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I've touched on this topic briefly in another thread, but I want to give it some air time to consider it more.
I have a theory that the most important or pressing issues will be found by study of the aspects first and foremost. Perhaps we could redefine the most important issues (in relation to natal chart interpretation) by study of the aspects ONLY.
It has been my experience that the study of the aspects appear to reveal the most pressing or important issues of the individiual REGARDLESS of what sign those planets are in.
I appreciate this is controversial but I would like people to consider their natal charts by looking only at their aspects, and ignoring the signs/houses. Many may scoff and not attempt this as they KNOW they are very Piscean. But wait, check, is Neptune powerfully aspecting planets instead?
If this theory is correct it would mean that the reason we believe in the forms of astrology we do, regardless of house system and regardless of whether that be the sidereal or western zodiac, the same planets would be in the same aspects and would explain why we believe in them. We're both reading the same thign and just don't realise.
I have a theory that the most important or pressing issues will be found by study of the aspects first and foremost. Perhaps we could redefine the most important issues (in relation to natal chart interpretation) by study of the aspects ONLY.
It has been my experience that the study of the aspects appear to reveal the most pressing or important issues of the individiual REGARDLESS of what sign those planets are in.
I appreciate this is controversial but I would like people to consider their natal charts by looking only at their aspects, and ignoring the signs/houses. Many may scoff and not attempt this as they KNOW they are very Piscean. But wait, check, is Neptune powerfully aspecting planets instead?
If this theory is correct it would mean that the reason we believe in the forms of astrology we do, regardless of house system and regardless of whether that be the sidereal or western zodiac, the same planets would be in the same aspects and would explain why we believe in them. We're both reading the same thign and just don't realise.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 5:59 AMWell.... I guess it's aninteresting thought but I don't think it rings very true.
It doesn't fit myself or the people I know really. I think the signs impact come in clearly.
A good example is John Frusciante, a musicial genius and guitarist who was deep down in a a heroin/cocaine addiction through out the 90's and almost didn't make it but managed to do so and now lives a productive life living and breathing music.
He is a pisces sun, venus and midheaven and the only aspects he has to neptune is one square to mercury and a trine to venus and midheaven. So to overlook his prominent pisces influences and attribute his neptunian issues to his mercury square neptune simply doesn't add up for me.
And like I said going through myself and the people I know and know of I don't think the theory seems water proof... -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:14 AMSugarmoon
Do you not think those aspects would produce musical ability even in Aries? I'm not saying we should discard signs entirely just that you COULD and still be pretty accurate.
I really wanna explore thus in greater detail. It came to me when O Ryan did my chart in sidereal. I thought I'm not a Taurus so this isn't accurate. I'm more fluid and cereberal with poor attention and more scattered. But then, I thought, I DO have a mercury sun conjunction opposition Uranus...
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:08 AMHi paul,
Disclaimer: I'm just a bewildered beginner so my opinions aren't worth that much to me let alone old hands ;)
It seems to me that the planetary aspects are the only part of astrology that are absolute "truth".
House systems seem to me to be all distortions in one way or another; it's a case of choosing which distortion you are prepared to put up with for your purposes or preference (probably more about familiarity or convention than raw mathematics or astronomy). I can't go along with any of it completely for this reason although I know it "works".
Signs are just as problematic...we could just as easily come up with a ten sign system or a four sign system and I'm sure it would still work after a few millennia of observation, right?
Left with only planetary aspects we just have the tensions and harmonies between to contend with regardless of how and where we express them...free will and all that...to me this is where astrology is strongest and avoids those horrible cookbook definitions of planets in signs and houses which I'm sure are just as unreliable for others as they are for me. I barely identify with any of them...but the aspects? Hell yes!
Philip -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:38 AMphilip
EVERYONES opinion is valid provided it is based upon their understanding and experience of astrology!
"It seems to me that the planetary aspects are the only part of astrology that are absolute "truth". "
That's an interesting idea. Of course, astronomically they ARE the only part that is real, we could if we wanted assign any number of zodaic signs to the constellations, as in fact several other astrologers (hello klaudio) have suggested. However, I'm not sure there are any 'absolute' truths in anything, just approximations of truth.
"I barely identify with any of them...but the aspects? Hell yes! "
Thanks Philip! Really intersting observation.
Can I make one suggestion? Try your chart out with the Sidereal zodiac as well.
You say you're a beginner so if you're not familiar, what we use is the tropical zodiac. However, astronomically, due to a phenomeona called the precession of the equinoxes, the observable zodiac does not line up to what we currently use as the zodiac. The 'true' zodiac, in terms of astronomy, is the sideral zodiac and is the zodiac employed primarly by jyotish, or to be simplistic, indian, astrologers.
If you're interested find out more here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_zodiac
For the record MOST people on this tribe use tropical and I have always found it to be the most 'exact', but as I say this may well be due to the fact that what I think are the energies from the signs are in fact the aspects. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 10:07 AM"The 'true' zodiac, in terms of astronomy, is the sideral zodiac and is the zodiac employed primarly by jyotish, or to be simplistic, indian, astrologers.
If you're interested find out more here: "
I have to respond to this:
Even though the the sidereal zodiac is a star-based zodiac,it is not completely aligned with the constellations because it ignores the fact that the zodiac constellations' sizes are unequal instead of equal and total 13 instead of 12,especially with it having Ophiuchus located between Scorpius and Sagittarius. Scorpius is a very small constellation. Virgo is the largest constellation.
I am actually started to prefer the blending of the tropical zodiac and the constellation zodiac.
I think confusion happens when we refer to the tropical zodiac or the sidereal zodiac as the constellations. In some books, I have read astrologers refer to them as that.
I will never discontinue the use of tropical zodiac, but I will pay attention to the tropical zodiac-constellation blend. I believe that the stars are significant in Astrology. If we use both tropical zodiac and the stars that are in the constellations,it would make sense to consider the constellations having an influence. I don't think it makes sense to consider that my tropical Scorpio Mercury is conjunct the beta Libra star,Zuben Eschamali but ignore the fact that my Mercury is in the constellation of Libra. The same with my tropical Pisces Moon conjunct the Alpha Aquarius star,Sadalmelik and the theta Aquarius star,Ancha and ignore that my Moon is in the constellation of Aquarius.
This explains how the Sidereal Zodiac is not the same as the constellation zodiac
therealastrology.com/HTML/AS...116.html
I was born on October 29th.
Sun doesn't go into Libra constellation until October 31st. I missed the cutoff by 2 days,and so I am near the end of the Virgo constellation.
Maybe my Sun conjunct South Eris Node in constellation of Virgo indicates that I was meant to stir up controversy by debating with the Sidereal Zodiac astrologers and showing them that my Sun doesn't fit neatly into their system whenever they start preaching that the sidereal zodiac is the one and only true zodiac. hahahahaha
my tropical Sagittarius Imum Coeli is in Ophiuchus and not Scorpius even though it's in Scorpio in Sidereal Zodiac.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 10:11 AMRaymond
I agree with your post (particularly that in reality there are 13 constellations) but because Philip said he was a beginner I didn't want to scare him off with information overload. Hence being overly simple about it! -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 10:34 AMoh ok...I see
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 10:46 AMThanks Paul
Raymond beat me to it and then you beat me to it too ;)
I've always been more comfortable with the seasonally based way of dividing up the zodiac simply because it sounds much more like the oldest and most human/earthly reasons for using astrology in the first place i.e. daily life for prehistoric people...I like the idea of "Cardinal Spring" = Vernal equinox and the way that this particular time will endow people born at this time with certain traits that this part of the year would reflect (enter all your favourite Aries keywords here). So for example being a Sagittarius Sun would make me a "Death of autumn" person, if you see what I mean.
That said I'm now off to make yet another mountain of paper with regard to Jyotish astrology and I'll let you know in a year or two LOL. Thanks both of you for the input and suggestions...scare me off? Nah I can't get enough ;)
Philip
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:22 AMI think it is worth entertaining. I agree that at some point considering signs and houses may clarify some things that might not be apprehensible through the aspects alone, but basically I think that looking at the aspects in and of themselves initially is not a bad idea at all. Get that information first and then see how it gets fleshed out with other considerations. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:32 AMAmiable
"Get that information first and then see how it gets fleshed out with other considerations. "
yes that's my thoughts exactly. In other words the signs and houses just flesh out more information and give the aspects a different 'timbre', but that ultimately the major complexes and thought patterns etc are to be found in the apsects. I am not saying that the signs aren't 'real' or anything like that, just that what they offer is very much secondary to the aspects. This is what I've noticed at least.
I'd be interested if anyone else has noticed this and whether it would account for the house system differences and zodiac (tropical/sidereal) differences. -
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Unsu...
Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 6:48 AMIn order of importance, I'd say aspects are number one on my list. I personally relate a lot more to my aspects vs. house placements or signs, though I think they all meld together and make us unique beings. I could go back and forth between my Moon being in the 5th vs. the 6th (depending on house system, three of my planets can be moved), but my Moon aspects are pretty descriptive of who I am. I also always wondered why I was very water-like, like my sister who is a Pisces Sun, and when I first learned that I had a Cancer ASC, it immediately made sense. I think the ASC in particular is very important in understanding yourself better. And even my DESC is descriptive of the type of men I am attracted to. The planets seem slightly empty or naked without house placements and signs. But I think we all have bits of the entire zodiac and chart in us, it's just that certain areas are more important to us or given as a test or burden on journey. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 7:00 AMThis seems to be a huge trend in astrology lately, particularly with "academic" astrology. I think this is mainly because aspects are something which can be objectively measured- there is no ambiguity like there is with signs or houses. To me though it is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater if you ignore the other parts. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 7:03 AMAt the moment O'Ryan, no one is proposing that.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 7:04 AMO Ryan
I would have thought so too. However, have you actually ever tried to interpret your chart based solely on the aspects just a test. Of course I'm not saying that we should do this and ignore the signs/houses completely, but as a test it can be interesting if you go through each aspect just how clearly defined a picture you'll have of yourself and it could well be that what you're applying to a sign or house is actually the work of an aspect of a planet of similar energy. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 11:07 PMYeah, I got really into aspects in particular about 10 years ago after swallowing Sue Tompkin's book whole and since then have a map of my aspects pretty much etched into my brain. I still need to work on the quintiles, septiles and noviles some more though, never really got a satisfactory understanding of them.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 8:54 AM
it's not that controversial
that's the way the Cosmobiologists work with aspects -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 8:56 AM"that's the way the Cosmobiologists work with aspects "
I didn't know that Raymond! That's really interesting. I'm going to google it now and find out a bit more about it.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 8:57 AM
in cosmobiology,
the use of midpoints seem to take the place of houses
in the hamburg school,
they even use planetary pictures
for example like Sun + Neptune - Mars = Uranus
or
Sun/Neptune = Mars/Uranus -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 8:59 AMOh my, I am finding the planet-math/equation thing very intriguing!
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 9:02 AMraymond
I never knew that. I knew they placed more importance on midpoints, but I didn't realise that they didn't use houses.
I didn't think cosmobiology did anything outside of medical astrology, but not sure that's true now... -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 9:42 AM
Cosmobiologists were bigtime into events besides medical stuff.
Cosmobiology is an offshoot of Hamburg School. They also used the cosmogram for synastric purposes.
It was said that Reinhold Ebertin wasn't allowed to use the hypothetical transneptunians of the Hamburg School,and so he left them out. He was former member of the Hamburg School.
I have COSMOBIOLOGY FOR THE 21ST CENTURY by Eleonora Kimmel. It's a book that goes over events,synastry,and medical stuff. The only thing that I don't like about the book is that she uses Transpluto which is not an object that is proven to exist. It's based on coordinates that astronomers have ruled out due to errors. Clyde Tombaugh was using the calculations of Percival Lowell to look for transpluto when he discovered Pluto. Pluto had nothing to do with those calculations. Tombaugh just discovered by chance or maybe divine providence or both. Philip Sedgwick talks about the issue with Transpluto too.
In Cosmobiology, the conjunction,opposition,square,semisquare,and sesquiquadrate are used for events.
Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrologers view the Midheaven and Ascendant differently.
The Midheaven is viewed as the most important part of the chart. They tend to see it as the individual self,ego consciousness,the soul. They view the Ascendant as having to do with one's environment as well as relationships.
Reinhold Ebertin wrote a book called COSMIC MARRIAGE. He includes regular aspects in synastry as well as sign placements of Moon,Descendant. Of course,he discusses midpoint pictures in synastry.
Reinhold Ebertin was also into the fixed stars. He was actually continuing the work of his mother,Elsbeth who was also an astrologer. His son,Baldur is also an astrologer.
I like Cosmobiology, but I do believe that houses are worth using. I don't think that they should be thrown out.
I also like the Hamburg School's use of planetary pictures, mainly the midpoints in conjunction/opposition to midpoints. I don't believe in using hypothetical transneptunians though. They have unnatural orbits. They are perfectly circular.
Ebertin's COMBINATION OF STELLAR INFLUENCES is like the Cosmobiology Bible. It has some good stuff on biological,medical correspondences of aspects. My main beef with it is that it tends to be a bit negative about Saturn and Neptune configurations and to some extent Uranus and Pluto too.
I think that Ebertin interpret Moon=Saturn/Neptune midpoint so damned negatively because of Adolf Hitler who had that midpoint picture. I have that one too. However, so does Dane Rudhyar, the father of humanistic astrology.
I didn't like what was written for Mercury=Sun/Neptune like little intelligence,lack of objectivity. there was also mental disturbances,speech defects which I guess fit me because I do have neurological differences and speech problems that were severe in early childhood.
Saturn/Neptune and Sun/Neptune midpoints are viewed as midpoints associated with significant medical problems too, and so that was part of the reasons that those points are
Saturn/Neptune is the chronic illness midpoint
Sun/Neptune is the point of weakness midpoint
with moon as mother, my mom does have serious health problems that include diabetes and hepatitis C. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 8:05 PM"Ebertin's COMBINATION OF STELLAR INFLUENCES is like the Cosmobiology Bible. It has some good stuff on biological,medical correspondences of aspects. My main beef with it is that it tends to be a bit negative about Saturn and Neptune configurations and to some extent Uranus and Pluto too." Amin to that.
