The house cusps and ascendant

topic posted Wed, October 28, 2009 - 4:25 AM by  Synthesis
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I'm curious about this - do anyone here know what it is that draws the line of a house cusp?
We all know that the ascendant is the horizon where the sun rises and the descendant is where the sun goes down, but what makes the other cusps? What is it that makes for instance the aquarius ascendant have such a big first house and why is the cancer ascendants first house so comparatively small? Do anyone here know this?
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  • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

    Wed, October 28, 2009 - 4:47 AM
    sugarmoon

    The simple answer is that it depends on what house system you're using. Each house system calculates where the cusp line is differently. Equal house is the most obvious and easy. Every subsequent house begins 30degrees after the ascendant.

    So if your ascendant is 7d Taurus, the second house is 7d Gemini, third is 7d Cancer etc etc

    Placidus, Koch etc use more complicated mathematics to calculate them by also taking into consideration the MC and IC which begin the 10th and 4th respectively. I've never researched what that 'formula' is itself.
    Basically though, the Placidus/Koch etc house systems are more determined by the latitude of the place of birth, which means that closer to the equator, the houses will appear more equal, but closer to the poles, they will appear less equal to the point where as you move closer to the poles you may find houses which are only a handful of degrees wide, with other houses swallowing up several signs.

    This disparity regarding the houses in relation to latitudes has been remarked several times recently on this tribe. Raymond and Mantis have recently suggested using Whole system as it and Equal are the only ones to not suffer from this apparant lopsidedness of the houses.
    Whole system is calculated by putting the first house at 0d of the sign of the ascendant. Every subsequent house begins at 0d of each subsequent sign.
    So if you have 7d Taurus as your ascendant, then the 1st House starts at 0d Taurus, the second at 0d Gemini etc etc


    • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

      Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:04 AM
      Paul

      Thank you for clearifying it a little bit, although I know it differs depending on the house system, I just didn't want to narrow my question down to for instance placidus since I'm curious as to what calculations are used in the other systems as well.

      "the Placidus/Koch etc house systems are more determined by the latitude of the place of birth, which means that closer to the equator, the houses will appear more equal, but closer to the poles, they will appear less equal to the point where as you move closer to the poles you may find houses which are only a handful of degrees wide, with other houses swallowing up several signs."

      Is closer to the poles less equal? My houses are very equal to each other and I'm born in Stockholm (which I THINK count as close to the poles?) other than that I just checked that a virgo risings first house in australia is bigger than one around europe.

      "This disparity regarding the houses in relation to latitudes has been remarked several times recently on this tribe. Raymond and Mantis have recently suggested using Whole system as it and Equal are the only ones to not suffer from this apparant lopsidedness of the houses. "

      Yes, on a sidenote I've been trying out new house systems lately and the equal house system is mainly the one besides placidus that I find considerable. Through some research on trying out other house systems I can't help but think placidus is the best - although when it comes to such charts with really uneven houses like the aquarius asc's I actually think equal does make it more accurate.
      • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

        Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:17 AM
        sugarmoon

        "Yes, on a sidenote I've been trying out new house systems lately and the equal house system is mainly the one besides placidus that I find considerable"

        Yeah I normally use equal or Koch, I just find them more accurate.

        "Is closer to the poles less equal? My houses are very equal to each other and I'm born in Stockholm (which I THINK count as close to the poles?) other than that I just checked that a virgo risings first house in australia is bigger than one around europe."

        The time of day is also important. If you were to cast a chart for another time of day you might see bigger differences. Although Stockholm certainly is closer to the poles its not too much further north than say Aberdeen in Scotland. Try somewhere more northerly in sweden/norway etc and you will start to notice the differences. I can't remember my geography too well now, but you could try Trondheim in Norway which I think is more northerly of stockholm, or better yet try murmask in russia. You'll begin to notice that things go wrong quickly.

