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Sherpa's topic of Saturn got me thinking how much I hate saturn in my third. Maybe i'm too anti - saturn and too ignorant of the positive sides of it, (in which case feel free to educate me!) but I can't help feel it to be 'heavy going, depressing, sullen....' and wondered just exactly where I would like it to be in my chart had I the luxury of choosing. I'm yet to conclude this. Are there any planets that you really wish you could just 'move' to somewhere else? Please feel free to be as flippant or as serious as you like with this topic!
Viki.
Viki.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 11:32 AMHmm... so many possibilities. I'm quite content with working with my chart as is (as, I suppose, one has to be), but, in an alternate universe, I wouldn't mind some more Saturn, Uranus, and Fire emphasis (maybe more Saturn and Uranus aspects and either Fire signs or houses) to help me be more disciplined, open to change, and active. I sit on my lazy, 12th House Taurus butt daydreaming and longing for things far too often. And, since I feel so removed from Aquarius traits, a little Aquarius could be an interesting perspective shift. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 11:51 AMHi Rothilda. Do you think that you can get these influences you wish to have from your chart, from somone close to you in your life? I say this because I lack water in my chart, and my boyfriend is water water water, which in turn has encouraged me to 'grow' in areas of my life - I suppose i've had to take on board these elements in the sense of trying to understand them, otherwise the relationship wouldn't work - and him visa versa, as he lacks earth in his chart, of which I have plentiful amounts. Obviously, a person will fundamentally always be a reflection of their own chart, but in each chart there is so much scope and room for growth and learning and I think sometimes it takes another person close to you in your life to show you beneficial ways of exisiting, behaving, thinking etc and this can happen (for good or bad it has to be said) when another person fills a 'lack' in yourself. Am I explaining this well?! Also, given that other people bring out different aspects of one's character, no doubt because an aspect in a literal sense of a planet aspecting one of your planets or angles, can activate areas in your life which are otherwise dormant. I wonder if someone in your life that you either know, or in the future will come into your life, could activate your 12th house taurus in an energising way and you find that the energy of this house develops into 'action' which would be born out of the daydreaming, whatever daydreaming that may be. I actually think that daydreaming is always a great starting point for getting things done - without the daydreaming there would be nothing to come after :) -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 12:19 PMviki -
Those are all really interesting points and astute observations!
My girlfriend is actually a double Aquarius (Sun and Ascendant) with Saturn conjunct her Sun, so I'm getting a lot of the influences I mentioned through her! She also has a Leo Venus, of which I am very fond. Otherwise, she doesn't have a terribly fiery chart, but the Air and Saturn is really good for me, I think.
I've tended to be attracted to and friends with a lot of Fiery people in my life, though! And I think Fire/Water people tend to be big influences on me and do a nice job of energizing me. I tend to do a lot of collaborative creative work with people with strong Cancer and Pisces in their charts, too.
I'll keep an eye out for patterns with what energizes my 12th House Taurus placements! That's good stuff to think on... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 12:20 PMWhoa, do I need to preview my posts! My girlfriend IS a double Aquarius, but with her MOON and Ascendant there, not her Sun. (Actually, her Moon is in the 12th House, which is some interesting 12th House overlap between us that I didn't think about before). She's a Virgo Sun.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 11:46 AMI have Saturn on the IC, so I know what you mean! But doesn't it help with your writing? I mean, Jupiter in the third would also need Saturn there. Keeps you from babbling away at least. And you also have an opportunity to control/organize your thinking, esp. with Pluto there also. I don't understand much of this aspect myself-the 3rd house seems kind of blah in general. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 12:08 PM'babbling away' - see my post above yours - I had a good ol' babble there! I don't really do any writing, I used to love it when I was younger and went through a phase of writing poetry in my early 20's - but nothing now, except writing in this forum which i'm finding enjoyable. How do you find saturn on your ic? I'm not familiar with that aspect, i'm thinking about how that affects the MC, and your 10th house of career, (i'll google it) do you have an inkling that once you master the energy of saturn on ur ic the result will feel great because sometimes the best things come from mastering the most difficult and challenging, and the victory is always all the more sweeter! I actually find controlling my thinking really hard - it's a discipline i'm realising I have to master in order to get the most out of my life - and not a challenge I particuarly want as I find it very difficult to do, and trying to do things which you find difficult require discipline too! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 12:25 PMAt risk of sound suck-up-ish, viki, I found your above writing not babbly, but observant, thoughtful, and to the point!
We're always so hard on ourselves with our Saturn stuff! I have mine conjunct my descendant/opposite my ascendant, and I come down pretty hard on myself about my general self-expression. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:59 AMThankyou very much Rothilda - yes, saturn does make us hard on ourselves with certain areas of our lives, but my leo ascendent is non the less grateful for the compliment! Your seventh house saturn trines mercury - a really useful aspect to own and utilise in real time. Ahhh... seems that even saturn can be lovely - with this aspect, you have a good chance of really enjoying your life and getting the most out of it I think. It is also quite creative - which suprises me as I never think of saturn as being creative, perhaps in some ways it can provide you with the ability to be creative and see projects through as apose to always having 'dreams in the pipeline'. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 11:46 AMThanks for the reply, viki! And Leo Rising - aha! I should dish out more compliments!
I hadn't thought of that Mercury/Saturn trine as creative, before, either, but I really like that view of it. I think you're right - that is one way I do sometimes manage to motivate myself - by putting in hard work analyzing things. I am pretty mentally disciplined, when I can focus for long enough (which is certainly not all the time - oh, Gemini Rising + an Aries Mercury square Neptune). I like going over and over and over ideas in order to get them ready to actualize, which generally does happen eventually, particularly when working with people (Saturn on descendant, plus Mercury in the 11th). I do very well with leading planning sessions in creative group work. Though sometimes I can rely too much on creative partners and avoid doing things solo or reeeeeeeally take my time getting around to things.
Anyhow, it's interesting to think of Saturn as having creative potential, in general!
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Unsu...
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 2:56 PMI'd move my chart slightly so that the planets are shifted one house earlier (Leo rising vs. Cancer). Pluto in the 3rd vs. the 4th so I didn't have so much family baggage and I'd have a mind clarifier, Uranus in the 4th vs. the 5th so I wouldn't be asexual, Mars/Venus in the 9th vs. the 10th so that I placed more attention on personal growth vs. material power.
My progressed chart is similar, but I don't really have much faith in progressions.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 3:17 PMI wouldn't want to change my chart, but I would like to change my species.
A tree, or a well-taken-care-of housecat... *sigh* Oh well, karma's a bitch... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:21 AMHi Yoda.
I'd like to try living on the moon - not sure what kind of alien species that would make me.
People aren't very nice to trees, could be a bit risky..... if I could be another animal it would be a tough decision between a lion or a bird. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:36 AMI was thinking about being on of those stand-alone trees in the Kalihari desert that the natives use for shade and rest. Cutting that one down would just be stupid. Everyone would just be glad it was there...
That, assuming I have to exist at all. Consciousness seems grossly overrated at the moment.
I have a few saturn transits going on that are flaring up my misanthropy, rubbing my asc 135 degrees, my sun at 45 degrees semisquare, my venus at 90 degrees square. In a few months, I suppose this will all be fuel for my uranian sense of humor. In the right light, Saturn provides us with character-building experiences; in the moment, they just feel like shit sandwiches on rye.
The good part is Saturn is trining my moon right now which is helping me utilize the pain and sorrow for spiritual growth. When all is said and done, being a tree is a cowardly way out of taking responsibility for my karma as a human. I know I just have to do my best, even with all the sharks in the genepool. For the moment, the glass is half empty. I know better... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:55 AMMy Scorpio Saturn in the 3rd is probably not so bad ~ it's the transits that happen to suck these days.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 4:26 PMThere's no way this isn't going to sound corny, but I really wouldn't change any aspect of my chart. The planets that are in fall, the nasty squares, any of it. I honestly think everybody's chart balances out and is both good and bad in equal measure. -
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Unsu...
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 4:36 PMI dunno, Book, some ppl in this world are pretty UNbalanced... But that's a nice point of view to take.
