Anybody else notice any correspondences between astrological signs and enneagram types? For example: Most people with Scorpio-heavy charts seem to be Enneagram Type 8:
"People of this personality type are essentially unwilling to be controlled, either by others or by their circumstances; they fully intend to be masters of their fate. Eights are strong willed, decisive, practical, tough minded and energetic. They also tend to be domineering; their unwillingness to be controlled by others frequently manifests in the need to control others, instead. When healthy, this tendency is kept under check, but the tendency is always there, nevertheless, and can assume a central role in the Eight's interpersonal relationships.
Eights generally have powerful instincts and strong physical appetites which they indulge without feelings of shame or guilt. They want a lot out of life and feel fully prepared to…."
I'm a two, typical virgo, I guess?
Well, there are twelve astrological signs, but only nine enneagram types, so a few of the signs would need to double-up in a type -- if any correspondences hold. I tend to associate Enneagram Type 2 with Pisces, but I see how the complementary sign -- Virgo -- could belong there, too.
I heard that type twos could have tendancies toward stalking. heh I've never been a stalker, but I've been stalked...
The Helper stalking? I've never heard that. But the astrological correlation makes some sense: Pisces helps by caring, Virgo helps by serving.
What would a Leo tend to bee with the correlation?
Good question....Leos? Speak up for yourselves (as you love to do)!
After learning about the enneagram through some of my friends, in my own mind, I find it hard to separate astrology and the enneagram. . . I think of astrology as a more detail-oriented way of examining certain things in one's life, while the enneagram sort of lumps everything together and categorizes the personality in a more holistic way. . With the enneagram, it's possible to take all of the aspects, planetary placements, and everything else into account. It's harder to get stuck on the details with the enneagram. I really like being able to examine things through both systems.
I'm a 6w7 and an aries sun, taurus rising, and gemini moon. If I were to pick a sign in astrology that might represent the type 6, I'd say scorpio. . .I wouldn't really describe myself as scorpionic, but it makes sense if you're examining my chart. My aries sun is in the 12th house, making the aggressive, bold expression of the sun filtered through piscean areas of life. Meh, anyway, that's my attempt at explaining things. . . it's sort of hard to put words to the connection I understand through the enneagram and astrology, but I definitely do! :)
For those interested in exploring the enneagram to look for astrological parallels, this is probably the best enneagram website:
Mine came out as 2w1
I"m Aquarius Sun/Aries Moon/Cancer ascendant.
I guess the Helper is Cancer rising, and the Reformer is Aquarius
Interesting. Thanks, it's the first time I've met Enneagrams.
Just out of curiosity -- Is Pisces or Virgo in any way prominent in your chart, Ann?
From just briefly looking at it, I'd attribute Virgo's to 1 because of the righteousness. 2's actually sound more like Aquarius to me with the altruism and serving humanity. 3's are pretty clearly Cap's and Leos. 4 would be Aries as the individualist. 5's make me think of Gemini's. 6 would be Taurus. 7's resonate most strongly with Sag. 8 would be Scorpio. 9 sounds like Pisces. I dunno where I'd stick Cancer and Libra.
I'm a 4/5/7 and Virgo/Aries/Gemini.
Another way to go about compiling data... I noticed the Enneagram Institute lists quite a few celebrities for each type... Look the celebrities astro info up and see if you find any patterns. I might do it myself, in fact... Just to see.
Good thought, Leah -- although I suspect Sun signs may not tell the whole story. Prominence of an astrological sign in the chart, for any reason, seems to be more important as a basis for correlatiing with enneagram types. Or, looked at another way -- consider the astrological signs as archetypes of forces that shape character and personality. How do those archetypes relate to the enneagram types?
So far as I can tell, there is no consensus yet on these correlations, although it seems like many people intuitively sense that there are correlations -- this is a new area of inquiry, so your impressions are as valid as anyone's....
I'm a four and a Gemini. Not sure if ther's a correspondence there. My moon/pluto in the fifth house seemes more "four" to me...
Hi Od - you asked "Just out of curiosity -- Is Pisces or Virgo in any way prominent in your chart, Ann? '
I have Pisces at MC (and Jupiter in Pisces 4 degrees away from MC.)
Exactly -- a good example of the complexity involved here. I would attribute your enneagram type (#2 -- The Helper) to your Pisces Midheaven, conjunct Jupiter. That would seem to suggest you feel your calling in life (Midheaven) is to help others, sharing your abundance (Jupiter) with compassion (Pisces).
Marion -- Johnny Depp is also a four and a Gemini. You're in good company.
My test came up as One "The Reformer",... butwith strong influence of 5 "the investigator", 6 , 4 and 3.
Then these: Wing 5w4 - 12.5
Wing 5w6 - 12.5
Wing 6w5 - 12.5
Wing 4w5 - 12.5
Wing 4w3 - 12.3
Mary, do you see any correlation between this and your astrological chart?
Oh, I most definitely agree it's not just the Sun sign. My take on myself was just the quick and dirty. I was lazy. =P I'll have to do some more indepth thinking on how this all applies to my chart later, not much time before bed now. =)
Also, I change 9 from Pisces to Libra. Hello, diplomat.
