as to render those requirements completely indistinguishable from the pasts requirements. Doctor or pharmacist come immediately to mind. "
The basic techniques are, in my opinion, actually pretty sound. It's just that the nature of the jobs have changed so much.
Let me give you an example.
One particular way of judging occupation, and I'm going to be really simplistic on the technique here, is to examine the planets which aspect the MC, and in particular those which form a trine. Chances are these planets, or a combination of them, or the one with the most ability to act in the chart, will describe or shape the native's career.
We'd also look at any planet with strong dignity in the chart or which disposes or aspects the Sun.
Let's take my chart.
I have two planets trine the MC by aspect: Venus in Taurus, Neptune in Capricorn.
Sun is in Gemini, disposited by Mercury, also in Gemini.
So traditionally we might suggest that the venusian occupations would appeal to me: The Artisan route - anything from a potter, to an artist, to a musician etc.
Mercury plays a role here too, and this suggests communication, teaching, mathematics, logic, science and pursuits of the mind.
Let's ignore Neptune for a moment.
So Venus is also in good dignity, this suggests that the more dignified Venusian role spring to mind here - the least dignified role might be a sex worker for example! (I partially jest of course!)
So we expect it to be dignified, so too is Mercury.
So we combine our signification so far and we have a design role which involves mathematics perhaps or some more intellectual or mercurial shaping.
Now we can bring in Neptune. It naturally rules the 'unreal' or the 'virtual', and it can relate to illusions and misdirection - if other chart factors supported it it might be a good photographer or film maker - I say this because it is coupled with the signification of Venus which rules the arts. If Saturn or Mars however was involved we might look to the Neptune showing poisons maybe etc.
Well what do I work as? I'm a web designer - I design the virtual. I create and perform an artisan role in a neptunian/illusory/virtual environment and I do so quite often using mathematically derived means.
So the traditional approach quite nicely describes my job. Yes, occupations have changed, but the basic nature of the planets hasn't. All it means is we can't stick rigidly to the cookbooks from back in the day, but then, we shouldn't be doing that anyway.
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 12, 2012 - 10:19 PM
Upon reflection, there IS at least one area wherein Traditional Astrology is found wanting - Occupation.
The talents and skill sets required for many occupations have changed to such a degree over just the past 50 or so ears as to render those requirements completely indistinguishable from the pasts requirements. Doctor or pharmacist come immediately to mind.
Doctors are no longer "healers", and many (Radiologists for example) never see a patient in person. Object/ground perception is far more important for a radiologist than any knowledge of medicine. And, the Pharmacist is also known as "Chemist" for good reason. The "Rx" stands for "take" meaning to take this chemical/herb/whatever and mix it with another chemical/herb/whatever thereby creating a preparation to be used as medicine. Now, it's putting the correct pill in a bottle. The most important trait for a Pharmacist is strict attention to detail.
About the only occupations remaining essentially the same are the trades; carpentry, masonry and the like. -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 12, 2012 - 10:20 PM
Typo - that's 50 or so YEARS, not ears. . .
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Sun, July 15, 2012 - 10:15 PM"About the only occupations remaining essentially the same are the trades; carpentry, masonry and the like. "
Interesting where this discussion went...and interesting you mention this. I teach my kids to do two things: use there mind and heart, yes, but have a skill..one that is not likely to go away anytime soon. Time to think of astrology in a different way, don't you think?
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 12:27 AMNamaste
How many astrologers do exact calculations of dasa, antar dasa, no body they just rely upon the calculations of computers and never do home work to synchronize the periods with past events, that's why therir predictions are seldom accurate.
Astrology is science and need accuracy, if its there predictions are always correct, that i have seen with my own experience.
OM -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 12:59 AM
"How many astrologers do exact calculations of dasa, antar dasa, no body they just rely upon the calculations of computers "
Frankly, don't know what dasa and antar dasa are - have no experience.
Do NOT rely upon computers. (Although astro.com is unusually accurate, have found sites that were not.)
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 13, 2012 - 6:21 PM"Astrology is science and need accuracy, if its there predictions are always correct, that i have seen with my own experience."
Dear Yogi,
Astrology should never be about predictions only. It is a means for self knowledge/awareness, a tool to aid in a life long quest of self-discovery. Should it ever be a tool used only by those 'specialized' in it, I would've stopped studying it long ago and became a priest (oops, female, can't be one I guess).