I could feel the dark clouds over my head while I was reading the descriptions for my Moon/Neptune=Moon/Saturn=Mars/Neptune=Mars/Saturn=Jupiter/Neptune=Jupiter/Saturn=Sun descriptions. Oh, they're also opposite my MC, so it was double bummer.
For Sun=Mars/Neptune I read one article-I don't think it was in Ebertin's book-that said some guy who lead a mass suicide had it. Also, all these involving Saturn and Neptune to the Sun were said to lead to dissolving of the body, circulatory problems, weak vitality-which is mostly true, though and other "nice" things.
The Venus/Neptune=Venus/Saturn=Pluto descriptions bugged me the most. they basically said I always fall for the wrong person, and build insane obsessions...UGH.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Fri, October 9, 2009 - 11:39 PMThis idea of only using the hard aspects is very strong in the Western Sidereal school also. I wonder if Ebertin's focus on these reflects his rather heavy and fatalistic tone. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:08 AMP.S. Does "aspects" imply declinations?
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 7:33 PM
Ebertin's Cosmobiology was offshot off Uranian Astrology
so Uranian Astrology was also heavy and fatalistic
check out Witte's Rulebook of Planetary Pictures
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 6:49 AMI have thought along these lines for a long time but cannot for the life of me write it or explain it in as comprehensible way as you have Paul... Well done -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 12:54 PMThanks nephos!
I've been thinking I might ask for interpretations based just on aspects to see how accurate they are. I'm hoping it'll be accurate. Imagine then how much more so if you included signs and houses after that! -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 4:29 PMThe Aspects would seem to remain intact long after precession has off-centered everything. Why not start there anyway, the Geomertry is one of the most favorite things I love about Astrology, checking the next Sign is alway good too and comparing it - maybe a differant meaning might be more benificial.
CONJUNCTION - planets (including the Sun and Moon) in close proximity to each other. A conjunction indicates strength, talents and abilities.
OPPOSITION - planets 180 degrees "opposite" each other. An opposition is an indication of energies which must be brought into balance, or a tension which can produce varying effects.
TRINE - planets approximately 120 degrees apart. A trine indicates a "great blessing" or an extraordinary gift, and reveals components of our self which co-operate with one another producing extraordinary results.
GRAND TRINE - three or more planets which form a triangle in which the planets are approximately 120 degrees apart. A Grand Trine indicates a supreme blessing.
SEXTILE - planets 60 degrees apart. A sextile is an indication of opportunity.
GRAND SEXTILE - A complete circle of divine protection and transcendent opportunity.
SQUARE - planets 90 degrees apart. A square indicates an obstacle which must be overcome. Squares indicate deeply rooted psychological complexes, repressions and denials all of which operate invisibly (unlike oppositions which represent visible conflicts) and which must be overcome.
GRAND CROSS - 4 planets each being approximately 90 degrees away from each other with two pairs each forming "oppositions". This configuration looks like an actual square composed of four outside lines with two diagonal intersecting lines (oppositions) in the center . A Grand Cross indicates extraordinary obstacles which must be overcome.
QUINTILE - planets 72 degrees apart. A quintile indicates a special talent.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 7:41 PM
I'd add the biquintile with the quintile. they are both 5th harmonics,and so they have to do with creativity and talent. Johannes Kepler devised both of them.
biquintile is twice the quintile
when two planets that are in quintile are biquintiled to a 3rd planet, it forms a 5th harmonic isosceles triangle called a golden yod. Adolf Hitler had one. Saturn and Neptune were in quintile,and they biquintile a Moon,and so Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 1:24 AM>>when two planets that are in quintile are biquintiled to a 3rd planet, it forms a 5th harmonic isosceles triangle called a golden yod. Adolf Hitler had one. Saturn and Neptune were in quintile,and they biquintile a Moon,and so Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint
<<
I have a similar aspect. Moon quintile Venus, Venus quintile Mars + Moon biquintile Mars. So, my Moon/Mars midpoint conjuncts Venus. I wonder when I will start going insane... I think in Hitlers case, that multi-aspect could be one of the main reasons why he was such a great speaker. Moon in the 3rd house, and then add Saturn to that and Neptune. Well, you know what they say. Never trust a artist when it comes to politics. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 4:49 AMDon't worry. You won't go insane
that's a really nice configuration to have you, good for not only creativity,but art and passion, passionate loving,being assertive in love,relationships. I wish that I had that configuration. heh
as for Hitler, well he was able to made his idealism into concrete reality which was an unfortunate thing. that's one of the things that Saturn/Neptune can be about.
Eris also aspected it for an 5th harmonic quadrilateral, and so ideology,equality issues was involved,the racism/ethnic bigotry that Hitler was known for fueled that warped idealism that manifested into death.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 3:21 PMAspects are universal in nature. they6 are not dependent on a system to interpret them.
Prioritizing astrology principles based on Aspects and other "Universal" concepts are what I do in "Universal Astrology" - a system i devised last year.
These universal concepts are THE REASON all *systems* work - because regardless of sign and techniques of interpretation, all systems are to accommodate these things. Retrograde, combustion, Lunar phase, Sun/moon angularity, Moon phase, other lunatin cycels of planets are other examples of Universal astrology principles.
These things are mainly based on astronomy -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 11:44 PMAspects sometimes help clear up the whole house system confusion for me. In the whole sign system my sun/venus is in the 12th, and the descriptions seem accurate, but if you consider sun opp. neptune first and then look at how they behave in the 11th/5th houses, there seems to be a more comprehensive view.
So I could see why you'd want to look at them first-that could be a good starting point in choosing whatever house system works best for you and for how your transits are operating. I do think signs have been just as important for me with transits (I know you're not saying they're unimportant-just adding to the convo). For instance, when I look at my transits, Sun in Cancer opp. Pluto in Capricorn was definitely as much as letting go of a past (cancer opp cap) for me as much as it was issues with authority figures (sun opp pluto). So that could be evidence that the sign is just as important.
But for a basic foundation of understainding the natal, yeah, it seems aspects should be considered separately at first.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 12:55 AM"as for Hitler, well he was able to made his idealism into concrete reality which was an unfortunate thing. that's one of the things that Saturn/Neptune can be about. "
I think its a good point to be made. Ultimately regardless of aspect, its how we deal with that aspect that our free will comes in and is really what determines what kind of person we are. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:46 AMYes, I have an Ascendant Saturn/Neptune midpoint picture somewhere.. But even later on, astrologers working wih midpoints have christened the Saurn/Neptune midpoint as the 'sickener' - a point of morbity in a clinical sense. Similarly Mars/Saturn is seen linked very much to death. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:47 AMHitler had more than just Saturn/Neptune midpoint confiurations going on in his chart anyway. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:49 AMProbably we should not do away with houses and signs altogether. To get rid of Sings would certainly get rid of a lot of 'sign-ism' - one of the reasons I beleive, why Ebertin ishes to distance his 'cosmo-biology' from newspaper astrology.
Paul
What orb would you give to the 'major-player' aspects in a chart? -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:57 AM"What orb would you give to the 'major-player' aspects in a chart? "
I dunno nexus. I'm not too comfortable giving any planet too wide an orb, but I'd play it by ear with things like that, if there's a planet that seems quite focal and its making a wide orb to another planet I'd at least consider it, but I'm not too comfortable setting any rules on it. I kind of like tight aspects wherever possible though.
What are your thoughts on it?
Using only aspects would certainly remove sign-ism, but it would only be replaced by aspect-ism. Some people seem to be just attracted to 'isms' of any kind whether it be sexism, racism, sign-ism, asepct-ism or any other kind. I don't think we should abandon signs altogether though.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:01 AMHELLO! Pretty soon we are going to eliminate everything. LOL!
<buffing nails> So, what are we talking about? You know, it might help if someone took a significant aspect and just illustrated this and then added on signs and houses to see how much of a friggin difference they make. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:06 AM"HELLO! Pretty soon we are going to eliminate everything. LOL! "
Soon I'll have a theory that Leos are quiet and reserved, not like those crazy Virgo performers who keep hogging the spotlight. You know its true.
"You know, it might help if someone took a significant aspect and just illustrated this and then added on signs and houses to see how much of a friggin difference they make."
Go for it then! ;p
The aspect that kind of did it for me was my sun-mercury conjunction opposition uranus. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:12 AMHere we are.
Dissect. Why are his songs and image so Uranian?
www.astrotheme.com/portrait...Hs2y7.htm
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:15 AM<Soon I'll have a theory that Leos are quiet and reserved, not like those crazy Virgo performers who keep hogging the spotlight. You know its true. >
Uh, yah. I'll tell you ~ all that Virgo attention-seeking ~ got the 12th House Jupiter conjunct Virgo Asc and the Mercury in Virgo. It is obvious that it is a total hog. Now with the 12H Leo conjunct Pluto ~ totally about the background and underground and out of it places. Sure, makes sense to me. Doesn't it to you?
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:05 AM'Using only aspects would certainly remove sign-ism, but it would only be replaced by aspect-ism. Some people seem to be just attracted to 'isms' of any kind whether it be sexism, racism, sign-ism, asepct-ism or any other kind. I don't think we should abandon signs altogether though.'
I suppose you have a point. Human nature and all that. I have a book that links 'isms' to our amygdalas in our brains, but I am not about to get into a debate about which plaents, sign or espects opur amygdalas might be ruled by.
The midpoint schools always narrow orbs down to apsects of within 2 degrees of orb, but we all know of radix charts where certain aspects seem to be very srong, even hough wide.
Recently, for example, I saw Gary Nueman's chart, on a thread elsewhere. Gary Nueman is all water - Pisces, Moon conjunct Asc in Scorpio, so why are his songs all about robots and such impersonal themes? Well, Uranus squares his Moon and possibly his Ascendant too, but the aspects in each case were wide - about 7 degrees.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:46 AM
right
Adolt Hitler had stuff
Sun conjunct Makemake
Moon square Sedna
Varuna oppose Midheaven
in Right Ascension,
Moon square Eris -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:58 AMRaymond
Do you really use all those centaurs and dwarf planets etc like varuna and makemake?
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:55 AMwow, hitler also had the Saturn-Neptune conjunction? another thing we have in common..lol -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 3:06 AMor some midpoint configuration involving Saturn/Neptune? Whatever. Close enough...lol
does saturn-neptune/moon-mars-jupiter midpoint cluster conjunct Sun and opposite AC give any clues to "ideas coming to life"?
Oh, and I guess no house system also rules out any debates on the "free will" issue. that's a great plus right there... I mean, with no houses to show the areas of life in which the planets will play out means you can do whatever the fuck you want, right?
You know what..I think I'm finally getting why in the Bible astrology is counted among the "workings of the Devil", and why so many astrology sites mentioned in their introductory notes that "study of astrology" should start from a strong belief in God...you definitely go crazy by trying to take the reins of "creation" into your own hands. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 6:55 AMForgive me if this sounds obvious or silly but having thought some more on this...does anyone treat the houses/signs as areas which blend one into another evenly as do the colours of the spectrum? Surely the difference between 29 deg Pisces and 0 deg Aries is no greater than that between 28 deg and 29 Pisces...it would be hard to separate the one shade of purple from the next.
Still clueless and just talking off the top of my head (maybe even out of bits never designed for talking) but maybe we just tend towards clockwork style lines and divisions more than we should and the reality is that one sign or house naturally "becomes" the next gradually? If that is true then maybe aspects are bound to be far more useful and obvious to our mathematical way of thinking than signs or houses which might be better understood in a more intuitive way just using the quarters as a rough guide only and not the actual cusps?
Sorry if I'm missing the point here
Philip -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:11 AM"Surely the difference between 29 deg Pisces and 0 deg Aries is no greater than that between 28 deg and 29 Pisces"
Yeah I think lots of people see it that way, or at least recognise that if you're born on the cusp you may have a handful of 'shared' traits or something similar. People dn't seem to apply it as much to the houses though. I don't take the houses too seriously cos so many people have differing viewpoints on them. I tend to recognise certain planets as being 'definitely' in one house or another, for example my Sun in Gemini is very much in the 8H, but my Mars in the 8H could equally belong in the 9H, it has a touch of both and I'm sure I could experiment with house systems often enough until I find one where it IS in the 9th House.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:23 AM"Forgive me if this sounds obvious or silly but having thought some more on this...does anyone treat the houses/signs as areas which blend one into another evenly as do the colours of the spectrum?"
That's the way I like to look at signs, but houses seem to opertae on more mathematical grounds. That's been my experience anyway.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 7:48 AM
Hitler didn't have Saturn-Neptune conjunction
he had Saturn-Neptune quintile , and his Moon biquintiled that
therefore, he had a golden yod with a corresponding midpoint picture of Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 8:33 AM
I want to mention some stuff in Eleanor Kimmel's Cosmobiology book about the Midheaven. It will show how Midheaven is interpreted differently from mainstream Astrology. After all , Cosmobiology doesn't use houses. Therefore,Midheaven had no connection with 10th house at all.
page 148:
In general, astrologers agree that the Midheaven has a great deal to do with acquiring fame and success. The Midheaven is the place where the perpendicular plane of the meridian of the locality is crossed by the plane of the Sun's motion. This position in any chart refers to the authority and prominence, in particular to the career,the ego-consciousness and spiritual awareness, the aim in life and in the biological correspondence as Reinhold Ebertin describes, the brain proper. The position of the Midheaven has not been sufficiently utilized in the past.
In the Midheaven, all of the energies of the individual are brought together in a certain method. The Midheaven is not only the cusp of the tenth house, but also the point at which the real inner existence and spiritual direction in our lives is found.