I am a 1 with a w2 (not sure what that means) but I am the reformer...and I do relate to it, the other one was the 4 I think, the individual....Mary...you are a 1 as well...do you think this fits you?
Leah -- Right on, with the correlation of Libra and Type 9.
I dislike the Enneagram - because it essentially evolved out of some of Jungs work and is essentially just astrological principles heavily watered down. I dont feel there is any real value to it at all.
My bad on saying "essentially" twice in the same sentence. =/
Effectiveness is the measure of truth, Paul. If it doesn't do anything for you, no need to spend time on it. As a matter of historical accuracy, however, the roots of the enneagram are far older that Jung's work. The geometry of the enneagram dates back at least 2,500 years; ideas related to the nine personality types associated with the enneagram go back at least as far as the fourth century A.D. The first westerner to resurrect it more recently was the Russian mystic Gurdjieff, around the end of the 19th century. A fascinating and comprehensive philosophical system lies behind the enneagram, which is intended to serve as a means to spiritual integration -- waking up from the trance of "personality" and returning to the original source, or Essence.
"The core truth that the Enneagram conveys to us is that we are much more that our personality. Beyond the limitations of our personalities, each of us exists as a vast, largely unrecognized quality of Being or Presence -- what is called our Essence. In spiritual language, we could say that within each person is an individual spark of the Divine, although we have forgotten this fundamental truth because we have fallen asleep to our true nature. We do not experience our own Divine nature; nor do we experience others as manifestations of the Divine. Instead, we often become hard, even cynical, treating others as objects to be defended against or used for our own gratification.
"But as we learn to bring awareness to our personality, it becomes more transparent, and we are able to experience our Essence more directly. We still function in the world, but with a growing realization of our connection with Divinity. We become aware that we are part of a Divine Presence all around us and in us that is constantly and miraculously unfolding.
"The Enneagram can help us see what prevents us from remembering this deep truth about who we really are, the truth of our spiritual nature. It does this by providing highly specific insights into our psychological and spiritual makeup. The Enneagram also helps us by giving us a direction in which to work, but only as long as we remember that it is not telling us who we are, but how we have limited who we are. Remember, the Enneagram does not put us in a box, it shows us the box we are already in -- and the way out."
-- from "The Wisdom of the Enneagram," by Don Richard Riso
Well Paul, your denunciation inspired me to check it out:
Wing 8w7 - 13.7
Wing 7w8 - 13.4
Wing 8w9 - 13
you're right in terms of this not holding a candle to astrology.
This was very subjective, I could have answered both extremes to more than a few of the questions, so I had to go neutral on them . . . I dunno. The result seems more true than not, but the questions mostly sucked in the sense of being too broad and general.
"The result seems more true than not, but the questions mostly sucked in the sense of being too broad and general. "
Precisely - I dislike it for the same reasons I dislike numerology, its too broad and sweeping to be of any REAL merit (in my opinion).
Steve and Paul -- The Riso-Hudson Test is not the Enneagram, it's just a tool to assist you in identifying your Enneagram type. You don't need the test at all, if you want to take the time to read about each of the types and contemplate them until one resonates more deeply than the others with you. Certainly, this is not as clear-cut as astrology -- your chart is completely determined by the circumstances of your birth, and there is no soul-searching needed to identify your astrological sign. If, however, you find that you can identify with an enneagram type, the more interesting question is: how does this correlate with your astrological chart?
kat, the "1w2" means your enneagram type is basically Type 1, The Reformer, with a 2 "wing" -- meaning that you also manifest some qualities of the adjacent Type 2, The Helper. After you read the descriptions of both types, what can you say about how this correlates with your astrological chart? Do you find it conisistent overall, or with specific aspects?
Od thanks for leading the post so well, encouraging others as I see it to express whatever they feel....am I mistaken or did you not post what you are?
If not, what is your type?
As for me being 1 than possibly 2, I thank the higher ups it's not the reverse. Does it resonate astrologically? Well, type 1 I would associate with aquarius.....which I don't have at all in me but am incredibly drawn to them (aquarius rules my 5th house albeit empty of planets.)
I feel first and foremost that it is most important to be me...I may redefine that every day or every year...it depends....for instance, I am drawn to counseling but not in the stereotypical sense..(envision 1 on 1 people in a little room dealing with one reality with old typical theories) but rather incorporating astrology, alternative health, empowering tools into my practice...preferrably with groups and not one on one.
As for being a type 2, I spent most of my life doing it, growing up and I think it is more of a survival mechanism (or it has mutated into one....) ratther than a true passion of mine...ha ha..not to say I don't want to help others but to be honest...I am tired of trying to help everyone as a means of getting validated (yes help could be purely altruistic...but come on when is it not ever really about getting what you want back? And as humans is that not essential?)
People can either take my help or not and I have learned to give it selectively...most people in my unhumble opinion don't want help so much as to be HEARD.
Anyway, don't know if that answers your question...but those are my thoughts.