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Tue, July 17, 2012 - 8:14 AMYogi
"How many astrologers do exact calculations of dasa, antar dasa, no body they just rely upon the calculations of computers and never do home work to synchronize the periods with past events, that's why therir predictions are seldom accurate.
Astrology is science and need accuracy, if its there predictions are always correct, that i have seen with my own experience.
OM"
Many astrologers do the calculations actually - they use tools to do it very often, once such tool is the Magical Abbacus, also called a computer.
That you use a tool is irrelevant to whether the calculation is done or is accurate. Now it's true that many do not understand what the tool is doing, but that was always true. We have examples in every profession where a person uses a tool without full understanding of what that tool does behind the scenes.
Astrologers are no different.
Do you sit at home and work our placidean house cusps by hand - not even using a log table or table of houses? If so you are foolish. Chances are you will make a mistake. There is no need to do it, you can just use a tool. In older days that tool was a table of houses. Now we can do it with much more accuracy using a computer.
If I ask you to dig a hole will you do so with your hands? Or will you pick up a shovel? And if I give you the keys to a digger?
Tools are there to be used, there is no problem in using them though it helps to know what they are doing.
As for the comment of astrology being a science. It isn't. It has never come through the scientific method whole.
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Tue, July 17, 2012 - 8:01 AMI think we should always be careful that we actually KNOW some traditional astrology before we speak about it.
This might seem like a simple point but I think it's an important one.
Who here has actually studied traditional texts or the traditional approach to chart reading? I mean actually studied, not lazily perused or quote mined from a text?
Queen,
You're correct that the exact details of what is considered good or bad fortune has changed - but then it changed in the tradition too. All authors are writing within the context of their time and place. This is true of the tradition right up to the modern day.
The most important point isn't the cookbook conclusions that are made within the tradition, but the basic meaning and implications behind it. The basic premise can be that saturn/mars in difficult aspect can spell for an unfavourable or, rather, a stressful time.
The exact NATURE of that stressful time is going to change depending on your culture. Not just your time. But being born in an African slum is very different to being more in a western city. The very same argument you have made could be applied here too - what the modern psychological model of astrology claims to be 'stressful' is very different in the western world than in a 3rd world country.
That doesn't mean we throw away modern astrology as well.
It means that we accept that simplistic cookbook interpretations are just that: Simplistic.
They are there to convey a meaning, not to be taken as being written in stone and true for all people in all times in all cultures forever more.
Now you ask an interesting question:
"How often do you apply traditional astrology to your readings, and does it work? "
Well the simple answer to that question, for you too Queen, is ALL THE TIME.
Yes. You look at a chart and you put your traditional hat on and say that Mars rules Aries, apparently, some even say that Venus rules Taurus.
How thoroughly traditional of you. Why not Vulcan, or Ceres, or any of the others? If I tell you that in the nu-modern astrology Ceres rules Taurus and an as of yet undiscovered planet rules Aries, and in fact Pluto actually rules Ophiuchus the 13th sign, I wonder how quickly you would fall back on tradition?
Yes. We all use traditional astrology in some form all the time. True, some use more of it than others.
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Tue, July 17, 2012 - 8:19 AMQueen
Can I ask that, in relation to your point that you have already concluded that Traditional Astrology no longer works, to what extent have you first studied traditional astrology to fully understand its processes and its approach and paradigm? Which methods have you studied and tested? Which authors have you read?
Which of the following techniques have you studied before coming to this conclusion:
Transits
Secondary Progressions
Primary Directions (which keys did you study incidentally?)
Solar Revolutions (precession corrected or not?)
Profections
Zodiacal Releasing
Firdaria
Horary
Which authors did you use primarily to study each of these techniques? -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 6:15 AMPaul,
"Do you sit at home and work our placidean house cusps by hand - not even using a log table or table of houses? If so you are foolish. Chances are you will make a mistake. There is no need to do it, you can just use a tool. In older days that tool was a table of houses. Now we can do it with much more accuracy using a computer.