In Cosmobiology, Midheaven has a more profound meaning.
as for Midheaven being the brain proper, hmmmmm....I wonder if transneptunian dwarf planet,Haumea square my Midheaven with 3 minutes of arc can be an indicator of my neuro-divergent brain. Another indicator could be my Eris/Node midpoint square my Midheaven with 8 minutes of arc, and that's from my Eris and North Node aspecting the Midheaven.
also I want to point out that the Midheaven isn't necessarily the cusp of the 10th house. This is definitely untrue when it comes to charts in the polar regions where the Midheaven and Ascendant can be in conjunction or in opposition as well as the Midheaven can be below the horizon to the point of the very bottom of the chart.
she wrote some points about the houses
pages 8 - 9
The basic argument still centers on how to divide the zodiac circle, instead of questioning and researching the old established principles (the telescope was invented in 1608, but was not really understood or utilized until about 180 years later!)
Beginning in the late 1700's, three new planets were discovered: Uranus in 1781 by Herschel;Neptune in 1845 by Adams and Leverrrier;,and Pluto in 1930 by Lowell.
These three new planets which were discovered by modern scientific instruments were added to an assumed, man-made structure theory, and through the years astrologers conveniently have found ways to incorporate these new planets into the old house system structures. Why? Do we really need the houses? Is there a way we can compensate for them if we discard them?
Most astrologers agree that the houses are areas of experiences. But, for instance, is there any proof that the planet Pluto in the ninth house means the same thing for everyone? Would it not be more proper to establish, by research, a common tendency emanating from the qualities of Pluto and leave the "flavor and coloring," ect., to the environmental, hereditary, cultural,and national flavors? After all, ice cream is still ice cream even when flavored, and there are more than twelve colors and flavors.
Life has indeed changed since Ptolemy's time. More facts (and planets) have become known; a higher degree of technology is now available to us. This makes the house systems of Ptolemy not invalid, but out of date! Isn't it time for us to adjust? To progress? Shouldn't we incorporate the "new" facts (planets) and technology we have available rather than continue to use arbitrary, fixed,out-of-date patterns and tools?
When an astrologer makes a state such as "the twelfth house is ruled by Neptune, which is located in the eigth house and is making a trine to Uranus in the eleventh house...," it is not actually in line with the original conception since Ptolemy did not know of the "higher octave planets." Thus it does not seem logical to continue to use concepts derived from only partial facts.
She also pointed out that the foundation of the tropical zodiac and the houses came about by unproved theories and arbitrary decisions. (According to history,Ptolemy had many disputes even while he was living.) As a result, astrology has declined in its scientific importance through the centuries, leaving the principles of Ptolemy as the foundation of modern twentieth practices.
Ptolemy was (as mentioned before) a very educated man, practically a genius in his time. He devised the house system utilizing the facts available to him without the benefit of such things as a telescope, or knowledge of the existence of the southern hemisphere.
Lowell didn't discover Pluto. Tombaugh did, using the calculations of Lowell. However,Lowell's calculations were inaccurate. Tombaugh discovered Pluto by chance.
Of course, Pluto is now known to be one of many objects in the kuiper belt region like Ceres,Juno,Pallas,and Vesta are known to be few of many objects in the asteroid belt.
I have decided to stop using modern rulerships and just use the traditional rulers instead. one of the reasons is the dwarf planet situation. If Pluto a dwarf planet rules a sign, what about the 4 other dwarf planets and many others that will be dwarf planets in the future?
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 8:55 AMRaymond
I can't quite see the aspect grid clearly on your chart in your pics, but am I right in suggesting that Uranus doesn't make any major aspect to any planet in your chart? You said;
"I wonder if transneptunian dwarf planet,Haumea square my Midheaven with 3 minutes of arc can be an indicator of my neuro-divergent brain. Another indicator could be my Eris/Node midpoint square my Midheaven with 8 minutes of arc, and that's from my Eris and North Node aspecting the Midheaven."
But i'm thinking that there's likely to be a much more simplistic reason for this 'neuro-divergent' brain as you put it, and I'm wondering if Uranus unaspected isn't the reason. It depends I think on how you view what you describe as 'neuro-divergent', what does that mean exactly and what does it mean to YOU personally? personally I think an unaspected Uranus is a more obvious reason than looking to those dwarf planets and the midheaven. You also lack earth in your chart and perhaps the bucket chart to Saturn in Gemini is also at play here?
Couple of points from that article;
"She also pointed out that the foundation of the tropical zodiac and the houses came about by unproved theories and arbitrary decisions."
Isn't that true of all of astrology though? I don't recall ever reading that ANY theory in astrology has definitively been proven.
"After all, ice cream is still ice cream even when flavored, and there are more than twelve colors and flavors"
A weak argument, after all the sign on the cusp of each house 'flavours' those flavours, so we're at least looking at 144 flavours, that's if we don't take in to consideration the ruler of each house.
Just playing devil's advocate really! -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:42 AM
I think Haumea square Midheaven makes sense though
it is a transneptunian,and so it's more nonconformist,otherworldly compared to the planets including the outerplanets
It's different, unique, considering it's physical,orbital features
in a way, neuro-divergents are like that
I think the transneptunian thing fits with metaphysical orientation of the Indigo,Crystal stuff, but that is something that neuro-divergents have to keep to themselves.
after transneptunian, Pluto was discovered neuro-divergent conditions were starting to get recognized too.
there is nothing simplistic about neuro-divergence. it's very complexed, a paradox....especially when you get into the "twice exceptional" stuff
I believe that fits more with the transneptunians.
from a post that I did
All the planets beyond Saturn are referred to as outerplanets, and so they are related to metaphysical energies. Uranus is the planet of liberation from boundaries as it breaks way with its need for independence,and it is associated with innovation and intuitive flashes. Neptune is the planet of dissolution of boundaries as it pierces the veil to reveal another world,and it is associated with imagination,inspiration, and psychism. Pluto is the planet of elimination of boundaries, and is compared to being the other side. This could be death,afterlife,or could be the subterranean depths of the human psyche. It is possible that Pluto's fellow transneptunian objects could be similar to Pluto. I believe that Pluto and its fellow transneptunians can be energies so metaphysical that they can be hard to handle and can manifest as problems on the physical plane such as serious health problems,psychiatric disorders, and even neurodivergence which are often subtle in their own way and very misunderstood. These aren't necessarily bad things. Neurodivergence tends to be very misunderstood,and it was unknown for a long time. The issues tend to be subtle. They have also been known as hidden handicaps.
With that in mind, I believe that it makes sense that the kuiper belt objects associated with unknown,hidden,subtleties could be indicators for neurodivergence.
tribes.tribe.net/neurodive...05b4f58c4e
it's more than just Haumea square Midheaven ,but that's a 3 minute of arc aspect. That's almost exact. I would say that's a dominant theme in the chart.
I have Haumea conjunct the Ascendant witth 2'10 orb too.
other things can factor like my Sun-Quaoar-Ixion conjunction in 3rd house. Sun in conjunction with 2 transneptunians in 3rd house could fit with the neuro-divergent as well as my father being one, with that conjunction trine my Moon, it could involve not only my brain (some astrologers associate moon as the brain),but also the mother who is also neuro-divergent.
of course there is Mercury too. My Mercury in 3rd squares the transneptunian,Makemake with 2'01 orb. There is also my Mercury,Saturn,Uranus,Sedna in 11th harmonic isosceles trapezoid with corresponding midpoint pictures of Mercury oppose Saturn/Sedna midpoint and Sedna oppose Mercury/Uranus midpoint with 16 and and 17 minutes of arc respectively as well as planetary picture of Mercury/Sedna oppose Saturn/Uranus midpoint with 3 minutes of arc.
there is also Moon square transneptunian Varuna with 10 minutes of arc, which could also fit with the unusual brain. There is also Moon oppose Saturn/Neptune midpoint which fits with brain dysfunctions.
actually Varuna = Moon = Saturn/Neptune.
There is also Mercury conjunct Sun/Neptune midpoint which can indicate weak nerves, speech defects as well as imaginative,visual,picture thinking which fits with Dyslexics. I also have Mercury parallel Neptune which also indicate that, and my Saturn contraparallels...so speech delays,hesitations.
it's a combination of factors -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:21 AM". It depends I think on how you view what you describe as 'neuro-divergent', what does that mean exactly and what does it mean to YOU personally"
It's really hard to explain and describe. If I explain myself, I am afraid that I won't explain it well which can result in misunderstandings.
I will show you numerous things that I agree with because I can strongly relate to them and so those are what neuro-divergence means to me personally. I have written,posted this in blogs,posts before.
the following are theories by Ronald D. Davis who is Dyslexic and Autistic and Dr. Harold N. Levinson , neurologist and psychiatrist who wrote many books on neurodivergent conditions.
Dr. Levinson refers to neuro-divergence as the Dyslexic Syndrome due to the overlapping symptoms,comorbidity of Dyslexia with other neuro-divergent conditions.
Dyslexia is not just a severe reading disorder characterized by reversals. And it is not due to brain damage as traditionally thought for the past century. It is a syndrome of many and varied symptoms affecting over 40 million American children and adults.
Ever since the early 1970's, Dr. Harold Levinson's groundbreaking research has continued to demonstrate that the symptoms of dyslexia or Learning Disabilities (LD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), and related Phobic symptoms are due to a simple signal-scrambling disturbance of inner-ear (cerebellar-vestibular) origin.
In other words, the inner-ear acts as a "fine-tuner" for all motor (balance/coordination/rhythm) signals leaving the brain and all sensory and related cognitive signals entering it. As a result, normal thinking brains will have difficulty processing the scrambled or distorted signals received. And the final symptoms will depend on: (1) the degree of signal-scrambling, (2) the location and function of the varied normal brain centers receiving and having to process these scrambled signals, as well as (3) the brain's compensatory ability for de-scrambling.
By contrast, the brain-damage theorists mistakenly believe that vital processing cells scattered throughout the thinking brains of dyslexics are severely impaired. And thus normally-received signals can't be properly interpreted. Were this brain-damage theory true, then the IQ's of dyslexics would be severely impaired and their prognosis or outcome would remain hopeless — despite all efforts and therapies — since abnormal processing cells within the thinking brain can't be significantly compensated for. And as might have been expected, despite escalating research efforts by gifted scientists, this flawed 100-year-old brain-damage theory has led absolutely nowhere in so far as medical ways of diagnosing, treating, and explaining the dyslexic syndrome.
www.dyslexiaonline.com/inform...is.html
Ronald D. Davis believes that neuro-divergence is connected to being a picture thinker with low threshold for confusion. Because of the overlapping of symptoms,comorbidity of Dyslexia with other neuro-divergent conditions, he refers the neuro-divergence as Dyslexia just like Dr. Levinson does.
Davis theory can be summed up as follows:
All dyslexics are primarily picture-thinkers: they think through mental or sensory imagery, rather than using words, sentences, or internal dialogue (self-talk) in their minds. Because this method of thinking is subliminal – faster than the person can be aware of – most dyslexics are not aware that this is what they’re doing.
Because dyslexics think in pictures or imagery, they tend to use global logic and reasoning strategies, looking at the ‘big picture’ to understand the world around them. They tend to be very good at strategizing, creative endeavors, hands-on activities, and solving real world objective problems, but tend to be poor with word-based sequential, linear, step-by-step reasoning. When you look at a picture of a dog, you do not move your mind from tail to haunches to legs to shoulders to head to ears to nose to figure out you have a dog. You see all parts at once, and conclude ‘dog’. If most or all of your thinking is in pictures, you would become accustomed to figuring things out by looking at the whole object or situation at once.
Thinking primarily with images, dyslexics also tend to develop very strong imaginations, and to use a picture or feeling based reasoning process to solve problems rather than a verbal one. If they are at first confused (or intrigued), they will mentally turn an object around to look at it from different viewpoints or angles. From this thought process, they develop many unique abilities and talents.
Spiral Go to the www.lesblind.is web site for a visual demonstration of the effects of disorientation. (Link opens new window)
This ability can also be the foundation for a problem. When disoriented, the individual will perceive their own thinking as reality. Most people experience a state of disorientation when looking at an optical illusion, or when exposed to misleading sensory stimuli, such as that created by virtual reality amusement rides. But dyslexics become disoriented on a day-to-day basis; it is their natural mental response to any confusing sensory information - as well as to creative problem-solving.
Dyslexics tend to have difficulty with unreal and symbolic objects, such as letters and numerals. In their effort to comprehend symbols as they would an automobile engine or an engineering diagram, they can become disoriented. This leads to the familiar symptoms of substitutions, omissions, reversals or transpositions in reading or writing letters and words. Disorientation is not limited to visual input; many dyslexics commonly mishear or garble words or the sequence of words in sentences. Their sense of time can seem distorted and their motor coordination can appear delayed or clumsy.
The repeated mistakes that result from misperceptions due to disorientation inevitably lead to emotional reactions, frustration and loss of self-esteem. In an effort to solve this dilemma, each dyslexic will begin to develop a set of coping mechanisms and compulsive behaviors to get around these problems. Ron Davis calls them "old solutions." Rote memorization, the alphabet song, getting Mom to do the homework, acting out, illegible handwriting to cover up poor spelling, skillful deception and avoidance of any task related to school or reading, are some examples. These can begin to develop as early as ages six or seven. An adult dyslexic will have an entire repertoire of such behaviors. Now we have the full range of symptoms, characteristics and behaviors commonly associated with dyslexia.
The most significant aspect of the Davis Theory in resolving dyslexia is the observation that when an auditory symbol – a word – lacks a mental picture and meaning for the dyslexic, disorientation and mistakes are the result. When we show a dyslexic how to turn off the disorientations at the moment they occur, and then help find and master the stimuli that triggered the disorientation, the reading, writing and spelling problems start to disappear. So do the "old solutions."
www.dyslexia.com/library/davistheory.htm
Ronald D. Davis talks about how disorientation/confusion can lead to distorted perceptual experiences that neurodivergents have. He believes that the multidimensional,visual,picture thinking of dyslexics makes them use their disorientation to automatically distort their peceptions but also can be used to see things from other perspectives. He believes those things are strongly connected to each other. They are highly imaginative. They could actually have an overactive imagination that leads to the perceptual distortions.