I don't think I'd change species because humans hold too much power over other organisms, and it must be pretty scary to be in their shoes. In my opinion, ants are more important to this planet than we are (at least they give back vs. take, destroy, etc.), but I wouldn't want to be one. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 5:07 PM"I dunno, Book, some ppl in this world are pretty UNbalanced... But that's a nice point of view to take.
I don't think I'd change species because humans hold too much power over other organisms, and it must be pretty scary to be in their shoes. In my opinion, ants are more important to this planet than we are (at least they give back vs. take, destroy, etc.), but I wouldn't want to be one."
It's not really a point of view or even optimism - it's the truth. Really, look at any chart - find a particularly bad aspect or whatever, and if you look at the rest of the chart long enough, you will find another placement or aspect that goes against that and balances things out. Basically I'm saying that no chart is completely bad, and no one is doomed. What's that saying about when there's a closed door, there's always an open window, or something like that? Same concept.
Plus, ultimately 'unbalanced' is usually subjective - people are quick to say someone who doesn't do what they do or believe what they believe, is 'unbalanced'. Unless we're talking about mental illness, which is a separate thing and pretty much clear cut - either you're sane or you aren't. And I really can't speak on insanity myself, I've no experience with the subject, and a plethora of doctors who can vouch for me on that lmao. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:07 AMI'm definitely in agreement, to some extent, that people tend to be fairly balanced (or, at least, are born with the ability to achieve a sort of balance, whether or not they grow into it). And I also think the world needs a balance of different types of people, so not everyone should be strong in every area (which is good, since that's impossible). I like parenthetical statements too much, for instance (which not actually a very relevant example).
But I'd question how clear cut mental illness is. Most people I know with mental illness go in and out of it in their lifetimes - it's not always in effect for everyone who has it. I wouldn't call them strictly 'insane' and i wouldn't call many, many people who haven't been diagnosed with a mental illness as strictly 'sane.' I am of the opinion that most of us have some part of us that is not entirely sane and that, at times, it can take hold and we can periodically be a little bit crazy. And that might be a lack of balance... the balance tilting one way too far, on occasion, and causing that insanity (at least, for the periodically crazy, it might function this way). Maybe I'm just saying this coming from a place where I've looked back on short periods of my life and thought, "Wow, I actually did feel crazy then and behaved very strangely in comparison to now, when I feel very together and balanced." Of course, I'm lucky in that I am able to stay fairly balanced most of my life, which makes it easier to function on a regular basis. Some people definitely don't have that luck and are very much immersed, most of the time, in the less 'normal' parts of themselves, which causes huge struggles. I also think a lot of people who feel 'normal' aren't necessarily in touch with the parts of themselves that aren't sane, but I bet those parts are still there, somewhere. I think those parts are more inward and hidden and sneaky in their expression, for some people, and very large, uncontrollable, and apparent, for others.
Anyway, just musing a bit on the subject... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:12 AMAck, now I'm disliking some things in my post, upon re-reading it. I didn't want to imply that people who have mental illnesses were born with the ability to achieve balance but failed to grow into that. I'm going to retract my original statement. Maybe people aren't necessarily born able to achieve balance, but some people possess the ability to more easily achieve something close to it. That's nice and vague.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Wed, September 30, 2009 - 5:23 PMAfter almost 28 years of being a human, I'll take my chances being a tree, if "I" even have to manifest at all. Staying in the cosmic soup of potentiality would be the most ideal.
I suppose I'm just being a poopy pants... Saturn, my planet, is the planet of sorrow, after all. I have Buddha to back me up. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 1:56 AMHmmmm.... well I'm willing to give up some of my Scorp planets for something more light and airy.
Any takers? Please I'm almost begging!! LOL
It's been a rough year :( -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:24 AM
Scorpio is not that bad
I have Sun,Mercury,and Venus in Scorpio like you.
actually I have a Sun-Ixion-Quaoar-true Black Moon Lilith conjunction in Scorpio.
They are in the 3rd house in whole sign house system, and so they have some affinity with Gemini.......the emphasis on communications
I am sorry about your rough year.
I wish you a much better year
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:26 PMWhat is this Whole House System and where and how can I do it?
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 5:00 AMHi Mel. I have chiron in Taurus at 18degrees, and saturn in Libra at 3degrees which you're welcome to in exchange for two of your scorpio planets which i'd be happy to take on!
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:25 AM"I honestly think everybody's chart balances out and is both good and bad in equal measure. "
I agree to some extent with this Book. BUt I'd also suggest that there are no truly BAD aspects, just different aspects. Anything taken to an extreme can be very bad. Too many Trines would make someone potentially not very productive for example. -
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Unsu...
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:35 AM"I honestly think everybody's chart balances out and is both good and bad in equal measure. "
Maybe I am too misanthropic, but I personally think that certain people are very ambiguous, and almost non-people, whereas others are much more defined and have a true sense of self and purpose. I also think for the most part that we can make what we want out of our time here on earth, but certain ppl choose to be horrible human beings that give nothing back to others, and just take for themselves, and/or ruin/destroy happiness for other life forms. I don't think ppl who lack compassion in their chart are very balanced, for one thing. One thing I despise in mankind is apathy, and there are those who have it in spades. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:39 AM"Maybe I am too misanthropic, but I personally think that certain people are very ambiguous, and almost non-people, whereas others are much more defined and have a true sense of self and purpose. I also think for the most part that we can make what we want out of our time here on earth, but certain ppl choose to be horrible human beings that give nothing back to others, and just take for themselves, and/or ruin/destroy happiness for other life forms. I don't think ppl who lack compassion in their chart are very balanced, for one thing. One thing I despise in mankind is apathy, and there are those who have it in spades."
Teresa
I think there are some people who a littl unbalanced, but that is not because of their charts per se. People are not static, the way they are now, is not who they will be forever. Many will be working through the imbalances so that by the end of their lives, they may be considerably more balanced. There may be some who appear to lack compassion but then something may happen to them to really open them up. I like to imagine the chart unfolding like a seed sprouting and a flower open up. The seed is not the flower, but with the right kind of soil and environment it will sprout and unfold. Circumstance is involved. The very same seed (chart) could sprout two very different flowers depending on circumstance.
(excuse the analogy its the best I could think of)
"don't think ppl who lack compassion in their chart are very balanced, for one thing. One thing I despise in mankind is apathy, and there are those who have it in spades."
But can you forgive the apathetic? If not are you any better than those who cannot forgive others for something else? The truly open minded and compassionate are open minded and compassionate toward those who are neither open minded nor compassionate.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 7:00 PM"Maybe I am too misanthropic, but I personally think that certain people are very ambiguous, and almost non-people, whereas others are much more defined and have a true sense of self and purpose. I also think for the most part that we can make what we want out of our time here on earth, but certain ppl choose to be horrible human beings that give nothing back to others, and just take for themselves, and/or ruin/destroy happiness for other life forms. I don't think ppl who lack compassion in their chart are very balanced, for one thing. One thing I despise in mankind is apathy, and there are those who have it in spades."
No, everyone is human, not just the people you like or deem worthy, and you are certainly no higher life-form or deity. And as you aren't in their heads, you can't really speak on their motivations, thought process, and that kind of thing. Believe it or not, everyone is compassionate and contributes good to this planet.
You only see what you want to see. Show me the chart of the person of someone you think is so abhorrent and lacks compassion and I'd probably be able to pinpoint the opposite in a matter of seconds, and I'm fairly new to interpreting charts. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 2:05 PMBook -
I sort of subscribe to that theory, too. For a brief personal example, one of the people I've known very well in my life who I really, truly despised - who I felt was very cruel and nasty to people I care greatly about and who made a lot of enemies - was also remarkably kind and compassionate to me on several occasions. And that compassion, on those occasions, seemed startlingly genuine and not out of a place of selfishness (though he was, on many other occasions, very manipulative). And I felt sorry for him and remorseful that I'd felt so much hatred for him, at those times.
I think most people are a blend of despicable and admirable qualities. And a LOT of just sort of in-between, meh qualities. Some people just have more of one side or the other (or have more externally observable quantities of one side or the other).