If I ask you to dig a hole will you do so with your hands? Or will you pick up a shovel? And if I give you the keys to a digger? "
OK, I'm foolish, and you're a dummy; guess we're even. HAVE done that, so I would know exactly how and why the houses ended up as they were. If I am seriously doing any kind of reading, the chart is done by hand using an ephemeris and table of houses. IMO, everyone who is serious about Astrology should learn how to erect a chart with nothing but book and pencil. Otherwise, how do you know what’s really goes into a chart.
There's another good reason:
Let's assume you do have an accurate chart, printed out, and in your hand. What's the first thing you do?
Take it apart. See what's related to what. Disassemble to get at the pieces.
Why not build it from scratch . . . ASC first, then the Sun **ah, harmonious**, Mercury conj, but different sign. .**do they work together?**, and so on in such fashion, building on each as you move along. The whole is formed before your eyes and in your mind from the various parts as they fall into place. You don't have to take it apart . . . it's done. If the subject is present; there’s live interaction.
Not saying this approach is the only correct method; but it's the way it was done for 100s of years, and works exceedingly well for me.
btw, would use the digger . . . -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 6:53 AM"OK, I'm foolish, and you're a dummy; guess we're even. HAVE done that, so I would know exactly how and why the houses ended up as they were. If I am seriously doing any kind of reading, the chart is done by hand using an ephemeris and table of houses. IMO, everyone who is serious about Astrology should learn how to erect a chart with nothing but book and pencil. Otherwise, how do you know what’s really goes into a chart. "
I agree you should KNOW how to do that. I wasn't arguing against that if you re-read my post. But the poster was suggesting that using a computer will result in inaccurate predictions. To suggest that one needs to sit down and calculate the dasa manually in order to get an accurate result is ludicrous in my view.
It absolutely helps to know what the computer is doing. I don't disagree with that. You should know what the computer is doing to generate your chart, but that doesn't mean that when you rely on the computer to do the calculations that your results will be any less.
I doubt any working astrologer today casts charts completely by hand without the use of a tool of some kind - even if it's just a calculator. You mention having used an ephemeris and table of houses, but this too is a computational aid, just like a computer is, have you ever sat down and just worked out the placidean cusps yourself, without a table of houses? Not many people have and for a good reason. They're torturous to do and astrologers in antiquity didn't do it that way either.
We've always used the best tools to hand to perform what we wanted. Yes, knowing what the computer doing is important, but to a working astrologer today is it really THAT necessary to know EXACTLY what Placidean cusps are and how they're calculated? Probably not.
For example Edward you have calculated the placdiean cusps with a table of houses and ephemeris but would you be able to sit down and say, right, I know exactly what the placidean cusps are a division of and the mathematical and trignometrical understanding for their calculation? Because if so you are in the minority. Most astrologers do not know how to do this or understand the trignometry behind it.
It doesn't mean that when the computer calculates either the table of houses that you used, or the actual placidean cusps themselves that they do not know how to use it.
For example I really have no idea about the intricacies of electromagnetic wave propogation - but I still know how to use my microwave to good effect to heat up my milk. Greater knowledge of electromagnetic wave propogation probably won't heat it up any quicker!
"Why not build it from scratch . . . ASC first,"
How do you calculate the ascendant? Do you do it by working out sidereal local time, throw in the observer latitude, the right ascension of the midheaven etc etc etc
Or do you use a tool which helps give the list? -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 6:57 AMbtw I post this having already created a program to calculate planetary positions and houses from actual scratch using no tables of houses or log tables or whatever else.
I can tell you having done this that I would never in my right mind do it by hand like this - you would still be calculating just the planetary positions many hours later let alone ever having gotten as far as the houses. Then an hour give or take later you'd have the houses. Then you'll have to calculate the primary directions, or the progression or a harmonic chart.
Good luck to your day. You'll be spending all day just calculating the chart let alone reading it.
Or you use a computer.
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 7:01 AM"How do you calculate the ascendant? Do you do it by working out sidereal local time, throw in the observer latitude, the right ascension of the midheaven etc etc etc
Or do you use a tool which helps give the list?"
Yes, sometimes just for fun, and yes
Sorry, short answer - will return. Off to Cardiac Rehab !!!! ;)
Have we gotten far enough off topic?
How does it not work now has not been established. . . . -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 8:03 AM"Have we gotten far enough off topic? "
Yeah I think we have.