Ronald D. Davis, talks about focusing mind's eye....He talks about it from his experience as a neurodivergent...He talks about the shifting of the mind's eye and move it to optimum viewpoint for real-world perception can help with disorientation of neurodivergents.
Disorientation/confusion also are symptoms of cerebellar-vestibular dysfunction which Dr. Harold N. Levinson believes is root of neurodivergent conditions.
Dr. Harold N. Levinson and Ronald D. Davis seemed to degree on some things about neurodivergent conditions. They both believe that neurodivergent conditions have highly significant overlapping symptoms and comorbidity. That's why Dr Levinson refers to the whole neurodivergence as Dyslexic Syndrome, and Ronald D. Davis believes that root of neurodivergent conditions is Dyslexia which he views as a perceptual talent. That's why his first book was called GIFT OF DYSLEXIA.
They both believe that the neurodivergent conditions and disorientation/confusion are strongly connected. The only difference is that Dr. Levinson believes that it stems from cerebellar vestibular dysfunction,and should be treated with anti-motion sickness medication. Ronald D. Davis believes that it stems from being a highly visual,picture thinker, and that it can be resolved with mind's eye focus therapy.
I believe that cerebellar-vestibular dysfunction can be in synchronicity with neurodivergent conditions and not just cause and effect. It could be one of those " what came first....the chicken or the egg" I believe that it's possible that the neurodivergent person can be ultrasensitive to sensory input to the point that the cerebellar vestibular system is overwhelmed which results in disorientation/confusion. Therefore, cerebellar vestibular problems could actually be the symptoms of hypersensitivity. I am just coming at it from a neuro-divergent perspective.
Omega 3 fatty acids not only found to decrease the symptoms of neurodivergence, but also decrease hypersensitivity too. Neurodivergents tend to be hypersensitive any way. Certain vitamins and minerals help with cerebellar vestibular functioning too,and they also can decrease hypersensitivity...especially Vitamin B complex which is known as the stress vitamin. Motion sickness medications are used to treat cerebellar vestibular dysfunction. They could actually decrease hypersensitivity. Motion sickness could stem from hypersensitivity to movements.
I also agree with the theories of Thom Hartmann of ADHD in connection to hunters that are backed up by the findings of the DRD4 7R gene
From Thom Hartmann's book, The Edison Gene in regards to DRD4 7R Gene and ADHD:
page 4:
Enthusiastic
Creative
Disorganized
Non-linear in their thinking (they leap to new conclusions or observations)
Innovative
Easily distracted (or,to put it differently, easily attracted to new stimuli)
Capable of extraordinary hyperfous
Understanding of what it means to be an "outsider"
Determined
Eccentric
Easily Bored
Impulsive
Entrepreneurial
Energetic
from DANDA (Developmental Adult Neuro-Diversity Association)
Neuro-Diversity refers to the spectrum of neurological profiles describing how effective an individual is in processing information. This information comes in many forms, including written and spoken language, sounds, visual images, light, temperature, touch, texture and taste - as well as movement and co-ordination signals from the brain. The processing of all these things includes not only receiving and interpreting, but also transmitting, concentrating on and storing information. For most people, i.e., the Neuro-Typical (NT), the cognitive profile is relatively smooth, with little variation in effectiveness of information processing. This is in line with their general level of intellectual and reasoning ability.
In contrast, a minority of people, i.e. the Neuro-Diverse (NDs), have a cognitive profile, which shows many peaks and troughs, denoting significant disparity between the best and worst of their information processing (NB This is different from the case of having a uniform low level of performance throughout). The processing differences are present from birth, and are independent of any basic physical malfunctions, for example, of eyes, ears or limbs. It is thought that 10% of the population are significantly ND, with many more having some degree of neuro-divergence.
Put simply, ND people have had a condition from birth, which gives them difficulties in some basic skills areas, which cannot be explained by any physical disability or by their level of intellectual or reasoning ability. Specific Learning Difficulties and the, possibly more preferred term, Multi-Specific Processing Difficulties, are other ways of describing these problems.
NDs are more likely to be 'extreme machines' than NTs, that is, they are either brilliant or useless at things and rarely mediocre. They may, on occasion, appear to be average at some tasks. However, this may be due to brilliance at one aspect being cancelled out by being useless at another aspect of the same activity.
The rules of easy and difficult tend not to work for NDs, and in many cases are actually reversed. For some, complex mathematical analysis is 'a walk in the park', whereas an actual walk in the park (if they have to cross a busy road to get there and then cannot find the exit, when they remember that they should have been somewhere else half an hour ago, and the temperature is too hot for them to cope with) can be a nightmare.
www.danda.org.uk/pages/neu...ersity.php
here, DANDA emphasizes the comorbidity of neurodivergent conditions with each other:
DANDA has grown out of the Dyspraxia Foundation Adult Support Group, as it became clear that most people connected to the Group did not have dyspraxia alone. Most, in fact, had AD(H)D (Attention Deficit (Hyperactivity) Disorder, Asperger’s Syndrome or dyslexia as well. It was the norm rather than the exception.
www.danda.org.uk/pages/about-danda.php
The following is strengths of neuro-divergence from a neuro-diversity site:
There hasn't been much posted about the strengths of neurodivergence which can be used to compensate for their weaknesses.
Asperger’s Syndrome often allows a student to show:
* Intense concentration on studying
* Independence
* An affinity with computers and other technology
* Good formal essay writing
* Attention to detail and precision
* Original ideas
* Reliable meeting of deadlines.
Positive aspects of dyscalculia
focus on difficulties. Dyscalculic people often have strengths as well, such as:
* Creativity
* Strategic thinking
* Practical ability
* Love of words
* Intuitive thinking
* Problem-solving
Positive aspects of dyspraxia
Most books and web sites on dyspraxia focus on difficulties. Dyspraxic people often have strengths as well, such as:
* Creativity
* Determination
* Motivation
* Strategic thinking
* Problem-solving
Positive aspects of dyslexia
Most books and web sites on dyslexia focus on difficulties with reading, writing and memory tasks. Dyslexic people often have strengths as well, such as:
* Creativity
* 3 dimensional thinking
* Seeing the 'whole picture'
* Pictorial thinking
* Divergent thinking
* Problem solving
* Making unexpected connections
ADHD is part of what might be called ‘neurodiversity’. Its indicators can overlap with dyslexia in respect of lack of concentration and difficulties with personal organisation. On the other hand, there are said to be some potential advantages of this kind of brain:
* Ability to see the ‘big picture’
* Being creative and inventive
* Ability to focus intensely for a time
* High levels of energy
* Risk-taking can lead to discoveries
* Being intuitive
One of the more disturbing indicators of Tourette Syndrome are vocal and muscular tics (coprolalia/copropraxia) in the form of expletives, socially taboo words and obscene and inappropriate gestures. The person with TS cannot control these urges and can often become scorned upon by other people. Coprolalia/copropraxia are only present in less than 30% of Touretters (Packer,94), however because of media stereotypes these are the symptoms the general public often and only associate with Tourette Syndrome.
Whilst the indicators discussed may seem negative, there are also positive characteristics of TS as there are in many types of neurodiversity. These can include:
Excellent musical abilities.
Memory capable of almost “total recall”.
Excellent peripheral perception.
Laser-like concentration.
The following is from Doreen Virtue's book, The Care and Feeding Of the Indigo Child. I didn't include anything that had to do with metaphysical,psychic stuff because those aren't known traits of neuro-divergence recognized by science.
Here are things in the book that I read that pertains to neuro-divergent conditions
page 100, Indigos may seem awkward or clumsy and may be labeled a
having delayed motor skill functioning (those are symptoms of Dyspraxia)
page 101, Talking and reading may also seem unnatural to Indigo
Children, who intuitively know that more accurate and honest
conversation is available through telepathy (speech delays/problems are early
warning signs of Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,Autism)
page 11, Indigo Children are exquisitely sensitive in many ways. They
may have been subject to taunts such as "You're too sensitive," yet
their sensitivity is a spiritual gift equivalent to a detecting
instrument. (that can be sensory integration disorder, sensory integration issues which are common in Dyslexics,Dyspraxics,and ADHDers but highest in the autistic spectrum disorders)
page 172, Because right-brained people have such acute senses, they're
easily distracted. They can hear every little click of the school
clock's hand, and the high pitch of the fluorescent lighting.
(that can be Dyslexics,Dyspraxics,ADHDers,and people with autistic spectrum disorders)
page 97, one of the reasons why Indigo Children are so good at
manifesting is because they processing information primarily through
mental pictures. They are skilled visualizers and can easily develop a
photographic memory. They think and learn mainly in pictures
(Dyslexics,Autistics,and a lot of ADHDers think mainly in pictures instead of words)
page 113, Sensitive Indigo Children aren't just affected by the
physical properties of their bedrooms; they;re also influenced by the
invisible nontangibles in their rooms. Music, lighting,and scent and
can make a big difference in your children's sleeping patterns,
moods,and energy levels.
(again....this can be sensory integration disorder,sensory integration issues
that are common in Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD, but highest in the autistic spectrum
disorders)
page 6, Indigos are highly creative children,and think outside the box.
This thinking style has created many of the world's breakthrough
inventions
(this type of thinking is in Dyslexics,Dyspraxics,ADHDers,and autistic spectrum disorders)
page171, Indigo Children, gifted children, who are labeled ADD or ADHD
and adult lightworkers are almost always rightbrain dominant. This
means that they interact with the world primarily with the right
hemisphere of their brain, which focuses upon visions and feeling and
relates to nonverbal studies such as art, music, math, philosophy,
psychology,and psychic arts. Right brain - dominant people can make
excellent writers and speakers, provided they learn how to translate
their mental pictures and strong internal feelings into the world.
(this can apply to Dyslexics,Dypraxics,ADHDers,and people with autistic spectrum disorders)
Like I said before, I don't believe in the Indigo,Crystal children phenomena just like you don't. I believe that it's just a New Age term for neuro-divergence
one last thing:
I like the part that Dr. Levinson says about eye contact in regards to neuro-divergence. Pleas remember, he refers to neurodivergence as Dyslexia because of the overlapping symptoms,comorbidity Dyslexia has with other neurodivergent conditions. As you know, poor eye contact can be viewed as being disrespectful,dishonest, but also even part of the flat emotional effect in schizophrenics
page 41 from A SOLUTION TO THE RIDDLE - DYSLEXIA
Occasionally , dyslexics were considered to be negativistic on the basis of their hesitant, ambivalent, and anxiety-laden avoidance of handshaking and/or eye contact. Only in retrospect were these "anti-social" avoidance symptoms recognized to be due to primary somatic, rather than primary psychogenic, disturbances. Thus, upon neurodynamic exploration, hand contact was avoided because of right/left uncertaintly and the anticipated embarassment of using the wrong hand. In a similar fashion, upon analysis, eye contact was avoided in order to minimize (1) ocular perseveration, (2) directionally confused and dysmetric ocular scanning mechanisms, and (3) the catastrophic discomfort triggered when "forced" to fixate moving facial features during communication.
For some dyslexics, simultaneous listening and looking were more than they could "take" physiologically, and as a result they tended to sacrifice direction-dependent looking or eye contact in order to preserve the direction and sequence of auditory verbalizations and comprehension. In retrospect, it appeared as if dyslexics could not simulatenously coordinate and integrate directional and/or sequential visual,auditory,proprioceptive,and motor processing.
I can totally relate to this stuff. Because my father was a neuro-divergent, I suspected that he had the same issues. My mother told me that I am so much like my father. I read the stuff to my mother,and I told her that I can totally relate to it. I also told her that I bet that my father could to, and my mom agreed. Keep in mind that I never knew my father. I only knew what my mom told me. I told her that she probably couldn't relate to the stuff, but my mom surprisingly told me that she had the same issues too. She said that she always been a bit shy. She is also a neuro-divergent, but my father was more so. When I read the Dr. Levinson's list of neuro-divergent symptoms to her in 2003, she told me that she has a lot of the symptoms. I read them to my aunt,and she told me that she has a lot of the neuro-divergent symptoms. That's when I realized that this runs strong in my family. I was open to one of my cousins about it just recently,and she told me that a lot of the people in our family are like that. Metaphysically oriented runs in the family too, but things get kept to themselves. Therefore, I don't believe the Indigo,Crystal stuff applies to a certain generation.
Please feel free to ask me more questions. The main things that I want to do as a neurodiversity advocate (Eris in Aries R in 8th sextile Midheaven in Gemini and Mercury in Scorpio in 3rd biquintile Eris.) is to help people understand the neuro-divergent conditions. One of things is to help people understand that most Dyslexics have phonological,processing problems and not visual processing problems. my problems were auditory,phonological processing problems that even included auditory/speech reversals/scrambling. If it wasn't auditory therapy,speech therapy,and phonics, I wouldn't be able to use words. Too many people think Dyslexia means seeing words backwards. That's not even definition in the Dyslexic organizations, especially International Dyslexia Association. Another reason is to help understand the overlapping symptoms,traits that neuro-divergence has with mental ilnesses to prevent misdiagnoses. Dyspraxia can be
misdiagnosed as disorganized type schizophrenia. Dr. Levinson pointed out that many neuro-divergents' symptoms were mistaken for psychological problems. He also wrote the need to differentiate neuro-divergent speech from psychotic speech. It was reading that stuff that made me realized that psychiatrists misdiagnosed me because of my speech. Autism used to be thought as a form of schizophrenia in the past. ADHD and Bipolar have overlapping symptoms and traits too. My own Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD was misdiagnosed as schizoaffective bipolar. It was my speech irregularities that got me misdiagnosed. My mother told me that my father was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, but he was a neuro-divergent too. Mary Colley,a founder of DANDA told me that many neuro-divergents in the UK have been misdiagnosed bipolar,schizophrenia. There is not much understanding of neuro-divergent adults compared to neuro-divergent children because the mistake of thinking that neuro-divergence is something that is outgrown. Another is to understand that mental illness can be secondary to the primary. Many people with neuro-divergence have problems with depression,anxiety that stem from fear,insecurity,and low self esteem. I want people to understand the strengths,gifts that neuro-divergents tend to have. Most of all, help people understand that neuro-divergence has nothing to do with lack of intelligence. There is also needs to be better understanding of autism. Not autistics are the same. Some are high functioning like Dr. Temple Grandin and Ronald D. Davis. Non-verbal autistics are more intelligent than traditional intelligence tests show too. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:07 PMRaymond
I suffer from Gemini-Brain syndrome, namely, the inability to trawl through very lengthy posts! I just skimmed through that to get the general gist of what you're saying.