        "other than that I just checked that a virgo risings first house in australia is bigger than one around europe. "

        Some signs rise quicker and slower in the northern hemisphere in comparison to the southern hemisphere. In the northern hemisphere Libra, Scorpio and Sag are slow risers, so more peole have them as their rising sign, whereas Pisces and Aries are much quicker and therefore rarer. The opposite is true in Australia.
        With that in mind its worth remembering that the signs of ascension are likely to behave differently in the southern hemisphere in comparison to the northern, but either way, the closer to the poles (be that northern or southern) the disparity and unequalness of the houses will become more obvious.
        • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

          Wed, October 28, 2009 - 5:58 AM
          Paul

          "Try somewhere more northerly in sweden/norway etc and you will start to notice the differences. I can't remember my geography too well now, but you could try Trondheim in Norway which I think is more northerly of stockholm, or better yet try murmask in russia. You'll begin to notice that things go wrong quickly"

          I did try a virgo rising both upnorth in sweden and in murmask but the houses didn't change all that much, and they don't even change much in cape town, africa. So virgo rising seem to keep pretty equal houses wherever the location, and aquarius and capricorn rising seems to have more or less uneven houses.

          On the subject of freaky charts I did a chart interpretation once for a girl who had EVERY planet in the 6th house, and that's the freakiest chart I've ever seen. And I can prove it with the help of my insane memory - she was born october 31, 1983 at about 4.00 p.m. in Boden, sweden. That girls first house is 4 degrees wide!!! She's semi famous in sweden. Her mother is a famous author and she herself is a journalist, blogger, columnist etc.

          I just now created a really freaky chart, check out may 4, 2000 at 3:15 a.m. in LuleƄ - "lulea" works - Sweden. There's a big pile of taurus planets in the 1st and FOUR whole intercepted signs in the first house. It's quite a strange sight.

          "Some signs rise quicker and slower in the northern hemisphere in comparison to the southern hemisphere. In the northern hemisphere Libra, Scorpio and Sag are slow risers, so more peole have them as their rising sign, whereas Pisces and Aries are much quicker and therefore rarer. The opposite is true in Australia.
          With that in mind its worth remembering that the signs of ascension are likely to behave differently in the southern hemisphere in comparison to the northern"

          Yes, I've notice that too and also thought that for instance an aries rising from australia might not be the same type as a european aries rising ;).
          • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

            Wed, October 28, 2009 - 6:14 AM
            sugarmoon

            "I did try a virgo rising both upnorth in sweden and in murmask but the houses didn't change all that much, and they don't even change much in cape town, africa. So virgo rising seem to keep pretty equal houses wherever the location, and aquarius and capricorn rising seems to have more or less uneven houses."

            Oh I never realised that that would happen. I wonder what tells us about Virgo rising and being ordered? Or is it just a coincidence?
            I've just been trying to test this out. I've gone on to astro.com and literally just kept changing the hour for murmansk on 8 March 1958 (random). However I've noticed something odd. I tried 05:56 and the asc is Sag, but at 05:57 it is Gemini. How can that happen? The whole ascendance seems to get screwed up.

            Anyways I finally got one for 2am which is Virgo Rising, and the house systems are still screwed up (tho perhaps not quite as much). The fourth, fifth and sixth are all about 10d each, whereas the third for example is about 50d.

            "On the subject of freaky charts I did a chart interpretation once for a girl who had EVERY planet in the 6th house, and that's the freakiest chart I've ever seen. And I can prove it with the help of my insane memory - she was born october 31, 1983 at about 4.00 p.m. in Boden, sweden. That girls first house is 4 degrees wide!!! She's semi famous in sweden. Her mother is a famous author and she herself is a journalist, blogger, columnist etc."

            Yeah crazy! I just checked it out. Of course its because the 6th House spans over 120d!!!! Again, using equal and we'd have a more 'normal' house.

            "and also thought that for instance an aries rising from australia might not be the same type as a european aries rising ;)."

            YES! I've wondered that too! I like how you think!






            • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

              Wed, October 28, 2009 - 6:31 AM
              paul

              "I've just been trying to test this out. I've gone on to astro.com and literally just kept changing the hour for murmansk on 8 March 1958 (random). However I've noticed something odd. I tried 05:56 and the asc is Sag, but at 05:57 it is Gemini. How can that happen?"