Back to the traditional astrology and why it (no longer) works idea then.
Personally I use several traditional concepts and techniques and in my own view they really do work.
That said, blind rigidity to any cook book interpretation, be that interpretation modern or traditional, is definitely a recipe (excuse the pun) for disaster. -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 9:51 PM"Personally I use several traditional concepts and techniques and in my own view they really do work.
That said, blind rigidity to any cook book interpretation, be that interpretation modern or traditional, is definitely a recipe (excuse the pun) for disaster."
>>We agree, afterall this, we still agree? Come now, make it interesting for me ;-) Actually I think Mu'min said the same exact thing several posts ago "there is room for both." Well, but what fun would it be if he got it right the first time?
P.S. You really hate your boring job don't you Paul (don't answer, it's obvious). What would you do with Astrology, if you could, besides argue your non-existent point of view? Where is your chart? And would it have made a difference if someone told you you could pursue music instead of Math? Seriously? Wouldn't you have still been bored? (I'm exercising the fine art of Traditional astrology at the moment).
-
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Wed, July 18, 2012 - 11:06 PM
"You really hate your boring job don't you Paul (don't answer, it's obvious)." Says one Gemini to another, in the company of Geminis.
Pull the Gemini posts out of this topic, and you could see it without using the scroll bar.
Aren't we all bored?
ON TOPIC:
Queen, kindly define how it no longer works - describe, expound, elucidate !
Have agreed occupations need to be re-vamped. That's rather narrow - what's the BIG picture?
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 19, 2012 - 12:49 AM"We agree, afterall this, we still agree? Come now, make it interesting for me ;-) A"
Well not quite, it seems we both agree that sticking rigidly to traditional cookbook interpretations are not the way forward - however I'm taking it another step by pointing out that sticking to MODERN cookbook interpretations are not any better.
For example I could quote mine from modern astrological cookbooks and point out how, taken out of context, they can seem just ludicrous.
Really we shouldn't be sticking to cookbooks at all. However the astrological techniques and approaches used throughout the tradition work just as well today as they ever did. We'd be throwing out the baby with the bathwater if we ignore them simply because the cookbook conclusions don't sit with us.
The other thing to remember is that it is currently en vogue to write about placements from a 'middle of the road' or 'typical' viewpoint - this and this placements TYPICALLY means such and such.
Throughout the tradition another approach was en vogue - making a caricature or dramatised extreme example of the placement so as to better differentiate between two placements.
What this amounts to is that the good are not just good, they're excellent and akin to saints, and the bad are not just bad but terribly wicked and akin to demons!
This kind of blowing up of features and dramatising and making a caricature of them doesn't sit well with a modern audience. But all we need to do is recognise that we're reading an ancient document written by people with a different approach to us.
"Actually I think Mu'min said the same exact thing several posts ago "there is room for both." Well, but what fun would it be if he got it right the first time?"
Yup and I agree with him. It's the exact way I do astrology. In my little astrological world view I am comfortable using a time lord technique straight from the pages of a Hellenistic astrologer, then turn to approaches given by Bonatti in the 13th century and discuss the Moon's role as archetype of motherhood that one could find reflected by Liz Greene. There's really no reason why we should slam closed some doors and attach to just one approach. Astrology is just a tool, and as a tool it's really a swiss pocket knife with many tools to suit different applications. When it comes to the predictions of events basically I find modern astrological techniques can be lacking. When it comes to subtle character interpretation many of the traditional texts are lacking. Both cover the subjects but the level and accuracy to which they do them differs.
"P.S. You really hate your boring job don't you Paul (don't answer, it's obvious)...And would it have made a difference if someone told you you could pursue music instead of Math?"
Obviously I love my job! :D
Obviously I also chose my job before I ever worked out a traditional approach to my chart being read too :P
"What would you do with Astrology, if you could, besides argue your non-existent point of view?"
The same thing I currently do with Astrology: Use it as a tool to help forecast and make sense of my world and those in it.