Couple of things that stood out but firstly I wanted to ask, do you think that dyslexia, adhd or autism can be shown in the chart? Cos that's ultimately what we're talking about, whether we use the terms neuro-divergent or not. Secondly, if you do think so, what probably aspects/patterns/placements are likely to be involved. Of those aspects/etc could you limit it to being related solely to those involving the planets as recognised by astrology not including the dwarf planets or centaurs etc?
Couple of things stood out on this subject:
"If I explain myself, I am afraid that I won't explain it well which can result in misunderstandings. "
I understand the difficultly. You've answered really well the part of 'what is neuro-divergency' but I'm also interested in what it means to you, not what does the term mean to you, but what does being somewhat neuro-divergent actually mean to you. How do you see yourself as a result of this?
"It is a syndrome of many and varied symptoms affecting over 40 million American children and adults. "
Would you agree that there appears to be huge rise in dyslexia? One thing that interests me is that were we to classify dyslexia as a mental health issue we would be forced to recognise that we are in an epidemic. Now dyslexia is NOT a mental health issue obviously, but it seems like there are exponentially more dyslexic people today then there were 20 years ago. What do you think would account for this in terms of astorlogical reasoning? I have a theory that many of the people today classified (but by no means all) as dyslexic are actually victims of a failed education system and have in fact, not dyslexia, but just poor literacy and governments have 'labelled' these kids dyslexic so as to boost their statistics of literacy. It really breaks my heart to think that this might be true, but I'm slowly coming to this conclusion.
Much of what is written here about dyslexia I think could be equally applied to non-dyslexics. For example I am a quite visual thinker also and although I have had difficulties in the past with literacy and with reversals of letters, I have overcome this in childhood to become a 'normal' reader/writer. Is this not just part of the process of learning literacy?
"Dyslexics tend to have difficulty with unreal and symbolic objects, such as letters and numerals."
Would this imply a certain inability with regards algebra also then? Just curious. It seems the parts that you're describing as being difficult are what I would normally attribute to mercury.
"The following is from Doreen Virtue's book, The Care and Feeding Of the Indigo Child....Like I said before, I don't believe in the Indigo,Crystal children phenomena just like you don't. I believe that it's just a New Age term for neuro-divergence "
This implies that there is a link between indigo children and neuro-divergency. Whilst I wouldn't say I don't believe in the indigo theory, I just don't see how it matters or why its important. Is indigo any better than red? I have seen my own aura and it is a violety-pink almost indigo colour and don't feel in any special and my argument there is against all those new age books that talk about the indigos/crystal etc coming to 'save the world' etc etc. which I think is rubbish. It would be interesting for a trained psychic/aura reader/kirlian photographer to sample the auras of dyslexics and non-ddyslexics though just to test the theory.
Anyway my basic point/suggestion was that these things, if seen in the chart, are probably more likely or just as likely to be seen without involving those trans-neptunians. Certainly in your chart I think the unaspected uranus plays a major role.
As for my own experience, my mum wanted to bring me to a montessori (can't spell it ironically) school as she felt I had learning 'issues' in regards an inability to focus my attention for any considerable period of time. Not to make Ireland sound like its living in the 1800s but at the time notions such as ADHD etc were unheard of and you were more likely to get the doctor suggesting a good clout rather than anything else. As it happens my very early schooling was considerably difficult as I learned to properly form letters getting them in the right order etc etc and to retrain my brain to think in another way. On top of this my attention levels were incredibly poor (and still are) and I had a speech impediment thought to be brought on by thinking too quicky before I could say it. In other words I'd think of a sentance and have already moved onto the next one before I had opened my mouth causing a confusion in what I was saying in the first place. I kind of agree with that diagnosis that a speech therapist suggested. I still have this speech impediment which is more likely caused now by holding firm the diaphragm likely as a result of being shouted at or told off for speaking too quickly as a child. I was forced to stop, wait, hold my breath, think of the sentance, say it etc etc and now my diaphragm just freezes whenever I need to say something urgently.
My point being that there are probably many many areas of the chart that are likely to be involved and I can think of many aspects from my chart alone that could account for all these things i experienced, not least of which would be my sun-mercury conjunction in gemini opposition uranus in sag.
"Non-verbal autistics are more intelligent than traditional intelligence tests show too. "
I am extremely skeptical about modern intelligence testing. What is intelligence but what we choose for it to be. After all if we decided that an ear for music showed intellect how would the scores of intelligence be affected? Would the otherwise intelligent person suddenly fall? How about artistic expression? is this not a form of intelligence.
We discussed this not so long ago and I basically don't believe in IQ tests, I prefer some kind of aptitude testing. Someone may have an aptitude in one thing but not in another. Intelligence is such a catch-all term and is too vague and wishy-washy for my liking! -
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Unsu...
Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:14 PMPaul,
<<I suffer from Gemini-Brain syndrome, namely, the inability to trawl through very lengthy posts!>>
U R too funny! Starting out a post with that INTRO and making it a lengthy one!!
Wut you have in Gemmy? Sun?
Mars, Venus and Jup in my Birth Chart.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:20 PMBy aptitude testing do you mean hands on exercise that involve testing all the senses rather than just answering mulitiple choice questions?
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 3:34 PM
because symptoms neuro-divergent conditions overlap with psychiatric disorders, it's very difficult to differentiate the chart of a neuro-divergent from the chart of a person has a psychiatric disorder. I always pointed this out. Even the astrological aspects that astrologers give for psychiatric disorders can be the same aspects for neurodivergent conditions. They tend to look at it from a neuro-typical perspective. That is that they see it as a disorder,and so they focus mainly on hard aspects. I already talked about that.
like I said before, neuro-divergence is very complexed and hard to pin down.
that's one of the reasons I believe that the transneptunians can be factors,and that includes Pluto. After all, Pluto is a transneptunian too. Pluto is given so much credit for stuff. Those other transneptunians can be just as important as Pluto, especially the big ones that are dwarf planets along with Pluto. I already explained my views about why I believe the transneptunians can factor in neurodivergence. I believe in making changes,adapting to astronomical discoveries as well as using astronomical,physical features of objects as clues to the object's meanings.
I will agree to disagree on the transneptunian stuff.
I believe that some people are misdiagnosed,overdiagnosed,and undiagnosed. I believe that mainstream education/schools are very screwed up and people that are auditory sequential learners are S.O.L. I believe that there are also increased
awareness of neuro-divergence which leads to identification. There is more understanding of neuro-divergence not meaning being stupid,retarded,lazy,and not trying which was what how many of us were thought of as in the past. Actually a lot of neurodivergents overlooked too. Many don't find out until they are adults. It's often after their children are diagnosed with the same issues. These things do tend to run in families like they do in my family.
I also pointed out that many neuro-divergents have been mistakened for having psychiatric disorders. That is one of the main things that I point as an advocate. I am very passionate when it comes to misdiagnoses and being giving medication that can be harmful. I don't believe that ADHD is a disorder that needs medicated. I just think that it's an alternative way of being,thinking,and learning
also Dyslexics can be literate after they get appropriate training,education. They can be special education programs like I had. There does tend to be a myth that Dyslexic is uncapable of being literate and if you are literate, then you're not Dyslexic. There is also myth that special education is only for the retarded. That's the type of ignorance that makes Dyslexia,neuro-divergence,and special education hard to understand by others. Dr. Levinson pointed that out. Dyslexia organizations stress that too.. Dyslexia means difficulty with words. Dys = difficulty with Lexia means words. Dyslexics don't learn to read naturally from language exposure like most people do. Most Dyslexics have an auditory,phonological processing problem. They have problems understanding the sounds of words and what they mean. There is also problems with short term memory as well as problems with sequences and linear reasoning.
for example. I had auditory therapy,speech therapy which helped me to develop phonemic awareness which enabled me to learn from phonics training which I needed so I can learn to sound out words. If there is lack of phonemic awareness, phonics doesn't make sense to a Dyslexic. I actually had to be taught to think in words because I had trouble doing that. I was taught English in a way like it was my 2nd language. They gave me cards of individual letters to sound out,then of word parts. My thinking was pretty much all pictures,visual. Even now, I think in pictures,visualize nonstop. Now, I think in words too due to my special education training and continuous exposure to words verbal and written, but picture,visual thinking dominates.
a minority of Dyslexics have visual processing problems, and that can be connected to scotopic sensitivity or Irlen Syndrome. There is disagreement about scotopic sensitivity or Irlen Syndrome. there is also issues with eye coordination. Dr. Levinson pointed out that Dyslexics tend to have clumsy eyes. I have problems with eye tracking/coordination too, and I tend to lose my place a lot when I read. I tend to track things with my finger or have like have a mental finger way of keeping track of what I read. I tend to see things all once,and I get overloaded with word information that includes both auditory and visual. there is also sequential memory issue that effects my reading/listening. Words,sentences,paragraphs are based on sequence. Words are letters in sequential order. Sentences are words in sequential order. Paragraphs are sentences in sequential order. I constantly read stuff over and over as well as read slowly so I can grasp it. It doesn't matter how long and short somebody writes. I don't problems reading other's long posts either. Maybe it's the combination of sorta compulsive,persevering way of reading which I have to do any way to understand something.
things get more complicated if they have other neuro-divergent conditions like ADHD and Dyspraxia (coordination,clumsiness issues) -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 3:45 PM
On my blog,
I posted about addressing the misconceptions of Dyslexia:
A lot of people have misconceptions about what Dyslexia is like seeing
things backwards. A lot of people don't know that in most
cases,Dyslexia involves phonological,auditory processing problems which I have..
A lot of people aren't aware that speech problems are symptoms of
Dyslexia and that many have a history of speech therapy in special
education like I do. A lot of people think that all students in special
education have mental retardation. They don't know that a lot of
children in special education classes aren't retarded even though they
refer to special education class as "the retard class" and refer to
all special education students as "retards". They don't seem to
understand that a lot of Dyslexics benefit from early intervention
special education,and so they can learn to read,write,and spell well.
A lot of people think that speech problems indicate low
intelligence. For instance, I read a lot about how President Bush has
problems with speech,and so they say that indicates how stupid he is.
They don't stop to consider that there are many intelligent people
that do have history of speech problems.
The following is from International Dyslexia Association. I am a
sustaining member of this organization,and that's part of my advocacy.
It is the oldest and largest Dyslexic organization.
What is dyslexia?
Dyslexia is a language-based learning disability. Dyslexia refers to a
cluster of symptoms, which result in people having difficulties with
specific language skills, particularly reading. Students with dyslexia
usually experience difficulties with other language skills such as
spelling, writing, and pronouncing words. Dyslexia affects individuals
throughout their lives; however, its impact can change at different
stages in a person's life. It is referred to as a learning disability
because dyslexia can make it very difficult for a student to succeed
academically in the typical instructional environment, and in its more
severe forms, will qualify a student for special education, special
accommodations, or extra support services.
(as you see, the severe Dyslexics qualify for special education...so
you see,there are severe Dyslexics in special education classes. I was
one of them. Not everybody in special education classes are retarded.
..Therefore, special education classes should not be referred to as
"the retard class" nor should special eduation students be referred to
as "retards")
What are the effects of dyslexia?
The impact that dyslexia has is different for each person and depends
on the severity of the condition and the effectiveness of instruction
or remediation. The core difficulty is with word recognition and
reading fluency, spelling, and writing. Some dyslexics manage to learn
early reading and spelling tasks, especially with excellent
instruction, but later experience their most debilitating problems
when more complex language skills are required, such as grammar,
understanding textbook material, and writing essays.
People with dyslexia can also have problems with spoken language, even
after they have been exposed to good language models in their homes
and good language instruction in school. They may find it difficult to
express themselves clearly, or to fully comprehend what others mean
when they speak. Such language problems are often difficult to
recognize, but they can lead to major problems in school, in the
workplace, and in relating to other people. The effects of dyslexia
reach well beyond the classroom.
www.interdys.org/FAQ.htm
What are the signs of dyslexia?
The problems displayed by individuals with dyslexia involve
difficulties in acquiring and using written
language. It is a myth that dyslexic individuals "read backwards,"
although spelling can look quite
jumbled at times because students have trouble remembering letter
symbols for sounds and forming
memories for words. Other problems experienced by dyslexics include
the following:
Learning to speak
Learning letters and their sounds
Organizing written and spoken language
Memorizing number facts
Reading quickly enough to comprehend
Persisting with and comprehending longer reading assignments
Spelling
Learning a foreign language
Correctly doing math operations
(A lot of people think Dyslexia is seeing words backwards,but it's
actually a myth....you can see that Dyslexics can have problems with
speech, and so speech problems aren't necessarily mental retardation)
(As you can see,there are many Dyslexics that have problems with spoken
language and auditory processing like I have. Speech and auditory
processing problems don't mean mental retardation.