But, admittedly, I'm also a bit too inclined to like people, as a whole. I really WANT to like people.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 2:23 PMBook-
How about pedophile child murderers? Would you say pedophile child murderers are redeemed because at least they offer kids candy? I'm just curious... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:41 PMYoda -
Just my perspective (though the question was not addressed to me), but I wouldn't say pedophile child murderers, as an example, would or could be redeemed by any positive qualities or actions they might possess/have done. But I think that there's always gray area for everyone. I think that the most horrible people have done something or felt something really beautiful in their lives and I think really outstanding, positive people have done or felt something extremely vile. That does not, alone, make the 'evil' people good or redeemed in any significant way, nor does it make the 'heroic' people bad or detract from their goodness. I just think that people are incredibly complex and I can't fathom how anyone would have NO positive qualities or NO negative qualities. That's why I think people should be given some amount of a chance to actively redeem themselves (though I absolutely believe in the importance of preventing people from doing harm again, for the sake of all those who don't do awful things to others), even if they might not deserve it at all. Because who knows which people who were largely on the horrible/evil side might be able to get back in touch with their positive qualities and develop a future of largely fostering those?
But I also tend to wade around in the gray area on a lot of issues and have a hard time siding with a definite, particularly on questions of morals and human nature. Maybe it's partly out of indecision or a silly refusal to admit to how much a person can become consumed by their own, very human, evil. Or maybe I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. Hmm.
Anyhow, friendly musing... I like thinkin' on this topic. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:55 PMI appreciate your perspective, and I wish I had your faith in human nature and our ability to change! I've heard all too many stories about how people are charming serial killers, etc, and so I wonder if their "redeeming" qualities were more harmful than good, ie, there good points just allowed them to prey on more people and get away with more crimes.
Charles Manson's chart is very interesting in this regard. If the positive qualities in his chart were encourgaed in his childhood, he may be a Nobel Prize Winner today. He had all sorts of potential to change people for the better, but instead he used LSD and cunnilingus to program hippies into killers.
I understand why Teresa said that there are just some hollow people out there, void of humanity, but astrology only shows potentials; it only shows actualities *after* the fact. We all have to make choices, and Mr. Manson blaming his upbringing for his crimes and promising to do better wouldn't make me give him early parole.
Thank you for *NOT* being snotty or antagonistic, and rather laying a civil foundation for a meaningful discussion. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 8:27 PMThanks for continuing a meaningful discussion!
Manson's chart IS fascinating. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, so it's interesting you bring it up. It actually (purely visually) LOOKS powerful.
You made a really good point in your post - that seemingly 'nice' qualities can easily be used for harm (and, taking this inversely, it makes sense that seemingly negative qualities could be used for good). Thus the positive and negative potential in every feature of every chart. A person with a lot of 'positive' qualities might not really have those qualities manifest as positive... they could, as easily, manifiest as harmful.
And you also made a good point when you indicated that the choices/history of a person lead to an outcome that may not be morally reversible; i.e. someone who has used their potential - in all its initial variety - primarily for ill might have shaped quite solidly in in a certain way and not be able to reshape it, later, in order to use it for good. That does seem pretty realistic. And I wouldn't think that anything Manson could do now would at all redeem his past ill actions or should give him the freedom have much choice over his actions in relation to other people ever again, because it seems unrealistic that he could change dramatically - it seems realistic that he would, again, use his potential to harm.
But I'm still reluctant to ever call anyone a completely closed case (because it's hard for a person really to know what's inside anyone else). If someone who has done terrible things possessed the interest and the power to reshape their potential in order to emphasize their more humane qualities and no longer do harm, that alone is quite remarkable. I still think people who are a danger should be in prison, though I really wish the prison system actually fostered rehabilitation and was operated in a way that wasn't hideously corrupt (particularly in regards to all the nasty racial bias that exists there), but perhaps the former, especially, is nearly impossible. I sure wouldn't know how to propose it. I just know that my belief in the SLIGHT possibility that someone who has done a lot of bad could redirect their potential for good - that they might have enough potential for good still inside them to externalize and emphasize it - makes me oppose any outside actions against that person which would completely prevent that from happening... Which is a lot of my reasoning behind my disapproval of capital punishment. It is so absolute and the decision behind it is still human. And how often are human decisions absolutely right? This is also why I am very uncomfortable with vengeance and the notion of doing evil things to someone who is considered evil (also because those things seem to sully the person who has enacted the vengeance - but it is really not my place to judge or moralize against anyone who has committed a vengeful act, as this is theoretical, and maybe it can be justified sometimes).
Wow, I'm going on all kinds of tangents! Anyhow, Yoda, I also appreciate your perspective. It really did allow me to see your side much more clearly than I had before. I think I might just HOPE that people care enough about other people to at least WANT to be 'good' much more than is realistic. That is rather idealistic and optimistic of me. Gosh, and maybe this is all my 11th House Pisces Jupiter talking. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 4:44 AMI like the way you're looking at it! We're starting to dig at those lovely grey areas between good and evil. I too am not in favor of the death penalty in all but a very few cases, ie, there's ample evidence, a confession, and the condemned asks to die explicitly. I am in favor of assisted suicide, but in our imperfect justice system, the death penalty is either too hasty or too easy. I would like to see cable TV and other amenities yanked out of prisons. It seems easier for prison inmates to get education, food, and shelter than on the outside nowadays. I heard an old guy in a wheelchair held up a bank just to go to jail for medication and an escape from poverty... But I digress.
I suppose what it comes down to destiny versus free will. I don't think anyone is a good enough astrologer to see the chart of a newborn and say, "This one's going to be a serial rapist and will be murdered at age 28 in a prison riot." Therefore, there has to be some optimism, some room to give everyone the benefit of the doubt like you and Book have said. I'm saying that there need to be sane parameters to such doubt benefits, lol.
As many stories I can dredg up about monsters, I'm sure I can find the same amount for people who turned their lives around for the better after being some degree of monster. Sometimes people have to touch a hot stove or two, myself emphatically included.
I have nowhere else to go but into spiritual mumbojumbo about karma and how reincarnation as a theory is the only way I can find peace with "God", so I'll just shut up before I let such an intellectual atrocity occur, lol. I think my glass is a little more on the half full side now, though. Thank you for that!
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:05 AMI like my chart the way it is. I'm just not sure about the transits. THAT I want to re-arrange.
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Unsu...
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 2:27 AMViki - our charts are actually pretty similar. I have Saturn in the 3rd too, but I always thought it was my Moon-Saturn square that made it depressing. Your chart is much more sunny than mine. Do you consider yourself to be a glass half empty or full type? Derrick on here is another with similar placements. You and I have the same birth date, but I am two yrs older. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 7:59 AMI also have Saturn (in Gemini) in the 3rd. Many times with that placement you see people who have been more influenced by a sibling (or perhaps not having a sibling) than either of their parents. Most true for me, and that seems to be the case whenever there's a lot of Gemini in the chart. Yes, it does incline to seeing the glass as half-empty.
Funny, but I'm giving a talk tonight to a local astrology group on Saturn. Which forced me to contemplate the Saturnian experience. I think it's important to realize with any chart that the meaning of Saturn, and especially its aspects, changes throughout your lifetime. What a Saturn/Moon square means when you're 14 is different from what it may mean to you at 30. Saturn above all else means time. I have often seen Saturn in the 4th in charts of "late bloomers," for example.
I tend to think that we choose the time we incarnate, thus we choose our chart. However, given my druthers, it'd be nice to have an angular Sun.
Michele
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 11:32 AMHi Teresa
Yes, there are some similarities :) How do you find your sun opposite uranus? I'm a glass full person with tendencies for very dark moments. I was just reading up about the moon square saturn, it sounds like a tough one - one thing struck me though, and that was levels of vitality and energy which can feel quite low in someone with this aspect, and in turn I believe that will only serve to feed a sense of pessimism which you might be prone too. I have a sense that perhaps a good way to deal with this aspect is to do everything you can to increase your physical vitality, get those endorphins running - the moon side of the aspect should respond with gratitude! You have mars in Aries which will aid you in any endeavour to be as active as you can, as often as you can. Perhaps you already do? It would interest me to hear your thoughts on this - I may be well off the mark, in which case please feel free to say. -
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Unsu...
Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 6:20 PMSun opposite Uranus can be problematic, and is one of those defining aspects. You never really feel like you fit in with anyone because you are just too different in some way. I have a very select few people that I know who I feel understand me. Most of the time I alienate people or make them uncomfortable when I am myself, so I put on acts or do not speak or open myself up at all, especially in work environments. I think we have a strong sense of self and are opinionated, but have to learn how to temper that or else we get into trouble.