"Where is your chart? ... I'm exercising the fine art of Traditional astrology at the moment"
Really? Without a chart? :-/
I've chosen to remove my chart just because too often too many ignore my points in favour of pointing out some 'flaw' in my chart. It got tedious. -
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 19, 2012 - 10:25 PMFinally, real dialogue ;) (mine >>)
We agree, afterall this, we still agree? Come now, make it interesting for me ;-) A"
Well not quite, it seems we both agree that sticking rigidly to traditional cookbook interpretations are not the way forward - however I'm taking it another step by pointing out that sticking to MODERN cookbook interpretations are not any better.
For example I could quote mine from modern astrological cookbooks and point out how, taken out of context, they can seem just ludicrous.
>>You've read modern cookbooks? My favorites are Liz Greene/Howard Sasportas and anything by Jeff Greene. I like Noel Tyl's the creative astrologer ;-)
The other thing to remember is that it is currently en vogue to write about placements from a 'middle of the road' or 'typical' viewpoint - this and this placements TYPICALLY means such and such.
>>OK..
Throughout the tradition another approach was en vogue - making a caricature or dramatised extreme example of the placement so as to better differentiate between two placements.
>>Okey dokey? Do you notice how in two sentences, you've managed to stay on the fence? It's OK, You're in the company of a major Gemini with Mars in LIbra.
What this amounts to is that the good are not just good, they're excellent and akin to saints, and the bad are not just bad but terribly wicked and akin to demons!
>>Come again? This is neither modern or traditional astrology.
This kind of blowing up of features and dramatising and making a caricature of them doesn't sit well with a modern audience. But all we need to do is recognise that we're reading an ancient document written by people with a different approach to us.
>>OK, so you agree that we can't apply traditional astrology to today's culture..That was my original point (I was hoping someone would prove me wrong, as I always do).
"Actually I think Mu'min said the same exact thing several posts ago "there is room for both." Well, but what fun would it be if he got it right the first time?"
Yup and I agree with him. It's the exact way I do astrology. In my little astrological world view I am comfortable using a time lord technique straight from the pages of a Hellenistic astrologer, then turn to approaches given by Bonatti in the 13th century and discuss the Moon's role as archetype of motherhood that one could find reflected by Liz Greene. There's really no reason why we should slam closed some doors and attach to just one approach. Astrology is just a tool, and as a tool it's really a swiss pocket knife with many tools to suit different applications. When it comes to the predictions of events basically I find modern astrological techniques can be lacking. When it comes to subtle character interpretation many of the traditional texts are lacking. Both cover the subjects but the level and accuracy to which they do them differs.
>>You got it babe ;-) (god, calling a Gemini that, what horror!) But it's how each sign comes towards it that I find interesting. Here, do you notice how much Gemini I have? I post my chart for a reason, not because I think I'm a good astrologer, but I would like others to see what having a chart like this is like. I think if your sun/moon/asc. falls in the same place you don't have this 'roundabout' issue of maintaining face. There is no face to maintain. Some of the folks that I like and dislike the most have Gemini tendencies. There's nothing wrong with seeing yourself clearly, and while I've got a long ways to go, I begin by studying people and their charts (along with mine). It's impossible to separate the two, and to assume otherwise is arrogant. Call this Modern Astrology, I call it fair. My first and last astrologer couldn't stand me (my pluto/uranus conjunction, which I'm perfectly comfortable with, sat on her sun). Call me crazy, but I knew this gal couldn't give me an accurate reading if her life depended on it (so sad for a Virgo, she couldn't understand it either)...But I sent a ton of pple I couldn't read to her.
p.s. I already know your chart Paul. I make it my business to study pple I like ;-) -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Thu, July 19, 2012 - 11:53 PM
"What this amounts to is that the good are not just good, they're excellent and akin to saints, and the bad are not just bad but terribly wicked and akin to demons!
>>Come again? This is neither modern or traditional astrology. "
Have you read any of the older descriptions of a female with a Moon in Scorpio ?
"OK, so you agree that we can't apply traditional astrology to today's culture..That was my original point (I was hoping someone would prove me wrong, as I always do)."
Don't think that's what he said.
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Fri, July 20, 2012 - 1:40 AM"Okey dokey? Do you notice how in two sentences, you've managed to stay on the fence? It's OK, You're in the company of a major Gemini with Mars in LIbra. "
What fence?