Everybody needs to stop thinking that people with those problems are
mentally retarded when they could actually be Dyslexic)
DYSLEXIA AND RELATED DISORDERS
The word dyslexia comes from the Greek language and means poor
language. Individuals with dyslexia have trouble with reading,
writing, spelling and/or math although they have the ability and have
had opportunities to learn. Individuals with dyslexia can learn; they
just learn in a different way. Often these individuals, who have
talented and productive minds, are said to have a language learning
difference.
Does My Child Have Dyslexia?
Individuals with dyslexia usually have some of the following
characteristics.
Difficulty with oral language
Late in learning to talk
Difficulty pronouncing words
Difficulty acquiring vocabulary or using age appropriate grammar
Difficulty following directions
Confusion with before/after, right/left, and so on
Difficulty learning the alphabet, nursery rhymes, or songs
Difficulty understanding concepts and relationships
Difficulty with word retrieval or naming problems
Difficulty with reading
Difficulty learning to read
Difficulty identifying or generating rhyming words, or counting
syllables in words (Phonological Awareness)
Difficulty with hearing and manipulating sounds in words (Phonemic
Awareness)
Difficulty distinguishing different sounds in words (Auditory
Discrimination)
Difficulty in learning the sounds of letters
Difficulty remembering names and/or shapes of letters
Reverses letters or the order of letters when reading
Misreads or omits common small words
"Stumbles" through longer words
Poor reading comprehension during oral or silent reading
Slow, laborious oral reading
Difficulty with written language
Difficulty putting ideas on paper
Many spelling mistakes
May do well on weekly spelling tests, but there are many spelling
mistakes in daily work
Difficulty in proofreading
www.interdys.org/ewebeditp...ers(1).pdf
(As you can see speech,auditory processing,phonological processing
issues are included in the symptoms of Dyslexia. Therefore, a lot of
Dyslexics don't have visual processing issues. Speech problems aren't
necessarily mental retardation even though a lot of people think
speech problems mean little intelligence. Reading is not just a
visual task. It is also a phonological,auditory task. You have to
know how words sound and how to sound them out and not just know what the
words look like)
: Can Individuals Who Are Dyslexic Learn To Read?
A: Yes.
If children who are dyslexic get effective phonological training in
Kindergarten and 1st grade, they will have significantly fewer
problems in learning to read at grade level than do children who are
not identified or helped until 3rd grade.
74% of the children who are poor readers in 3rd grade remain poor
readers in the 9th grade. Often they can't read well as adults either.
It is never too late for individuals with dyslexia to learn to read,
process and express information more efficiently. Research shows that
programs utilizing multisensory structured language techniques can
help children and adults learn to read.
www.interdys.org/FAQLearnToRead.htm
How is dyslexia treated?
Dyslexia is a life-long condition. With proper help, many people with
dyslexia can learn to read and write
well. Early identification and treatment is the key to helping
dyslexics achieve in school and in life. Most
people with dyslexia need help from a teacher, tutor, or therapist
specially trained in using a multisensory,
structured language approach. It is important for these individuals to
be taught by a systematic and
explicit method that involves several senses (hearing, seeing,
touching) at the same time. Many
individuals with dyslexia need one-on-one help so that they can move
forward at their own pace. In
addition, students with dyslexia often need a great deal of structured
practice and immediate, corrective
feedback to develop automatic word recognition skills. For students
with dyslexia, it is helpful if their
outside academic therapists work closely with classroom teachers.
www.interdys.org/ewebeditp..._81407.pdf
(As you see, early intervention therapy can help many Dyslexics learn
to read and write well. Early identification and treatment helps a
Dyslexic achieve in school and in life. I can't stress enough the
importance of early intervention. I can't stress enough that many
Dyslexics do learn to read and write well. A lot of them do that
through special education. The problem is that too many people think
special education is for the mentally retarded, and so they can't
comprehend the idea of early intervention helps many Dyslexics as
result of getting special education therapies)
How widespread is dyslexia?
About 13-14% of the school population nationwide has a handicapping
condition that qualifies them for
special education. Current studies indicate that one-half of all the
students who qualify for special
education are classified as having a learning disability (LD) (6-7%).
About 85% of those LD students
have a primary learning disability in reading and language processing.
www.interdys.org/ewebeditp..._81407.pdf
Q: How Common Are Language-Based Learning Disabilities?
A: 15-20% of the population have a language-based learning disability.
Of the students with specific learning disabilities receiving special
education services, 70-80% have deficits in reading.
www.interdys.org/FAQHowCommon.htm
(As you see,half of the children in special education aren't even
retarded. They have a learning disability. Most of those learning
disabled have primary learning disability in reading and language
processing. Therefore, special education is not only for mentally
retarded children but children with learning disabilities. Special
Education class should not be referred to as "the retard class" and
special education students should not be referred to as "retards" )
I hope that after reading this, you will understand what Dyslexics are
like. You will know that many Dyslexics have
auditory,phonological,speech processing problems like myself. You will
know that not every person in special education is retarded and that
half of the special ed students aren't retarded but learning disabled like myself.
You will know that majority of those learning disabled are
Dyslexic like myself. You will know that it is the severe Dyslexics who
qualify for special education. You will stop thinking that
Dyslexics see words backwards and stop thinking of people that have
history of special education and speech therapy as retarded.
I feel that I have to use my experiences of what it was like growing
up Dyslexic,and help people raise awareness of Dyslexia and what it
actually entails and help get rid of myths of Dyslexia that actually
end up hurting Dyslexics. It leads to confusion,misunderstandings,negative labels,misdiagnoses which often leads to insecurity and low self esteem which can progress into anxiety and depression.
I have this dream that all people will understand Dyslexia. I have a
dream that all Dyslexics will understand themselves and never believe
that they are stupid and that they will believe in themselves which
can lead to great success. I have a dream that special education will
no longer be referred to as the "retard class." I have a dream that
special education students will no longer be referred to as "retards"
I have a dream that all Dyslexics will get identified,get the
treatment that they need,and learn to read and write well. I have a
dream that all Dyslexics will not be discriminated against but treated
as equals. I have a dream that all Dyslexics will not be misdiagnosed. I
have a dream that all Dyslexics will use their strengths,talents,gifts
to make their lives and others' lives better. This dream is not just
for Dyslexics but all neurodivergents.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 4:40 PM
Oh yeah
I wrote a post about neurodivergence from the neurodivergent perspective
Looking At Neurodivergence from The Neurodivergent Perspective.
Very interesting stuff.
A fellow astrologer once criticized Tom Cruise because of his being a member of a cult that is highly controversial in society. He didn't consider that maybe he was throwing a stone while in a glass house nor calling a kettle "black."
I am not going to make any judgments about Tom Cruise with whom I share neurodivergence and the belief that neurodivergents shouldn't be on medication for not fitting inside the box in common. I mean..who am I to judge? I believe in unconventional stuff too,and that would get me badly judged by mental health professionals and conservative religious people. I am talking about my beliefs in Astrology,Numerology,Tarot,and other metaphysical/occult subjects. I feel that I have to avoid being self righteous and point fingers. A person's religion is a cult to another..especially if they don't believe in the religion. Even Christianity was viewed as a cult in it's early stages. A lot of Christians believe that paganism is a cult. It really depends on one's point of view. It's relative. I don't believe in absolutes. Just like what we see in the sky is relative, and there are many ways to look at the sky. As astrologers,we mainly use ecliptic longitude coordinates, and some astrologers also use declinations(equatorial latitude coordinates). However,astronomers don't use the ecliptic longitude coordinates. They use Right Ascension(equatorial longitude coordinates) along with declinations to locate celestial objects. Does that mean that astrologers are using the wrong coordinates? Of course not. Does that mean that astronomers are using the wrong coordinates? Of course not. They are both looking at the same sky, but they are looking at it from different perspectives. Horizon coordinates have been used too, and they are used in visual based star paran system. There are many coordinates that we can use to locate celestial objects, and so many perspectives of how we look at the sky. We have many astrological systems in the field of Astrology. None of them are necessarily wrong. They are just seeing the chart from different perspectives. That's how religions and philosophies are too. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my New Age,NeoPagan,Unitarian Universalist beliefs to be accused of being cultish nor wrong in some way. That's why I give people the consideration including even people like Tom Cruise who believes in Scientology which I don't believe in. I feel that we humans need to avoid self righteousness and hypocrisy when it comes to views that are divergent from others. I believe that Eris has to do with Diversity. Mythological Eris caused men to quarrel and fight by making them believe that their opinions are right and other's are wrong. It seems like it might have to do with ideology. It also seems to fit with diversity and divergence which often are connected to equal/civil rights. I believe that the solution is the most simple concept of all - "Treat others like you want to be treated" Even Jesus preached "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" But.......good grief!....it's like the
hardest concept to practice on our planet even though it's the easiest concept of all.
so with that in mind....
I believe that Neptune is strong in a neurodivergent. They are confusing and can easily be confused in some ways. They are hard to pin down,often misunderstood/misdiagnosed, and put on medication like antipsychotic,Risperdal have been used to treat behavior problems in people(especially children) with ADHD and Autistic Spectrum Disorders. Many of them are ultrasensitive(as in ultraresponsive to external stimuli which can be sensory integration issues) and highly imaginative types(which can fit with the visual thinking,nonlinear thought processes that many neurotypicals,and highly distractibility from an internal source). Many neurotypicals might even see them as deceptive in some way if they don't understand their neurodivergent weaknesses...i.e. many neurodivergents have problems with eye contact. It can be because of sensory integration issues or coordination issues that have problems as they have a hard time doing more than one thing at the same time. Having eye contact or not having eye contact with another during communications is often viewed as determining if somebody's being honest or not. Some have to pause before answering a question. This could be because of auditory input speech lags or being primarily a picture thinker with word thinking being secondary. Some might see that as being dishonest because they might think "well...he's obviously lying,he can't even give a straight answer"
Even disorganization and absentmindedness that many neurodivergents have can be mistaken for deception too.
All the planets beyond Saturn are referred to as outerplanets, and so they are related to metaphysical energies. Uranus is the planet of liberation from boundaries as it breaks way with its need for independence,and it is associated with innovation and intuitive flashes. Neptune is the planet of dissolution of boundaries as it pierces the veil to reveal another world,and it is associated with imagination,inspiration, and psychism. Pluto is the planet of elimination of boundaries, and is compared to being the other side. This could be death,afterlife,or could be the subterranean depths of the human psyche. It is possible that Pluto's fellow transneptunian objects could be similar to Pluto. I believe that Pluto and its fellow transneptunians can be energies so metaphysical that they can be hard to handle and can manifest as problems on the physical plane such as serious health problems,psychiatric disorders, and even neurodivergence which are often subtle in their own way and very misunderstood. These aren't necessarily bad things. Neurodivergence tends to be very misunderstood,and it was unknown for a long time. The issues tend to be subtle. They have also been known as hidden handicaps.
With that in mind, I believe that it makes sense that the kuiper belt objects associated with unknown,hidden,subtleties could be indicators for neurodivergence.
I believe that Chiron does fit with special needs which often require special attention. Many children with special needs often grow up to be compassionate adults that care about children and others with special needs. Chiron can be about having painful experiences that lead you to be a compassionate person that care about others that have similar painful experiences.
Chiron is located between Saturn and Uranus.......so bridges the physical and metaphysical. It's considered holistic.....mind,body,spirit connection.
Saturn/Uranus midpoint is said to be Chiron-sensitive. That means that aspects to Saturn/Uranus midpoint is like aspects to Chiron.
think of the myth, Chiron
He was rejected by his parents, Cronos and Philyra because of his appearance as a centaur, but he ended up being a foster parent/mentor of many of the great heroes like Heracles,Jason,Achilles. He taught Asclepius to be a healer,and he was surpassed by that son of Apollo,the god of healing. Asclepius was the God of medicine.
Chiron was accidentally shot by Heracles with one of the poisoned arrows dipped in the Hydra's blood. He couldn't cure himself of the wound. He ended up taking Prometheus' place in the Underworld which led to the end of his pain.
Chariklo was his mate too. Chariklo is also the largest of the centaurs in our solar system. Like Chiron, it orbits between Saturn and Uranus. The difference is that it has an orbit less eccentric than Chiron. Centaurs named after females have less eccentric orbits than Centaurs named after males. The eccentricity of the orbits of the centaur celestial objects is like wild nature,noncomformity of the centaur creatures. That's why Chiron is viewed as a maverick.
BTW...there are over 40 centaurs, and over 10 of them have names already.
It would make sense to think that if Chiron is involved in neurodivergent conditions, then maybe other centaurs are involved in neurodivergent conditions too.
Also kuiper belt object Ixion is named after the grandfather of the centaurs. Ixion was known for his lusty nature like his descendants. He actually got punished by Zeus for wanting and trying to get it on with Zeus' wife,Hera. a horny mortal man trying to get it on with the queen of the gods. hahahahaha. That's how lusty Ixion was.
Ixion is a big plutino(3rd largest plutino), and it has 2:3 resonance with Neptune like Pluto. Its orbit is highly eccentric like Pluto's. Their orbits are similar to the orbits of centaurs with their eccentricity. They can be seen as wild,nonconformists.
I am going to look at it from the neurodivergent perspective too. That means that I don't view neurodivergence as a disorder. I view it as an alternative way of being and thinking which doesn't conform to the arbitrary rules of society. Therefore,I am not going to just focus on planetary afflictions which would be focus on just what's wrong with the person. I will focus on the easy aspects too as well as the esoteric aspect harmonics (5th,7th,9th,11th).