I am definitely not an optimist, so Saturn in 3rd on its own can't be that bad for you. I have chronic depression/suicidal tendencies, and I associate that most with the Moon-Saturn square. There are times that I have a hard time just getting out of bed. This is especially true during times where my life doesn't feel like it's moving forward. There inevitably are those times when you have Mars in Aries square Jupiter on top of that. Physical activity can help, but it usually just masks the unhappiness within. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 8:53 PMForgive me for being anal, it's a virgo thing (well a Gemini, square a lot of Virgo things)...
If I actually wanted to change anything in my chart, I would first call my Soul up and say 'hold the line and your plan for re-birth... you are wrong, pls. don't pick that pluto, uranus or Saturn aspect thingie 'cuz it's gonna cause u lots of discomfort'
Then I would call God and say 'you know god, I was thinking, having this much power isn't good enough, how about I give it back to you and you pick it for me...' LOL, maybe there's a dividend payment of some sort.
sorry, a Uranian/plutonian moment, carry on.... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:00 PMVaroom, I'm surprised! Didn't you tell me about reading The Prophet? Did you forget what the good book says about comfort?
"...Or have you only comfort, and the lust for comfort, that stealthy thing that enters the house a guest, and then becomes a host, and then a master?
Aye, and it becomes a tamer, and with hook and scourge makes puppets of your larger desires. Though its hands are silken, its heart is of iron. It lulls you to sleep only to stand by your bed and jeer at the dignity of the flesh. It makes mock of your sound senses, and lays them in
thistledown like fragile vessels.
Verily the lust for comfort murders the passion of the soul, and then walks grinning in the funeral."
Your hard aspects mean only that you have good work to do, so work thou with joy! (I always speak Gibranese after reading thee master...) -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:04 PM"Your hard aspects mean only that you have good work to do, so work thou with joy! (I always speak Gibranese after reading thee master...) "
Thanks for this Yoda...I'm not always an island.. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:11 PMMay the Force be with you! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:21 PMI meant it, I'm not an island..you're here too...And you get it. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:27 PMI do get it, I just didn't want to get too murky and philosophical. Mars and Saturn are giving me the sandpaper treatment right now, so not being an island unto myself is really hitting home for this Yoda.
*hug* -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:32 PM"Mars and Saturn are giving me the sandpaper treatment right now"
Protect the Ass, that's all I'm going to say on this one..
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:32 PMWell, I'll follow with an 'LOL' -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:34 PM"protect the ass"
Too late, the soap has been dropped and Bubba's balls deep. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:42 PMDo tell... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:47 PMEvery young man has a summer of 2009... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:53 PMdefine young, pls.
(Amiable will be asking us to take this private any minute, lol)?...
Seriously, how young does it take to be real? And which season? -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 9:59 PMyoung = a state of mind
"how young does it take to be real?"
I doubt there's any one-size-fits-all answer to this one, lol...
"And which season?"
That is up to you. The time is short and the work is hard, so riding upside-down ostriches into purple chocolate lagoons may cause invisible sunlight to fertilize round squares. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:03 PM"That is up to you."
Shit, I hate it when people say that
"The time is short and the work is hard, so riding upside-down ostriches into purple chocolate lagoons may cause invisible sunlight to fertilize round squares."
How did you know about Lagoons? OK, don't want you to think I'm dissing you, but it really is time for me to go to bed, I've got Bikram Yoga at 6AM tomorrow...Mucho hugs and Kisses Yoda, me likes you lots ;-) -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 10:05 PMRemember to exhale into the stretches! ¡Bueños noches! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 11:17 PMWell, I am glad you guys got that out of your systems.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 5:08 AMNo worries Varoom :)
My virgo moon is usually over ridden by the leo rising I think. The moon sort of sits there minding it's own business a lot of the time, letting leo do what it likes - including indulging in admittedly fairly pointless hyperthetical stuff. Calling your soul or God up is cheating btw!
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Thu, October 1, 2009 - 8:31 AM
change house system, and maybe your Saturn will change
I switched to whole sign houses myself
My retrograde Saturn is in 9th house in Placidus
but with whole sign house system, it's in 10th house
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 12:07 AMi would move Uranus and Neptune out of my second house. I have Saturn in there as well. My Saturn is conjunct my Uranus in the Second. It can be a good thing or a bad thing when it comes to money. I either have a surplus or in desperate need for it. It doesn't help that I have slow moving Pluto transiting my second house and conjucnting my Saturn and Uranus. Ive had some RANDOM material situations go on. I would keep Saturn in my Second house though bcuz its after effects are rewarding. Everything else is cool in my chart. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 12:33 AMyeah, I would Move my Moon-Mars-Jupiter in Gemini stellium from the 9th to the 1st house, but just that. I'd rather have them in 0 degree Libra, in the 1st house. That would've been too good to be true. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Fri, October 2, 2009 - 9:08 PM
in the whole sign house system, your Moon-Mars-Jupiter is in Gemini because your 10th house is Gemini in the whole sign house system.
That's actually damned good placement for that stellium to be in too! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 12:41 AMI dunno..how many people still use whole signs anyway? I did some charts for people I know in whole signs, and they do seem to make sense, but the fact that the ac and mc are not fixed is really weird..is there any information on how to interpret the MC's position by house? lol
According to the whole sign system, I have no planets in cadent houses except for Pluto in the 3rd..and that actually makes a lot of sense. I've come to realize that I am, in fact, terrified of change, and love to build routine in terms of life's rhythm and all things related to the actual physical life. I was just thinking that once I'll start my sex life, I'll probably want to do it the same days of the week, t the exact same time every time. hahahha.
And apart from that, the lack of Saturn in the 4th(the Saturn-Uranus-Neptune group moves to the 5th house in whole sign system) is equivalent by Moon in the 10th..emotional anxiety related to responsibility and social position. Chiron moves in the 11th, so that makes sense too.
And North Node in the 7th..I don't know about that. I'm very not physical..and South Node in the 1st would make one very at home with competition and constant physical effort, wouldn't it? -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:38 AM
koch and placidus system doesn't work in the polar regions
there are over 16 million people that live beyond 66 degrees latitude too,and so they don't have horoscopes if using koch and placidus house systems.
The Midheaven can even be located below the horizon when doing charts beyond 66 latitude south
The Midheaven and the Ascendant also can be in conjunction as well as opposition in the polar regions too.
I have Robert Hand's Whole Sign Houses The Oldest System booklet.
He pointed out the translation errors from Ptolemy's writings is what led to this whole house mess that we have. Ptolemy mainly used whole sign house system,and he also used whole sign aspects too.
The notion of equal houses comes from book III in the section in which Ptolemy describes the computation of the aphetic point, a point used to determine how many years a person may live.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 2:30 PMI found this:
The Polar Problem in House Division
The idea of a division of the zodiac in houses arose in the Greco-Roman world, where the ezodiac stands high in the sky. However, some serious problems arise when one considers the Arctic and Antarctic regions (66.5° latitude onwards). They are collectively called the polar regions.
1. Ill-Defined Ascendant and Descendant
Since each system is based on the Ascendant and the Descendant, house division
becomes a problem when these are ill-defined. On the Arctic and Antarctic Circles, the ecliptic coincides with the horizon at a certain time of the day. This means that the Ascendant and the Descendant are either everywhere or nowhere. There is also no MC or IC. Since these four points form the basis of house division, it follows that houses cannot be defined.
Even when the ecliptic does not exactly coincide with the horizon, the situation becomes
critical if these circles almost coincide. The smallest inaccuracy in the time of birth can
lead to huge differences in house division.
Take for example 66.5 °
latitude. One minute before the ecliptic and horizon coincide, Houses X, XI, XII, IV, V and VI take up less than one-fourth of a degree. Just two minutes later, this changes drastically: they now fill up 359.7
2. No Ascendant / Stationary Ascendant
Inside the polar regions, a part of the zodiac never rises above the horizon. Hence,
certain signs can never be Ascendant there. Examples are northern Alaska, northern
Norway or Siberia. In these two places, the signs of Sagittarius and Capricorn never rise
above the horizon, while the opposite signs, Gemini and Cancer, always remain below
the horizon. Therefore, people born there cannot have these four signs as their
Ascendant. One of the questions to ask is whether a noticeable number of people walk
around in these regions without the characteristics of the signs of these Ascendants.