That's been my point all along, but I don't think you've understood it. There is no fence. I've said I use both traditional and modern techniques and find some of this 'sit in one camp' idea unappealing. I don't recognise that there are these two camps that one must adhere to at the detriment of another. So I'm not fence sitting. I know where I am - I'm in my own little camp by myself with a little library spanning modern and traditional texts. I don't do astrology to feel a tribal attachment to one particular approach or technique, in my view that's very limiting.
You mention my Gemini in my chart several times now, what could be more Gemini than when faced with a choice of A or B the answer is "Both please".
"Come again? This is neither modern or traditional astrology. "
It is, I'm being simplistic but basically I'm highlighting how modern astrology tends to be middle of the road with an eye on the 'best possible usage' of the placement, whereas in traditional astrology it tends to be more a caricature, the differences are blown up and exaggerated.
Let me give you an example:
"Venus and Mars are at odds. They make men unsteady and weak of mind; they cause rivalry and
murder; they cause men to have many friends, but to be blameworthy, shameless, fickle, and equally prone
to intercourse with men or women; to be malicious, and plotters of murder by poison. These stars cause
men to remain with neither the good nor the bad, to be slandered and reviled because of their friendships, to
be spendthrift, flitting from one occupation to another, to be eager for many things, to be wronged by
women and because of them to suffer crises, upsets, and debts"
Hopefully this idea of making the bad terrible makes more sense now.
"OK, so you agree that we can't apply traditional astrology to today's culture..That was my original point (I was hoping someone would prove me wrong, as I always do). "
I can't understand how you've concluded this when I've said the contrary several times. I'm saying we cannot stick rigidly to traditional cookbook, as interpreted via the modern approach to cookbooks - in fact we shouldn't be sticking to cookbooks at all of any kind.
I've already said that the techniques of traditional astrology are every bit as valid today as they ever were before.
But let me ask again, you've proposed the conclusion that traditional astrology no longer works. You're asking for me to prove you wrong, but wait a second, you haven't proven yourself right or given any real reason to suggest that your rationale is correct.
Let me ask again, what traditional authors have you studied, and what traditional methods have you tested before coming to this conclusion?
As for the comments about my chart, I'm not sure why it matters what my chart is, nobody is saving face. I'm trying to explain something to you but you don't seem to understand the points I've made. My chart is irrelevant to my points though so I prefer to not bring it up in every discussion. I think it's a failing sometimes of astrologers that we can't even make a cup of tea without checking our charts about it first.
-
-
modern and traditional "cookbooks" approach, to Paul
Fri, July 20, 2012 - 8:58 AMPaul,
You said:
"...currently en vogue to write about placements from a 'middle of the road' or 'typical' viewpoint - this and this placements TYPICALLY means such and such. Throughout the tradition another approach was en vogue - making a caricature or dramatised extreme example of the placement so as to better differentiate between two placements. What this amounts to is that the good are not just good, they're excellent and akin to saints, and the bad are not just bad but terribly wicked and akin to demons!"
It REALLY helps me understand both the modern and traditional astrology "cookbook" to think of them as an "approach". The thing I object to SO much about traditional interpretation is that they are SO extreme. You are helping me to see that traditional interpretations are very extreme because they are "cookbooks" just like the "cookbooks" modern astrology has today, and being extreme was the normal format used for the traditional "cookbook". Traditional "cookbooks" are extreme to help the reader easily see either the benefits or the problems of the astrology. This doesn't mean that this is the way they should ACTUALLY be interpreted, it simply is a method to help the reader see the differences and make adjustments in the actual interpretation where needed.
Similarly, modern astrology's "cookbook" insistence on a "middle of the road" interpretation is something that I never thought about. But that, too, is a type of "approach". This doesn't mean that the chart should ACTUALLY be interpreted as "middle of the road," it is simply a method to help the reader see the possibilities of the overall effect of the astrology and make adjustments in the actual interpretation where needed.
Very Mind-opening! Thank you!
Learning all the time,
Tim
-
Re: Traditional Astrology and Why it no longer works
Tue, August 14, 2012 - 1:19 AM"When it comes to the predictions of events basically I find modern astrological techniques can be lacking. When it comes to subtle character interpretation many of the traditional texts are lacking. Both cover the subjects but the level and accuracy to which they do them differs. "
Sorry it took me a while to 'grasp' this. I had every intention, just not until now. And I agree, Paul :)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