I am looking for harmonic aspect triangles,quadrilaterals or patterns with more than 5 objects. It's possible that a narrow orb esoteric aspect involving a personal planet/point could be important,and that could be something to consider. I believe that this is especially the case for close orb 5th harmonic aspects that include the quintile and biquintile which were devised by Johannes Johannes Kepler based on musical harmonic theory. It is said that he was skeptical of signs and houses in Astrology. It makes sense that he would think " the hell with the zodiac signs, I am coming up with my own aspects that have nothing to do with them". He opened the can of worms when he introduced minor aspects in Astrology. Even now,sesquiquadrates(devised by Kepler based on fiveness...5/8) and semisquaresare regularly used in Cosmobiology,seen on a 90 degree dial and Uranian Astrology as major aspects and regularly used with midpoints. Minor aspects are not necessarily minor, but they just require much smaller orbs than regular aspects. Minor aspect patterns have corresponding midpoint pictures. Even the golden section aspect(devised by Theodor Landscheidt) triangles have corresponding midpoint pictures. All midpoint pictures are harmonic aspect patterns any way. It's just that the ones that aren't of the 12th harmonic series(conjunction,opposition,square,sextile,semisextile,quincunx) are not easily seen in the regular chart.
5th harmonic in regards to neurodivergence:
It is said to be a quality similar to Pluto,with overtones of Venus and Mars: some kind of concrete creation or destruction is effected. Intellectual functions (not excluding emotion) and all especially human matters. Transformational change. The ability to express creative inspiration (due to other factors) in concrete creations. Many neurodivergents have obsessive traits. Many are highly emotional,intense and have history of emotional outbursts,emotional meltdowns which might be viewed as temper tantrums and can be destructive. Many of them can be a bit obsessive and hyperfocus,especially when it comes to interests. This could make them very good researchers. Because they think are lateral outside the box thinkers,they can be very creative. Many of them are in creative,artistic fields. The 10th harmonic might be important if it involves near exact to exact aspects (0 to 5 minutes of arc) and/or aspect patterns.
7th harmonic in regards to neurodivergence:
I check the 7th harmonic first because the 7th harmonic is said to have Uranus-Neptune flavor,energy linkings not entirely of this world as well as creative inspiration,but also mental and emotional difficulties and tenuous connectedness with the physical universe;religion.
There could be an otherworldliness about neurodivergents. Mental and emotional difficulties seems like it would fit with neurodivergence too. Also the 7th harmonic could be about the sublteties of existence, and neurodivergents tend to be extremely sensitive to subtleties that they can be easily overwhelmed,overstimulated by their environment. The 14th harmonic might be important if it involves near exact to exact aspects (0 to 5 minutes of arc) and/or aspect patterns.
9th harmonic in regards to neurodivergence:
The 9th harmonic is said to be about completions,endings;what life produces in the long run;needs and capacities in relationships and marriage. It seems that the 9th harmonic harmonic has to do with the big picture and wholeness(the integration of halves,parts into a cohesion....like the mind,body,and spirit.....or yin and yang....or. Many neurodivergents are global learners, and they tend to be good at seeing the big picture. Of course, many people only see parts of them whether it's just their weaknesses or just their strengths and not both their strengths and weaknesses. The 18th harmonic might be important if it involves near exact to exact aspects(0 to 5 minutes of arc) and/or aspect patterns.
11th harmonic in regards to neurodivergence.
David Cochrane(creator of Kepler Astrology Program) says that any aspect that has 11 in the denominator is very unstable, erratic, impatient, and rebellious which fit with neurodivergence quite a bit because they are not naturally conforming to arbitrary rules of society in regards to their physical being and thinking. Some other astrologers say that the 11th harmonic is associated with social consciousness and the ability to reach beyond oneself for help which I also believe is common with many neurodivergents who are strongly aware and tolerant of differences because of their own differences which lead them to raise awareness about differences in people. From the looks of it,it seems that these aspects have an Aquarius/Uranian flavor.
even the harmonic-oriented astrologer, Adze wrote:
An Undecile occurs when two planets are plus or minus thirty-two degrees, forty-three minutes and seven seconds apart (approximately thirty-three degrees). An undecile is one-eleventh of a circle. Undeciles indicate psychic gifts. Where undeciles are found, modifications are required. Undeciles relate to the power of computers, science and technology. Undeciles resonate with Uranus, Fixed, Air and Aquarius energy. Mawww.adze.com/Classroom/aspects.html
Many neurodivergents are attracted to computers,science,and techology and make a living in those fields. Some believe that high functioning autistics,Aspergers are great in those areas. Some think that a lot of computer geeks might even have an autistic spectrum disorder.
In Medical Astrology, Mercury is said to be associated with the nervous system and Moon is said to be associated with the brain itself according to Cosmobiologists,Uranian Astrologers. I also want to point out there are other views of what planet/point is associated with the brain. I believe that the Moon makes a lot of sense because Moon is associated with bodily fluids. We do have fluids in our brain called cerebrospinal fluid. Drinking water is very important for brain functioning. Dehydration can lead to problems with dizziness.
Other things that I will consider is the travel rate of both Moon and Mercury. Both are involved in processing information. The average travel rate of the Moon is 13 degrees,10 minutes. If the Moon's travel rate is slow,it could indicate slowness in processing information which has nothing to do with intelligence level. If the Moon's travel rate is fast, it could indicate quick emotional reactions to things. The person with a fast moon might even be seen as being too emotionally reactive which is typical of neurodivergents with sensory integration issues
The average travel rate of Mercury is 59 minutes,14 seconds. If the Mercury's travel rate is slow, it could indicate slowness in processing information which has nothing to do with intelligence level. If the Mercury's travel rate is fast,it could indicate quick mental reactions to things. It can even be a hyperactive nervous system which is typical of neurodivergents with hyperactivity.
Those are some things that I would check out when looking at charts of neurodivergents. I don't want to focus on just their weaknesses. Their strengths should also be looked at imho. My view is that they are not disordered but different.
Different doesn't necessarily mean deficient. We all have our differences in one way or another? Does that mean that we are deficient? People who think "my way is the right way" might believe in that. Many people that believe in diversity don't. Norms are based on what the majority of society believes is right and acceptable. Norms are relative. What's normal in one society is abnormal in another society. As astrologers, practicing Astrology is normal to us, but it's abnormal to many others that don't believe in Astrology. As astrologers, we are convergent in regards to our views and practices. To the outside observer, we are divergent.
That's how I view neurodivergence and the concept of neurodiversity. -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 12:47 AMWell....(raising my hand again)
the reason why I posted Gary Numan's chart was in part over the deabate about whether or not autism of ADD can be seen in the natal chart. Here is somone with a chart full of water, water and water, the Moon rising in his chart to boot....yet his music is cold, ambient, impersonaland surely, well and truly Uranian. Do androids dream electric sheep indeed - he loved that quote.
Yet...Uranus does not seem to form any close major aspects in his chart.
Numan has diagnosed himself as being asperger's.
Personally, I doubt the degree to which autism can be seen in a natal chart, if nothing else becasue there are now people who say that what may cause it may take place inside the womb several months before the child is born. Therwefore, autism may well come before the chart does, and autism simply 'uses' what is already there in the chart.
So, any takers? Couls anyone see what makes Numan self-professedly neuro-divergent? -
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 1:56 AM"Yet...Uranus does not seem to form any close major aspects in his chart. "
Nexus
Uranus is is very much tied into his chart. It is part of a major aspect configuration - the T Square.
Uranus is opposition Venus (values/pleasures/likes) and is square his moon/Neptune conjunction which is further conjunct his ascendant.
So we have Uranus square his Moon, his Ascendant and opposition his venus (which happens to be a singleton in his chart).
I wouldn't point to any one thing as being definitive of what we might call neuro-divergent. In fact, I don't really like the term neuro-divergent as it implies or connotates some kind of brain pattern that is 'split' or incorrect. My personal opinion is that dyslexia/adhd etc have just a different brain pattern to what we have chosen to (abitrarily) consider the norm. Uranus is all about breaking norms and both Raymond's case and in Gary Numan's case (who I know nothing about btw!) we can see Uranus as being a key player.
My point to raymond was that I don't see the point in looking for complicated answers if there's a straightforward one that fits the bill too. I appreciate not everyone would agree with that logic, and even if they did would disagree with my interpretation, but it seems to work for me.
Even if you remove all his signs and even take away the elemental balance (which take some of the focus off of venus) we still have a majjor aspect configuration involing Uranus and two personal planets both of which relate to the emotional body which is surely the muse for any writing or music - the moon and venus. Case closed? I don't know. But it certainly satisfies my reasoning for me.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 9:12 AM"I wouldn't point to any one thing as being definitive of what we might call neuro-divergent. In fact, I don't really like the term neuro-divergent as it implies or connotates some kind of brain pattern that is 'split' or incorrect"
Divergent doesn't imply anything bad,incorrect,or split. I strongly disagree with that.
I wrote about the meaning of neuro-divergent in my blog
Neurodivergence is not really another label like Indigo and ADHD
Neurodivergence is not a diagnosis nor any other type of medical term. It's not some new age label either. It's not some label that means deficient nor is it a label that means something great. It's not some label that puts people down nor makes people feel good. It's not a label that's positive nor negative. It's just neutral like the word human, or homo sapiens which is technically the name of our species.
label is a short word or phrase descriptive of a person, group, intellectual movement, etc.
name is a word or a combination of words by which a person, place, or thing, a body or class, or any object of thought is designated, called, or known.
The actual concept of name and label are pretty much the same.....just semantics. Our own names(first,middle,last name, nicknames,user names) are labels which identify who we are.
the term,label can be used for any noun which is a word in regards to a person,place,or thing. words themselves can be labels. even the word itself is an actual label for the thing itself. All words were made up,and they were created to describe certain things whether a noun,verb,adjective,adverb. It's better than using unintelligible noises like grunts to describe something. That's why we humans created words which we use in speech,writing,and typing. It was developing verbal communication. Of course there is also nonverbal communication in the form of facial expressions,gestures,body language,and even tone of voice.
the term, "neurodivergent" is a liberal and practical word to use. Some would say that it's a politically correct word to use. It's better than using words like "stupid","idiot","crazy","retarded",and other negative labels that we're usually given by people that aren't like us. I know from personal experience since my special education years. It's not a word that means defective. It's not a word that has any metaphysical connotations either. There is no need for it. Many people that don't fit the relative neurological norms are metaphysically oriented,and some aren't. There have been people like us existing in ancient times. We're not something recent. I am 37 yrs old(born October 29, 1971) and come from a family of neurodivergents on both my mother and father sides of my family. I think that there is some misunderstanding about the use of the word. When we neurodivergents use the word,"neurodivergent", we use that as word to say "hey..there is nothing wrong with us...we're not some mental defects...different doesn't mean deficient" However,both conventional and alternative health practitioners tend to have that view.
as for Neurodivergence -
neuro as in neurological
divergence as in - to diverge (third-person singular simple present diverges, present participle diverging, simple past and past participle diverged).....the opposite of convergence
1. (intransitive) to run apart; to tend into different directions
divergence as in
in the book, UPSIDE DOWN BRILLIANCE The Visual-Spatial Learner by Linda Kreger Silverman, Ph.D.
on page 377
the author wrote the following about visual spatial learners:
are divergent thinkers, preferring solutions that are more creative.
- may be actually unaware of the more usual methods of problem-solving or classification--or they may be unaware to use these because they have things framed in a different way.
neurodivergent just means different way of thinking,thinking outside the box, a different frame of mind. atypical neurological processing.
It's a term that was first used by Autistic,Aspergers people to describe themselves as people that are just different type of thinkers,and so they don't see themselves a deficient that they they need to be fixed in some way. Then it later on got extended to Dyslexics,Dyspraxics,ADHD,Tourette Syndrome.
It has to do with the neurodiversity movement which I strongly support. It has to do with the belief of civil/equal rights for people who don't fit inside the box that include things like equal treatment and protesting against things that try to put us in a mental straightjacket like medications. We don't believe that we are types that should be medicated because we don't fit inside a box. I don't agree with the psychiatric medicating of Autistic Spectrum people nor ADHD people. Antipsychotics like Risperdal are used on these people now,and I am strongly against that. If I was a child in the 1990's or 2000's and had parents and/or teachers that wanted me medicated instead of a child in 1970's/1980's, I'd be on Ritalin or some other psychiatric meds too. I was lucky to have special education with great special education teachers instead as well as a 4th grade regular school teacher who straightened me up and helped me realize my potential as a regular student that I finished the year with award for most improved student with a B plus average report card. I started off with typical ADHD behaviors in 4th grade. In October 1999, I was misdiagnosed as having schizoaffective bipolar disorder because my speech was abnormal,and they wanted me to take an antipsychotic. My thought processes weren't psychotic. These people were clueless. They didn't know about my history of special education,speech therapy. Later on the neurologists including the world renowned neurologist/psychiatrist, Dr. Harold N. Levinson told me that I wasn't psychotic and confirmed my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia. Therefore, I felt vindicated. I became my own advocate and succeeded in getting my neurodivergence recognized,documented for the first time since my special education years. I fought against the psychiatric diagnoses. I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't learned about neurodivergent conditions in 2003 and realized that I wasn't stupid,crazy, and that my misdiagnosis of schizoaffective bipolar was a misdiagnosis.
I realized that I inherited my neurodivergence from both my parents who had their problems with psychiatry because of their neurodivergence. I realized that my father always had problems with his neurodivergence, especially as a black man born on Jan 2, 1941. He didn't get help for his,and he got diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. My mom(born June 13, 1954) told me that he had the same speech,auditory processing,and coordination problems that I have. He was a highly emotional,ultrasensitive person like me too. After I showed stuff about Dyslexic Syndrome(which was a term that Dr. Levinson used for Neurodivergence because of Dyslexia and the other neurodivergent conditions have strong overlap in symptoms) to my mother, she even told me that she has a lot of the neurodivergent symptoms. She is also a highly emotional,ultrasensitive person like me too. One of the problems,she tends to overreact to things and lose her temper easily and that led to her verbally and physically abusing me. She got easily angry if she felt like she was being talked down to or "getting smart" with her which she perceived me to do when I was talking back like in a retort or rebuttal, especially if I am trying to make a valid point that might come off rather sharp. She confessed to me that she didn't feel like she was smart until her early 30's. I read the same list to my maternal aunt Dominga (born on Nov 9, 1961),and she told me that has a lot of the neurodivergent symptoms too. Her daughter,Shavon(born on Nov 30, 1980) was diagnosed ADHD at 7 years old. I even talked to her other daughter,Gina(born on August 14, 1982),and she told me can relate to ADHD. I talked about neurodivergent conditions to my maternal stepgrandmother(born on Sept 11, 1941). She told me that my uncle(her son) Eddie(born on Sept 3, 1961), who had speech problems, was recommended to be be put on medication for hyperactivity,but she refused. She told me that she's hyperactive,and so was my grandfather(born June 22, 1935) and they weren't on medication for their hyperactivity. Therefore,she thought it made no sense for my uncle to be medicated for his hyperactivity. She also told me that my maternal grandfather's half brother,Gino is Dyslexic. She,herself,told me that she has problems remembering things that she reads. My uncle Eddie's son,Joey(born Feb 18, 1994) is described as a hyperactive type. Most of my mom's family have significant neurodivergent traits(mainly ADHD). Therefore,it seems like I come from a neurodivergent family.