In the extreme case, on the north pole, the two intersections of the zodiac with the
horizon remain forever the same (the vernal and autumnal equinoxes). This means that
the signs Aries through Virgo are permanently above and the signs Libra through Pisces are permanently below the horizon. Not a single sign sets or rises, and the Ascendant is forever stationary. The situation is similar at the south pole.
www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/p...h-urops.pdf -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 3:10 PMI realize that you are now inclined toward a different system other than Placidus and Koch, Raymond, but I think that there are going to be a lot of people here that will continue to use these systems. For one thing, there are no natives of the South Pole or even of the continent of Antarctica, for that matter, so no one is much affected by the lack of an Ascendant sign there. In the Northern regions the situation may be somewhat more problematic, but perhaps not. I don't know how many people who were born so close to the North Pole that this situation becomes an issue, and perhaps if one were, life would be quite different anyway and could account for the lack of an Ascendant. Perhaps these sparsely populated areas create an entirely different kind of life than what we in the lower latitudes experience and which might even validate the uniqueness of the charts of the inhabitants. While I think might actually be likely, I honestly don't know enough about it to hazard much of a guess. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 3:36 PMactually, I think I'm switching to whole sign system myself, amiable...I just read an article that convinced me..it's the oldest known system out there, and astrology has never been as praised as it was in Antiquity, so I'm thinking that all means something...besides, it totally makes sense to me that the AC not start the whole natal chart... besides, what about people with intercepted signs? It's kinda silly. Everybody goes through the whole range of energies mapped out by the Zodiac circle...Aries to Pisces and back again.
Besides, apart from the fact that the AC and MC no longer coincide with the cusps of the 1st and 10th houses, respectively, are the only things that change in interpretation. All the other positions by signs and aspects remain the same, but in different houses. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 4:06 PMHey ~ to each his own. Explore away. I'm all for whatever makes the most sense to someone. But what makes the most sense to me for now is Placidus, so I'm working with that.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 4:28 PM"actually, I think I'm switching to whole sign system myself, amiable...I just read an article that convinced me..it's the oldest known system out there, and astrology has never been as praised as it was in Antiquity, so I'm thinking that all means something...besides, it totally makes sense to me that the AC not start the whole natal chart... besides, what about people with intercepted signs? It's kinda silly."
exactly..some have more than 1 intercepted sign like Ann-Margret who was born in Sweden.
Some people have ascendant-midheaven conjunctions as well as ascendant-midheaven oppositions.
"Everybody goes through the whole range of energies mapped out by the Zodiac circle...Aries to Pisces and back again."
I just want to point out that I don't believe that there is any right or wrong house system. I don't want to come off preachy.
I do believe in to each,his/her own.
as for me, I have switched to the whole sign house system.
if you want to know about the whole house system, you can get Robert Hand's book, WHOLE SIGN HOUSES THE OLDEST HOUSE SYSTEM. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:11 PMMantis,
here is more stuff about the Ascendant in polar regions:
Ascendant in Polar Regions
As we move closer to the polar regions the time lengths of long and short ascensions become more extreme.
At the Arctic circle at 66.56° north, at local sidereal time 18h 00m 00s, when 0° Capricorn is on the midheaven the ecliptic become flush with the horizon with the ascendant effectively subsumed into the horizon circle in it entirety. That is, the intersection of the ecliptic with the horizon that defines the ascendant ceases to exist, eliminating all houses at that instant. There are no signs that are rising or setting. There is no ascendant or descendant. The spherical geometry that generates them fails and "zeros" them out of existence.
In the instant after this, as diurnal motion continues, the ecliptic “lifts” from the horizon and the ascendant resumes its identity providing space for the resumption of the intermediate houses.
As we move beyond the Arctic circle most house systems break down and are inoperable for parts of the day. Ever-increasing sections of the ecliptic remain permanently below and above the horizon and can not be ascendants. For example, at 75° latitude Sagittarius, Capricorn and parts of Scorpio and Aquarius are permanently below the horizon while Gemini, Cancer and parts of Taurus and Leo and are permanently above the horizon. These can never be ascendants.
Furthermore the ascendant exhibits other strange behaviour. At latitude 75 at sidereal time 21h 20m 00s the midheaven and ascendant merge and become conjunct confounding their separate definitions! In this instance all intermediate houses are zeroed out except for house 12 and 6. In the instant after this the ascendant crosses over the meridian to the west and instantaneously becomes the descendant, but with its degrees rising instead of setting , while the descendant crosses the meridian to the east and becomes an ascendant with its degree setting rather than rising. That is the ascendant is goes retrograde! This continues until the ascendant once again crosses the meridian where upon they flip back resuming their conventional identities – until local sidereal time 2h 25m 00s when the situation flips again with all houses but 1 and 7 “zeroed” out.
As we reach the north pole itself more of the ecliptic is unavailable for rising and setting until at the precise position of the north geographic pole half of the zodiac - Aries to Virgo - is permanently above the horizon while the other half - Libra to Pisces are permanently below the horizon. That is, the first degrees of Aries and Libra permanently ride around on the horizon due to diurnal motion - never rising nor setting. At the north pole there can be no midheaven. Every direction away from you is south, so every direction is a midheaven rending the midheaven meaningless by definition.
Polar astrology raises questions about the validity or nature of houses in general and personality delineations are limited by which sign can rise and rulerships become almost impossible to apply.
Effects of Polar Astrology
There are more than 4 million people living in the Arctic region of which 12% are of indigenous birth (have charts). [1] So the problem for astrology is not trivial. Many of them will have houses missing or no houses in the their charts. Yet they must live lives that accommodate the matters ascribed to astrological houses such as "finances", "relationships", "health" etc that can be missing in their horoscopes. Ascendants of births in this region can be characterized by the proportion of ascendants that only can rise. This furthermore restricts personalty deliniations.
Murmansk at 68.97° north is in this astrological problem zone. With a population of 300,000 and annual birth rate of 9.8/1000 [2]there is a substantial a portion of the population that falls into the zone of missing houses and rising signs.
On the other hand one could dispense with houses or even signs all together. As with the method of Cosmobiology, signs and houses are either ignored or relegated as incidental. Along with planets, their mutual aspects and aspects to the ascendant and midheaven, as well as their midpoints there are still plenty of factors that incorporates a unique moment of birth for a comprehensive
delineation while avoiding the polar “crash” of classical house systems and signs.
It's obvious that the familiar house systems of classical astrology were invented in the non-problem mid latitudes in an era when population centres were more parochial. The house-system inventors were mathematically competent astrologers and they must have been aware of the polar problem but likely considered it irrelevant as they may have never had to cast a polar chart.
astrology.astrozoom.com/index.php
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:32 AMoh the other hand, there is the possibility of not using any house system. Just assessing the AC and MC's aspects to the planets should be enough... -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:34 AMEnough for what? I am so confused now. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:42 AMenough to determine a person's psychological make-up and general direction in life. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:42 AMthough I must say my whole sign chart is freakishly accurate. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:54 AMI just read a lot of the descriptions for planets in houses and all that, and they seem a lot more accurate. Chiron in the 11th..definitely makes a lot more sense than Chiron in the 10th.
So does Moon conjunct Mars conjunct Jupiter in the 10th-that's my mom, who's a Sag Rising conjunct Sag Mars, pushing me towards taking responsibilities and "achieving".
I was never all that crazy about traveling, in the first place. I'm a great lover of comfort, and traveling kills the comfort.
North Node in the 7th also makes a lot of sense. I am terrified of relationships, and all other points made on NN in the 7th by cafeastrology.com. Also Mercury and Venus in the 7th make more sense than in the 6th. I'm a natural born psychologist-and that's a very Mercury in the 7th thing. Plus, I was never particularly interested in acquiring technical skills, like the Mercury in the 6th description said..
Saturn, Uranus and Neptune in the 5th definitely make tons of sense to me. Especially in terms of house ruler interpretation. I checked house rulers by whole sign systems for a few people I know very well, and they all seemed a lot more accurate than the previous Placidus versions.