              I'm also on astrodienst trying on a bunch of locations and ascendants and just checked the march 8, 58 05:56/57 difference in murmansk.... That's some weird shit... Besides that the ascendant becomes the opposite sign within 1 minute, at 05:56 the asc and mc are conjuncting each other! That is so strange..! Even if one changes to equal they're still CONJUNCTING! Haha I can't believe my eyes. I guess the house systems kind of falls apart up at the poles. I wonder what it's like down around antarctica... But are people born there at all? There's so many questions :)

              "Anyways I finally got one for 2am which is Virgo Rising, and the house systems are still screwed up (tho perhaps not quite as much). The fourth, fifth and sixth are all about 10d each, whereas the third for example is about 50d. "

              Did you get a somewhat screwed up virgo? How and where? I tried the murmansk march 8, 58 with a virgo rising but the houses jumped back to normal
              • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

                Wed, October 28, 2009 - 6:44 AM
                sugarmoon

                "the asc and mc are conjuncting each other! That is so strange..! Even if one changes to equal they're still CONJUNCTING! Haha I can't believe my eyes. I guess the house systems kind of falls apart up at the poles. I wonder what it's like down around antarctica... But are people born there at all? There's so many questions :)"

                omg I didn't notice that! That's so messed up!

                "I wonder what it's like down around antarctica... But are people born there at all? There's so many questions :) "

                Tehy certainly are born there, but lets even say you were doing some kind of electional astrology, or horary from that location? It doesn't have to be natal astrology. Imagine thinking, good, Sag rising will be good for opening this Multi-Cultural Centre here in Murmansk. You advise the client to open at whatever time, and they open one minute later and ACTUALLY have a sign 6 signs away from where you meant!

                "Did you get a somewhat screwed up virgo? How and where? I tried the murmansk march 8, 58 with a virgo rising but the houses jumped back to normal "

                Not as screwed up as the rest, but still not exactly equal either - 15:50.
                Much more normalised than some of the others. Leo isn't too messed up either from what I checked.
                • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

                  Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:15 AM
                  paul

                  "Tehy certainly are born there, but lets even say you were doing some kind of electional astrology, or horary from that location? It doesn't have to be natal astrology. Imagine thinking, good, Sag rising will be good for opening this Multi-Cultural Centre here in Murmansk. You advise the client to open at whatever time, and they open one minute later and ACTUALLY have a sign 6 signs away from where you meant! "

                  hahahahahaahaha

                  " Much more normalised than some of the others. Leo isn't too messed up either from what I checked."

                  Yeah I noticed leos tendency for balance as well. But I'm almost a little annoyed with my own charts "naturally" equal houses because no house really stands out... although not that a 4 sign-intercepted 1st house seems appealing..
                  But I guess there must be some meaning to the different house sizes considering that there are astrologers who came up with these calculating systems, - cancer with it's really small first house (+ the 6th and 12th really big), leos and virgos houses basically even, capricorn and aquarius 1st and 7th really big.

                  I'm not sure what logic there is to it though, because cap and aquarius risings aren't exactly the most outgoing, room-filling people, and cancer risings aren't very 6th/12th house themed people..? I don't know, it makes me wonder...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: The house cusps and ascendant

                    Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:20 AM
                    sugarmoon

                    I'd imagine the reality is much simpler, in that the people who defined those house systems either didn't think or didn't care about those 'distant' towns. They were probably european or american with 'normal' houses.
                    I'd be interested in knowing whether there are any murmansk astrologers around and what house systems they choose to use. For the most part, Equal house is the safest (or Whole)!
                    • Re: The house cusps and ascendant

                      Wed, October 28, 2009 - 7:28 AM
                      " I'd imagine the reality is much simpler, in that the people who defined those house systems either didn't think or didn't care about those 'distant' towns. They were probably european or american with 'normal' houses."

                      Yes, surely. But there's still a difference in the sizes of the houses in the american and european countries. But maybe it's just a coinsidence like you say...

                      "I'd be interested in knowing whether there are any murmansk astrologers around and what house systems they choose to use."

                      Haha yeah, I tried to search people born in murmansk, I found some artist but there weren't much information about the guy.

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