I realized that my life purpose was to help my fellow neurodivergents,and that includes raising the issue about the need to distinguish neurodivergence from psychiatric disorders to prevent the psychiatric misdiagnosing of neurodivergents. I don't want my fellow neurodivergents to go through what I and many other neurodivergents have gone through. I grew up believing that I was meant to do something special,but I didn't know what. I seriously believed that. That's the thing "special". I was referred to as being "special" in my early childhood years because of my having special education needs. If it wasn't for special education therapies(auditory therapy,speech therapy,phonics,motor skills therapy), I'd still be autistic-like. I did resemble somebody with autism,and that's why I misplaced with the mentally retarded in 1st grade. Therefore,I can relate to the new agers label of Crystal given by New Agers for autism. Now I am Aspergers-like. I never had the nonverbal communication issues though. I was always very good with nonverbal communications. Dyspraxia and Autistic Spectrum have a strong overlap in symptoms/traits. Therefore, as a Dyspraxic,I always resembled somebody as being on autistic spectrum. Any ways....As a person that had special education needs, I am meant to help others with special education needs...especially children. Therefore,I was meant to do something special literally.
DANDA was formed by neurodivergents for neurodivergents. I know some of these people from Dyspraxia Yahoo group.
The term Neuro-Diversity was first coined in the USA in the nineties on a computer list for people with Autism and Asperger’s Syndrome. Internet searches on the term tend to direct you to sites dealing with these conditions. It was also used by dyslexics on one of their lists in the USA. Unlike most names for ‘medical’ conditions, it was not chosen by the professionals.
However, many have now adopted it. Neuro-Diversity refers to the spectrum of neurological profiles describing how effective an individual is in processing information. This information comes in many forms, including written and spoken language, sounds, visual images, light, temperature, touch, texture and taste – as well as movement and co-ordination signals form the brain.
The processing of all these things includes not only receiving and interpreting, but also transmitting, concentrating and storing. For most people, i.e. the Neuro-Typical (NT), the cognitive profile is relatively smooth, with little variation in effectiveness of information processing.
This is in line with their general level of intellectual and reasoning ability. In contrast, a minority of people, i.e. the Neuro-Divergent (ND) have a cognitive profile which shows significant peaks and troughs, denoting significant disparity between the best and worst of their information processing.
The processing differences are present from birth, and are independent of any basic physical malfunctions, for example of eyes, ears or limbs. It is thought that 10% of the population is significantly ND, with many more having some degree of neuro-diversity. The norms of ‘easy’ and ‘difficult’ tend not to work for NDs, and in many cases are actually reversed.
For some, complex mathematical analysis is ‘a walk in the park’, where an actual walk in the park can be a nightmare.
What conditions does Neuro-Diversity include
• The conditions currently considered part of Neuro-Diversity are Dyspraxia, Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, AD (H)D, Asperger’s Syndrome, Autism and Tourette’s syndrome, as well as other conditions such as Semantic Pragmatic Disorder and Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD). What problems can be caused by to lack of Awareness
• Over and above the difficulties that can be caused by Neuro-Diversity itself, there are a number of issues that arise as a result of a lack of awareness of Neuro-Diversity by NDs themselves, and by society at large. Many NDs, even as adults, are not aware of the condition, let alone that they have it.
There is a very low level of awareness among the medical profession in relation to adults. Many NDs have got themselves into a pattern (consciously or unconsciously) of masking or over-compensating for their difficulties from birth, and may find it hard to be assertive.
As a result of having to deal with their conditions in a world not willing to accommodate them, the ND can have mental health problems, including anxiety, depression and low self-esteem, and some can end up with drug/alcohol abuse which may also mask their condition. Many have problems realising their (often considerable) potential.
For example, the workplace is designed around the needs/features of the Neuro-Typical, e.g. open plan offices without screens to reduce distractions, and an expectation of organisational/administrative skills and an ability to multi-task.
The sooner the associated conditions are diagnosed and people given the necessary support and opportunities, the more likely it will be that they can lead fulfilled lives.
www.danda.org.uk/
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 10:54 AM
I want to make a point about the dismissal of the transneptunians which you seem to do in regards to my own neuro-divergence
first of all, Pluto is a transneptunian too. It's a kuiper belt object. It's one of over 1,000 kuiper belt objects. astronomers have already shown that to be the case. but yet, Pluto gets a lot of emphasis in Astrology. Why not the other transneptunians? Why not the transneptunians that are dwarf planets like Pluto is? Those are Eris,Haumea,and Makemake. Eris is larger than Pluto. Yes, size does matter. If it didn't, Astrologers wouldn't be ignoring other transneptunians since they were first discovered. That was in 1992 with 1992 QB1 which was the first cubewano discovered. Cubewano is the classification that astronomers give to classical kuiper belt object. Now that one was found to be larger than Pluto, astrologers are paying a lot of attention to that object now. Of course, size means something to the astronomers. It led to to a new definition of a planet including a new classication which is dwarf planet. It also led to the new classification of Plutoid which is given to transneptunian dwarf planets. Pluto,Eris,Haumea,and Makemake fall in that category.
If it wasn't for Astronomy, there would be no use of Uranus,Neptune,and Pluto in charts.
remember not all Astrologers use them, and they were not used by astrologers in the old days, especially the ancient times.
you might attribute my neuro-divergent to an unaspected Uranus, but most Vedic Astrologers,Classical Astrologers wouldn't. The don't use the outerplanets.
They would dismiss your Uranus view just like you dismiss my view about the transneptunians. They already use Saturn,Rahu (North Lunar Node) and Ketu (South Lunar Node) for outerplanet influences. They have the views that they don't need to use outerplanets when they believe that Saturn,Rahu,and Ketu can show the same things that outerplanets could show.
technically, my Uranus isn't unaspected
Eris opposes Uranus within 3 degree orb. Eris is larger planet than Pluto. Pluto is an object that is used regularly with aspects with aspects up to 8 degrees...even 10 degrees (Liz Greene). Therefore,logic says that Eris aspects are just as valid as Pluto's aspects. Also, my Uranus also sextiles Ceres. Therefore, Uranus aspects two fellow dwarf planets of Pluto.
also my Uranus is involved in minor aspects to my chart that form midpoint pictures. the 11th harmonic
My Uranus conjunct Mercury/Ascendant midpoint,oppose Mars/Saturn midpoint is due to all of them aspecting in 11th harmonic.
also, my Mercury,Saturn,Uranus,and Sedna are in 11th harmonic with corresponding midpoint pictures of Mercury oppose Saturn/Uranus and Sedna oppose Mercury/Uranus as well as the planetary picture of Mercury/Sedna midpoint oppose Saturn/Uranus.
in my humble opinion,
Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,Chiron used in Astrology reflect the 20th century
the use of Pluto's fellow transneptunians,Chiron's fellow centaurs reflect the 21st century
I am all for updating Astrology and changing with the modern times,discoveries of astronomers.
oh another thing, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. had an "unaspected" Uranus too, but he wasn't a neuro-divergent.
Winona Ryder was born on the same day as me,and she has an "unaspected" Uranus too
There is a reason why the Midheaven is viewed as the most important point in Uranian Astrology and Cosmobiology. It's the most time-sensitive point. It represents the moment or the minute. Cosmobiologists and Uranian Astrologers look at the aspects (including midpoints) of the Midheaven when it comes to rectification purposes. In Cosmobiology, if the Midheaven is the brain proper, then a transneptunian,Haumea squaring it indicating my neuro-divergence makes sense. If Pluto was squaring it, that would be considered. So why not Haumea? because it's not equal to Pluto? That can't be the case. It's a dwarf planet like Pluto. Why be prejudiced against Haumea and other transneptunian objects? It would be the same mentality that most Vedic Astrologers have against Uranus,Neptune,Pluto.
I believe in moving forward, progressing. Not being rigid,stuck in the past.
Therefore, I adjust to discoveries of astronomy.
Many astrologers have done that in the past...
by including Uranus,Neptune,Pluto,and Chiron in charts!
I rest my case!
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 3:53 AMraymond
"I believe that Neptune is strong in a neurodivergent. They are confusing and can easily be confused in some ways. They are hard to pin down,often misunderstood/misdiagnosed, and put on medication like antipsychotic,Risperdal have been used to treat behavior problems in people(especially children) with ADHD and Autistic Spectrum Disorders. Many of them are ultrasensitive.."
By 'they' do you mean people with Neptune strong or neurodivergents? Or are you saying that because they are hard to pin down put on medication etc there is a link to neptune?
"Those are some things that I would check out when looking at charts of neurodivergents. I don't want to focus on just their weaknesses. Their strengths should also be looked at imho. My view is that they are not disordered but different."
But again, surely this is true of everyone. I mean we're ALL different and we should focus on EVERYONE'S strengths and weaknesses.
"Different doesn't necessarily mean deficient. We all have our differences in one way or another?"
I totally agree. If we are deficient in something however the onus is on us to try and work on this for our own sake. Many children who are dyslexic actually believe that it is 'uncurable' or 'unworkable'. As in "oh I can't read, I'm dyslexic" which is entirely untrue and is part and parcel of what I mentioned earlier about their being victims of a failing education system, particularly in the UK I might add.
However I would also stress that different does not mean better either. There are also many dyslexics etc who believe their own brain patterning to be superior to the 'norm'. I don't believe this for a moment. This is partly what I have against the Indigo theory, that there are some people with differing brain patterns viewed as somehow more spiritual/enlightening etc, which is, to me at least, utter b****x. Different means different. It is not a synonym for deficient and it is not a synonym for superior.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 9:05 AM
"I believe that Neptune is strong in a neurodivergent. They are confusing and can easily be confused in some ways. They are hard to pin down,often misunderstood/misdiagnosed, and put on medication like antipsychotic,Risperdal have been used to treat behavior problems in people(especially children) with ADHD and Autistic Spectrum Disorders. Many of them are ultrasensitive.."
Yeah. Neptune is said to rule drugs,medications and connected to ultrasensitivity.
However, the transneptunians can be connected to ultrasensitivity too. After all,they orbit beyond Neptune. They are more metaphysically oriented than Neptune.
"By 'they' do you mean people with Neptune strong or neurodivergents? Or are you saying that because they are hard to pin down put on medication etc there is a link to neptune?"
neurodivergents
"Those are some things that I would check out when looking at charts of neurodivergents. I don't want to focus on just their weaknesses. Their strengths should also be looked at imho. My view is that they are not disordered but different."
"But again, surely this is true of everyone. I mean we're ALL different and we should focus on EVERYONE'S strengths and weaknesses."
right but the neuro-divergents' strengths and weaknesses are a lot more pronounced, and that has to be understood. DANDA explains that. There is also the issue with twice exception which means people with special education needs that are gifted. The weaknesses need to be addressed,corrected,remediated in some way to help them to be able to utilize their strengths like I had auditory therapy,speech therapy,and phonics. Without those things, I wouldn't be able to use words efficiently. I wouldn't develop my strengths in written language if it wasn't for those special education therapies. DANDA explains that.
"Different doesn't necessarily mean deficient. We all have our differences in one way or another?"
I totally agree. If we are deficient in something however the onus is on us to try and work on this for our own sake. Many children who are dyslexic actually believe that it is 'uncurable' or 'unworkable'. As in "oh I can't read, I'm dyslexic" which is entirely untrue and is part and parcel of what I mentioned earlier about their being victims of a failing education system, particularly in the UK I might add."
That's why it's important to have special education programs,classes as well as compassionate,understanding,competent teachers. Not only that but to develop good self esteem. It also helps to have awareness,understanding of these neuro-divergent conditions to help them understand that they're not stupid,dumb,or a loss cause. A lot of neuro-divergents think that of themselves. That's why many have depression and anxiety. Dyslexia gets complicated when you have other neuro-divergent conditions like I have Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD. That tends to be the norm and not the exception.
"However I would also stress that different does not mean better either. There are also many dyslexics etc who believe their own brain patterning to be superior to the 'norm'. I don't believe this for a moment. This is partly what I have against the Indigo theory, that there are some people with differing brain patterns viewed as somehow more spiritual/enlightening etc, which is, to me at least, utter b****x. Different means different. It is not a synonym for deficient and it is not a synonym for superior. "
I agree with you on that. I stressed that many times. I met some condescending dyslexics and ADHDers.
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Re: Aspects Only - Ignore Signs or Houses?
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:49 AM
"There is also Mercury conjunct Sun/Neptune midpoint which can indicate weak nerves, speech defects as well as imaginative,visual,picture thinking which fits with Dyslexics"
because my Sun is conjunct Ixion with only 5 minutes of arc.
if Mercury is conjunct my Sun/Neptune midpoint, then Mercury is conjunct the Neptune/Ixion midpoint too
with Ixion being a plutino (3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune,and so named after an underworld character) like Pluto, it's astronomically similar.....so astrologically similar ... therefore, Mercury conjunct Neptune/Ixion midpoint is like Mercury conjunct Neptune/Pluto midpoint.
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