Anyway, Neptune, ruler of my 7th, in the 5th totally rings true as a hopeless romantic trademark.
Besides, all of this makes more sense, above all, because the Mercury-North Node conjunction in Pisces, in the 7th, together with the rulers of my 10th, 9th, and 2nd in the 7th house point out towards the fact that astrology is part of my current life's destiny.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:48 AMOh, I am not sure I agree with that at all. Just the Asc & MC? And if those are unaspected? Nope ~ I don't see that at all.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 7:38 AM"Just assessing the AC and MC's aspects to the planets should be enough... "
I've actually been kind of thinking lately about ignoring the signs completley for a bit and see what happens. Just look at the aspects of the planets. Its something I've been thinking of lately - the most pertinent psychological 'complexes' are demonstrated by aspect alone.
I don't think it would work in terms of personality, where I definitely think you DO need signs.
Anyone ever tried this or heard of any similar theory? -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 7:48 AMThere are some tribes that seem to be totally about aspects in which the signs are more or less irrelevant. The Pluto Moon tribe comes to mind. In that tribe, the experiences shared often seem very similar, regardless of the sign of that conjunction, and even some other aspects between Pluto and the Moon share common themes. I found at least one area of commonality myself with a Pluto/Sun conjunction, so I have to think that the effect of Pluto (at least) can be quite similar in a variety of aspects to a variety of planets. I hope that muddies the water. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 7:51 AM"There are some tribes that seem to be totally about aspects in which the signs are more or less irrelevant. The Pluto Moon tribe comes to mind. In that tribe, the experiences shared often seem very similar, regardless of the sign of that conjunction, and even some other aspects between Pluto and the Moon share common themes. I found at least one area of commonality myself with a Pluto/Sun conjunction, so I have to think that the effect of Pluto (at least) can be quite similar in a variety of aspects to a variety of planets. I hope that muddies the water."
Yeah that's the kind of thing I've noticed. For example many of the things I've attributed to my aquarius moon and gemini sun may well be nothing more than my Sun-Mercury conjunction opposition Uranus....hard to tell.
If that IS the case it would explain why we 'swear by' our western astrology and the likes of Sadasiva and ORyan 'swear by' the sideral zodiac. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:00 AM<If that IS the case it would explain why we 'swear by' our western astrology and the likes of Sadasiva and ORyan 'swear by' the sideral zodiac.>
You lost me there. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:07 AM"You lost me there. "
As in the fact that the possibility may be that the aspects rather than the signs colour the person's pscyhological motivations. I might start a new thread on this when I flesh it out more. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:10 AMWell, but how does that make us swear by Western astrology? I still don't get what you're saying. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:12 AMI do have to say though, I find a lot of difference between an Aqua Moon and a Cancer moon, for example. I am one of those for whom "sign matters." LOL!
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:24 AM"Well, but how does that make us swear by Western astrology? I still don't get what you're saying. "
Ok. So in western astrology, my sun sign is Gemini. I relate to the description of Gemini as per western astrology.
If I use the sidereal zodiac, my sun is in Taurus. I don't relate to that.
However, maybe I'm relating to neither my sun in taurus or even my sun in gemini. Maybe I'm relating to my Sun conjunct Mercury opposition Uranus and mistaking that for the descriptions of Sun in Gemini.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:33 AMI see, Paul. Well, I think the aspect thing only goes so far before the personality begins to look rather generic. At the end of the day, even in the Pluto Moon tribe, you are dealing with certain themes, but the specific reaction or response to those situations can be quite different, just as a Gemini Sun would be more inclined to hash things out verbally than a Pisces might. A Pisces might feel tongue-tied with those aspects. Just a thought.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:26 AMIn Sidereal, the aspects stay the same but the signs change; that's what I think Paul was getting at. Therefore, O'Ryan and Sadasiva using the sidereal model works because the essential dynamics (aspects) stay the same if you cast your chart in either tropical or sidereal.
On a sidereal note, I've had fun with looking at my chart from the sidereal perspective, and I think there's a lot of truth to it. I'm almost prepared to say that they're both equally valid, and their just highlighting how someone is from different perspectives. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:45 AMI am seeing more and more things of interest in Sidereal astrology, such as a Gemini Venus instead of a Cancer Venus, since I have attracted a significant number of Geminis into my life. But Cancer Venus fits in some other respects. An Aqua Mars, though, I am not so sure about. I think I would like to know a few of those to gauge whether or not I am at all like whatever that would be.
Well, all this is giving me a headache. After we are through dismantling all astrological systems and changing our charts and figuring out how to deal with people born in space, I think I may just grab a glass and get drunk. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 9:42 AMCheers to you, too, Yoda ~ nothing like a refreshing pint of bog swill to make sense of astrology.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 4:13 PM
To me, it makes no sense to use systems that aren't consistent with all latitudes
there are millions of people that live in the polar regions. Approximately 4 million people live in the Arctic. Inuit people live in the northern parts of North America, Greenland, and the Siberian region of Russia. They settled in the Arctic over 9,000 years ago. People from Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland, and Greenland, who are relatives of the Norsemen or Vikings, also live in the Arctic.
About half of the approximately 4 million people of the circumpolar Arctic live in northern European countries and the European Russian North.
"There are now approximately 4 million people living permanently in the Arctic, with the vast majority of them having come to the area as populations expanded elsewhere, access and communications were improved, and natural resources were exploited."
Discoveries of oil, minerals, and diamonds in the North, and a growing interest in Arctic tourism and ecotourism, are bringing many non-indigenous people to the Arctic to both visit and live."
"Indigenous populations now range from about 80% in Greenland, 50% in Canada, 20% in Alaska, 15% in Arctic Norway and as little as 3-4% in Arctic Russia."
www.athropolis.com/arctic-f...c-pop.htm
the population in the arctic regions is steadily increasing too.
even when people are born slightly below the polar regions, the houses become very uneven,lopsided. 2 signs can be intercepted. Ann-Margret's chart is a perfect example of that.
There are people that are stationed and do research in Antarctica. People stationed and working in the South and North Pole areas will have solar returns and lunar returns with a 0'00 Aries Ascendant. Every one of them. I know that there are navy people that are stationed at Antactica, and it's known as Operation Deep Freeze.
the other house systems were based on translation errors. Robert Hand pointed that out in his book.
It's like using a northern hemisphere season zodiac for people that live in the southern hemisphere. The tropical zodiac is a northern hemisphere season based zodiac.
I just can't ignore the discrepancies with the house systems,and think that it's ok because it works for most people on our planet.
I believe that astrology is a system that should work for all people, all places and all times.
I am not going to say anything about right or wrong house systems, but I can't in any good conscience use a house system that doesn't work for all latitudes just like I can't use northern hemisphere season based system for people born
in the southern hemisphere. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 4:37 PMThis is Ann-Margret's chart:
She was born in Valsjobyn,Sweden located at 64 degrees North Latitude, and so just 2 degrees before hitting the polar region.
her houses are lopsided
These are charts that I would feel uneasy to look at
Her chart with Koch house system
i134.photobucket.com/albums/...hart.gif
Her chart with Placidus house system
i134.photobucket.com/albums/...hart.gif
www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ann-Margret -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:02 PMRight. And for those latitudes it may make much more sense.
But I don't believe that a one-size-fits all system is necessary for validity, especially when it matches less what one experiences. If it matches better ~ fine. But that is not the case for me. There need not be only one point of view of something for there to be truth, so I don't think it is necessary to follow just one system or to ask any one system to be consistent regardless of the circumstances. It is a little like physics ~ on one level, phenomena follow classical physical laws, but on the quantum level, they do not. Neither system is more or less valid than the other ~ it just depends on what you are looking at.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:05 PM"These are charts that I would feel uneasy to look at "
Yes. For that reason I use Equal House. I've tried Whole and also Equal, and have personally found Equal the superior of the two, however many who champion Koch and Placidus would argue that the extreme latitudes bring with it extremes in life which would account for the extremes in house size. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:13 PM"Yes. For that reason I use Equal House. I've tried Whole and also Equal, and have personally found Equal the superior of the two"
Actually maybe I'm too hasty to dismiss Whole House systems. I'm looking again at my whole sign house system and it seems to make more sense to me than it did a few years back when I first started experimenting with house systems (and found equal and koch the best)..
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 5:16 PMI have my chart printed out in every house system everyone is discussing, and all I can tell is I'm still screwed no matter which houses I use. They are all pretty much the same at the essential levels. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:01 PM"I have my chart printed out in every house system everyone is discussing, and all I can tell is I'm still screwed no matter which houses I use. They are all pretty much the same at the essential levels."
How come?
I have challenging t-square of Moon in 7th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 10th and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 4th
in Placidus, Moon is in 6th, Saturn is in 9th,and Jupiter-Neptune is in 3rd
is your chart worse than that?
hahahahaha
besides, I think all charts can be pretty cool ...once we learn how to maximize the potential of our charts. easier said than done, I know -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:32 PMMy chart doesn't really change all that much in each of the house systems, and the aspects stay the same. The houses change in subtle ways, but any way I slice it they all seem right to me. I've started investigating the matter further by seeing how the transiting planets hitting the various cusps works out for me.
Ouch! Your moon-pluto square has a lot more action than mine. I'd rather have your houses though. Mine is an 8th/12th dynamic. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 8:05 AM
"Ouch! Your moon-pluto square has a lot more action than mine."
My Moon doesn't square Pluto. It squares Jupiter,Neptune,and Saturn
however,My Moon in 3'11 Pisces in 7th is square another transneptunian besides Pluto - retrograde transneptunian,Varuna in Gemini in 10th,and so conjunct my Saturn part of my t-square
transiting transneptunian,Ixion in 2'58 Sagittarius in my 4th was in a close t-square transit with it when my maternal grandfather committed suicide in 1998. Transiting Eris in 18'09 Aries in my 8th was in semisquare to both Moon and Varuna for a close 8th harmonic triangle transit, conjunct my Moon/Varuna midpoint in 18'06 Aries. His death was catalyst for me in regards to getting involved in spirituality again and getting into metaphysical subjects including Astrology.
transiting Orcus is in 1'26 Virgo in my 1st and forming a grand cross transit with my t-square of Moon square Neptune-Varuna opposition
I am curious any profound events that will happen at that time.
On October 11th,I am going to be attending Brian L. Weiss all day pastlife regression workshop here in Sacramento. He's like the main authority on pastlife regression, author of books like Many Lives,Many Masters.
Orcus will be 1'35 Virgo,and will be conjunct my Neptune/Varuna midpoint in 2'25 Virgo.
It could be a transformational time.
I've been seeing a shaman for healing sessions. He's my best friend now. I attend healing arts fairs with him as his assistant. He and I are going to a 2 day one in Reno,Nevada. It's October 24th and 25th. It's a big one. I am looking forward to it. The healing arts fair people is going to have a party too. I am certain that I am going to have a great time. Maybe I will meet some cool people.
Transiting Venus in Libra conjunct my Uranus in Libra in 2nd and transiting retrograde Uranus in my 7th trine 2nd/9th house ruler Venus in 3rd seems to indicate I could have some excitement and fun,and maybe some romance.
Transiting Varuna goes retrograde at 21'55 Cancer in my 11th house on October 23rd,and so will go back to being an applying trine my Venus in 21'47 Scorpio. Transiting Sun in Scorpio will conjunct my Sun and trine my Moon in 7th too.
Yeah, big stuff in the works. I am looking forward to it! I will make the best of my time at the healing arts fair and Reno. Heck, I will play the slots! hahahahaha
I am going to monitor the transits to my Moon/Sedna,Moon/Quaoar,Moon/Ixion,and Moon/Varuna midpoints.
Transiting Pluto in Capricorn will form a 6th harmonic isosceles trapezoid with my wedge of Moon in Pisces,retrograde Sedna in Taurus,Quaoar in Scorpio, and so it will be simultaneously squaring my Moon/Sedna midpoint and conjuncting my Moon/Quaoar midpoint. Then it will conjunct Sun/Moon and Moon/Ixion midpoints which are only 2 minutes apart because I have Sun conjunct Ixion with 4 minutes of arc,and my Moon trines that conjunction with 2'10 and 2'15 orbs respectively. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 8:30 AMOops, but ouch again! I'd almost rather have moon square pluto than moon square saturn.
I'd *love* to get a pastlife regression, but I'm a *lousy* hypnotic subject. When the induction really gets going, I get an uncontrollable case of the giggles, no matter how serious I am about wanting to go under. It's spooky and annoying! *sigh*
I hope your experience at the healing arts fair brings you renewals on all fronts! Please gamble wisely! I knew a guy who would win $10,000 and sit at the tables until it was all gone, and he'd always leave with less than what he brought, his net winnings notwithstanding. He says the worst thing that can happen to you at a casino is if you win, because you think it's going to keep happening, and when you're walking out penniless, you realize how the casinos afford such lovely decor.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 11:25 PM"I have my chart printed out in every house system everyone is discussing, and all I can tell is I'm still screwed no matter which houses I use. They are all pretty much the same at the essential levels."
Lol--yep!
On some charts, like mine, it's very confusing to see the difference. I mean, Sun and Venus in the 11th or the 12th, it's still opposite Neptune. And then the "learning through osmosis" quality of moon in the 9th could be similar to having Mercury opposite Neptune/Jupiter in Sag. And then I have a leo asc., which is a show off no matter where it is...so well, like Yoda says, I'm fucked either way.
But transits are another way to investigate...when a planet switches signs, I definitely feel that rush of energy onto the next house. Also, Pluto in Cap has been screaming 6th house for me despite its transit through the 5th acc. to equal-I even broke out into hives the day it switched signs, and I've felt intense pressure to work constantly since, not to mention a bunch of health trouble I've been dealing with. But then again, if it's opposite Venus, of course it will lead to intense creative moments, creating more confusion as to whether it's transiting 5th or 6th.
And another thing that hits me about this is Venus. I can see myself as having venus in the 12th, but then again, transits...can Venus represent friends? Pluto opp. Venus lead to two friend losses and not much romantic trouble for me? This is what makes me wonder if Equal is more valid. So again, Yoda's point still rings true.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sun, October 4, 2009 - 11:55 PM
Venus in 12th could indicate the possible of love,relationships being secret some time. It could indicate a potential of loss of a love,relationships,partners, especially if there is hard aspect transits to it.
I thought Leo Ascendant was a nice Ascendant to have. It can seem confident and outgoing.
I never read anything about learning through osmosis for Moon in 9th. It could be an instinct for teaching,religion,philosophy,foreign matters. the experience of the mother could involving those things.
Mercury opposite Neptune/Jupiter in Sag could be good for intuitive,imaginative,idealistic,big picture way of thinking
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 12:13 AMYeah, I have never really had love out in the open-the last closest time was long distance and over the freakin internet lol. Another thing that's weird is that I have better friendships over long distance. This could also be merc in 11th square neptune in 9th, no?
"I thought Leo Ascendant was a nice Ascendant to have. It can seem confident and outgoing. " Yeah, I do like my asc lol.
"I never read anything about learning through osmosis for Moon in 9th. It could be an instinct for teaching,religion,philosophy,foreign matters. the experience of the mother could involving those things."
Really? I've read that about this moon on a lot of sites. And my mother has always worked in education and was a teacher for 20 years. My roots are also in another country. But in terms of the moon, would you say Moon in the 8th could be confused with having Mars/Saturn in Scorpio in the 4th? That also confuses me because I do relate to a lot of 8th house themes (but I also have three Pluto trines, which could also create a lot of intensity).
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 6:25 PM
Thanks for responding, Paul
Yeah...Equal house system seems like a logical one to use. It works for every latitude including the polar regions. Once it gets to the North and South Pole, the Ascendant is always 0'00 Aries any way. Therefore in the equal house system, all houses would start 0'00 of the zodiac sign.
"however many who champion Koch and Placidus would argue that the extreme latitudes bring with it extremes in life which would account for the extremes in house size."
Yeah, and there are people that live in latitudes higher than 66 degrees, and the Koch and Placidus house system don't work at all there. They completely break down because they are not designed for those polar regions. I use Solar Fire,and it automatically calculates those charts with equal houses.
What would they say about people that have missing houses or no houses like many people born in Murmansk, Russia which is located 68 North,and so in polar region?
Like Equal House and Whole Sign House systems,Campanus house system doesn't break down in the polar regions either. I knew an astrologer that used Campanus. He's the only person that I knew that used it.
here is a chart of Murmansk,Russia in the Campanus house system. No houses.
This is when the Ascendant is in Sagittarius at 5:08 pm with only 1st and 7th houses present
i134.photobucket.com/albums/...dant.gif
then 1 minute later at 5:09 pm, the Ascendant is in Sagittarius
and there are no houses present
i134.photobucket.com/albums/...dant.gif
I find polar house charts very fascinating.
here is some info on Campanus:
Campanus
The prime vertical (the great circle taking in the zenith and east point on the horizon) is divided into twelve, and these divisions are projected on to the ecliptic along great circles that take in the north and south points on the horizon. It is named after Johannes Campanus.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hous...trology%29
From such a perspective, the system that comes closest to that of Manilius, which may even have been the one to which he referred, is the Campanus system, because this also rejects a direct division of the ecliptic in favour of the prime vertical, the great circle which cuts the east and west points of the horizon and passes through the zenith and nadir at right-angles to the observer's meridian. This is divided into twelve equal sections with the corresponding intersection with the ecliptic taken as the house cusps. Although this system is attributed to Johannes Campanus, a prominent 13th century mathematician, it was used by Al-Biruni in the 11th century under the name 'the system of Hermes', suggesting a much earlier, unknown origin.
The point in favour of Campanus is that it readily lends itself to a three dimensional view of space by emphasizing the planet's position in relation to the horizon and meridian at the place of birth - hence there is a subtle shift of perspective in which the houses are not simply projected onto the zodiac, but rather the zodiac is viewed through the houses as determined by the local sphere. The point against it, is that by undermining the role of the ecliptic, the symbolic connection of the Sun's orbit around the earth is weakened and some would see this as a more fundamental origin to house meanings. A more practical disadvantage is that Campanus is highly sensitive to distorted angles at extreme latitudes.
The latter problem is perhaps the main reason why Campanus has never been a real contender in universal house systems, but has always remained a popular choice for those who reject the most favored methods. In 1985 it was claimed to be the most preferred system in England after Placidus ([5] ) and it was greatly endorsed by Dane Rudhyar who saw it as an ideal approach to 'person-centered' astrology because of the acknowledgement that it gave to 'the space at the centre of which the individual stands'.
www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob3.html
I would love to meet people born in the polar regions and do their charts. It would be a great learning experience.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 6:26 PM
"then 1 minute later at 5:09 pm, the Ascendant is in Sagittarius
and there are no houses present "
correction: The Ascendant is in Gemini and there are no houses present
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 8:05 AMI'd ship my Mars from Aries to Taurus, conjunct it with Venus and become a full time artist. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 2:06 PMIf you ever got anything done, that is! Speaking as a Taurus-y, Taurus-y Taurus... At least that Aries Mars has some serious energy!! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 3:09 AMhah! so true, I am lazy enough as it is. I think I have lard house in the 12th ass... Some lard lesson ahead..
But I like the idea of the obssessive basement artist, only goes out of its shell for inspiration, and tea, or to urinate. I think a mars venus conjunction in taurus, opposing pluto saturn, trine neptune, wow, who needs needs, the needs are needed by meeting of needless to say needles of the subconcious sewing machine. Mars in aries annoys me, it wouldnt annoy me if I didnt have mars in aries. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 3:34 AMLOL!
nephos ~
Reading this is a great way to end and start my day ~ hilarious! -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:29 AMLOL, indeed. I kinda feel the same about my Gemini planets(Moon conjunct Mars conjunct Jupiter).
I'd never leave the house if those bees wouldn't be buzzing me non-stop.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 10:59 AMAnd Cheers to you, too, nephos! Bottoms up! Ahhhh........
Astrology is looking clearer already. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 11:23 AMlol, clearly
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 11:25 AMwhats astrology?
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 7:37 PMIn my chart, everything else seems to be fine... However I wish I didn't have the Venus square Jupiter/Uranus.... That aspect is a major contributor to some of my problems...
I wouldn't want to lose my Jupiter/Uranus trines (to Sun, MC, Mercury)... So I guess I'd just move Venus... I can still take Venus in Virgo, but in later degrees. Later degrees of Venus in Leo would be fine... Better yet Venus in Cancer will be good too, as long as we keep it out of reach of Saturn/Pluto...
This is all I can come up with now.
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Sat, October 3, 2009 - 8:02 PMhi viki,
i'm pretty happy with my chart. i think i'm a little crazy but i'm used to it by now. ok, i don't have much technical astrology knowledge at ALL so bear with me. i think i have a strong saturn placement; in taurus, 10th house, basicaly opposite of a huge stellium of conjuncted water/scorpio/4th house stuff. i love my saturn because i think that it (along with my aquarius moon) has probably saved my life many times. almost everything else in my chart is water. lots and lots of heavy, deep water and that little bit of solid earth has been a very necessary island for me many times, you know? in fact, now that i think about it; if i HAD to change something in my chart i would probably add a little more earth. i think someone who replied to your post wrote about finding more people who have the planets/elements you feel that you're missing or would like more of. that's probably a good idea...anyway, thanks for the post...interesting...
juliet -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 4:55 AMI wouldn't change any aspect of my chart. Its one thing to sit and imagine "what if I had this" or "what if this sign was only a few degrees along" but it defeats our purpose here. Our purpose is to challenge what he have, what we are , fall on our face and rise again. That is REAL growth, at least as we currently know it.
I won't buy in to the idea that everyone's birth chart has equalizing and balancing points. There CAN be balancing points if an individual chooses to harness them. Many do not. Pedophile child abusers , as was suggested, have not persued balance. They have all but destroyed it. When innocent life is seriously crippled there is no equalization. Not in human terms. The challenge to challenge oneself is simply to much for many people to endure.
Adolf Hitler would not face the music in his absolute moment of truth. He put a bullet in his own head to avoid embarrassment. Napoleon faced ultimate failure and he was able to build a small army to make one last push from scratch after being exiled to an island with almost zero resources. Saddam Hussein never found any dignity. He cowered, ran and hid in a hole when forced to face his music. He was found, tried and excecuted for his travesties. Mohammed Atta had a severe measure of the puritan in his chart. Many planets conjunct Pluto in Virgo square the moon in Sagittarius. A chart that bleeds intolerance and dedication. He was never able to release his hatred of Western culture in a more objective light. His strict adherance to radical Islam clouded his judgement and eventually inspired his unrelenting devotion to striking Western Culture through the heart. He led a rag-tag group of jihadists in the execution of now the most infamous attack on an enemy known to humankind. He piloted American Airlines Flight 11 into the north tower of the World Trade Center, allegedly. Difficult to retrieve pulverized human remains for positive identification from a 20+ton chunk of aluminum that was itself pulverized in a 470mph collision with a skyscraper, then burned to oblivion and crushed under hundreds of tons of rubbel that collapsed at near the speed of sound.
so yea, we have it in us all to find A balance. But to say there is balance in every chart alignment, well.............human choice is not withstanding
I have to say Yoda hinted towards an important point. Human nature is a bitch................. -
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 5:13 AMHi Zayne. Yes, of course it defeats our purpose here - that was the purpose of the topic! I like to go to a Mary Poppins kind place in my head sometimes, and ignore the brutality of the world - and if only I could rearrange some of my chart I could live in that place all the time.....ahhhhh..... I can handle the 'growth' part of life in doses that involve a spoonful of sugar - and for me the sugar is often fantasy - hence the topic! Hope that makes sense!
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Re: chance to rearrange your chart!
Mon, October 5, 2009 - 8:24 AMHmm, I would approach this as like that question "what moment in your life would you take back/re do if you could?"
If I changes a few things in a favorable way, they may interact different and actually make my life end up worse!
Plus what if there are hidden planets and influences still.. what would they catalyze with the change?! 0_o
Otherwise I think I would like some houses to have planets congenial to them instead of empty.
I might move my node away from my Gemini Asc and put that communication somewhere helpful. It seem stagnant and unhelpful in that position. Maybe add some earth into my chart through a planet/ house combo. Though mercury is probably kept well in check in Scorpio.
One glib move and its the "sting!" bucko!