Hi, Kat -- First of all, to answer your question, I am a Type 4, evenly divided between wing 3 and wing 5. I sense that this correlates with the prominence of both Aries and Cancer in my chart. As for your Type 1, wing 2 -- I know it seems tempting to see forward-thinking Aquarius in The Reformer -- that would be my inclination, too -- but looking at your chart gives me some new insight. I see a correlation between The Reformer's perfectionism and fine eye for detail, and the group of planets you have in Virgo; along with that, The Reformer's energy and drive, with a tendency to flare-ups of temper, seems to relate to the prominence of Aries in your chart. Aries is on the Descendant (cusp of the 7th House of relationships), conjunct Saturn -- which suggests the kind of organized, disciplined drive typical of The Reformer in relationship to others. You also have your North Node in Aries, indicating that becoming more Aries-like may be a path to balance and fulfillment for you. And your compassionate Moon in Pisces would certainly swing your Type 1 towards a wing 2: The Helper. Does any of this resonate with you?
Hey Od, thanks for your informative feedback, I have felt more virgo as I grow older but am not really sure why since I think I only have 3 planets in it in western but in vedic, as Sam would say, I am VERY virgo.
I usually feel tightly wound, I have trouble with patience and I actually get a "high" when I can be efficient about as much as possible in my life. However you can see that might not work well with relationships :-)
N/N/Saturn Aries is a pull for me....I want more of that in my life, I want that warrior energy and not the victim energy I grew up surrounded by.
Yes to bouts of temper, they flare up as you say and then pass....but I am usually very careful of showing it directly to the person I am upset with...I wait until my libra rising and mercury can communicate in a civil manner otherwise my sharp scorpio tongue will slice them.
And yeah my pisces moon...maybe one day I will like it better....for now, the only thing I like about it is my urge to paint, write, explore...otherwise, I don't like being pulled into peoples stuff.
My reformed list of correlations:
1 - Virgo
2 - Aquarius and Pisces
3 - Leo and Capricorn
4 - Aries and Cancer
5 - Gemini
6 - Taurus
7 - Sagittarius
8 - Scorpio
9 - Libra
If I look to find what's prominent in my chart first (this might get confusing)... Sun, AC, and Chiron are all ruled by Mercury. Mercury is also my Singleton (only planet I have in an Air sign). Mercury is in Libra which is ruled by Venus... Venus in the 6th house (Virgo, more Mercury) conjuncts Pluto in Scorpio. Sun, Mercury, and Pluto are all in the 5th house which indicates some Leo influence. And the Virgo Sun with Venus, Saturn, and Uranus all in the 6th house give me some of that Virgoanness.
Based on my correlations and my prominences... I should resonate with 1/5/3 and maybe some 8. Hit the spot with the 5 and while I do see some parts of myself in the 1, 3, and 8's they don't resonate with me as much as others.
If I look at my Enneagram type and then try to find that in my chart....
Aries Moon and N. Node, Cancer's the key to my cardinal T-square (that'd be 4). Gemini rules my AC and Chiron. AC is also a part of a grand square (there's 5). And Saturn, Uranus, and my DC are ruled by Sag. Uranus and the DC being conjunct and also in that grand square. (there's 7).
Leah -- Your intuition on this is very compelling. I will need to take some time to contemplate your "reformed list" and test it against the correlations reported by our fellow Tribesters....right now, I can't find anything to disagree with. Thank you!
I don't understand the desire to correlate other systems with astrology. Any system worth its salt should make enough sense in its own right, as astrology does. The enneagrams are interesting, but they're hardly likely to shed any new light on astrology, or vice versa.
How about cuz it's FUN? =P
Steve, you may be right. This is just something I'm curious about, as a scientist -- not so much because I want to "shed any new light on astrology, or vice versa," but because I more want to shed new light on the object of both astrology and the enneagram: the human condition. My sense is that all systems of knowledge are holistic and holographic, in that each one provides a different view (from a different angle, and through a different lens) of the same fundamental reality. And we may be able to gain a better grasp of that underlying reality by finding the commonalities, the areas of agreement, among different systems -- and possibly refining and improving those systems in the process, by resolving apparent ambiguities or discrepancies. The endgame in science has always been to construct the unified TOE (Theory Of Everything). Let the games begin!
Oh, I don't want to knock having fun. I just see these systems as languages or lenses that we've derived to exppress the truth, not as truth in and of themselves. In the case of astrology vs. enneagrems, one is derived from external time variables and the other is derived from self perception. I don't know what that means, but I do know that we can change the parts that we don't like, and thereby match up anything we like to suit our fancies.
Steve: I agree. If you want to seriously study French & study Russian then do so. But trying compare them seems silly. But fun is fun.
Yes, DragonWire, certainly -- if your purpose in studying French or Russian is to talk with French or Russian people. Linguistics, however, is precisely the comparative study of languages, for other purposes -- including the discovery of the deep structure of language -- the commonality that lies beneath the surface differences -- which reveals the essence of thought itself.
Ya know..Ok.. after some thinking.. You got a point. If you can find how they conect then each becomes more understood. I'm new so 1 is enough for now. This one just keeps getting bigger and bigger the more I look. then I keep trying to pick IT apart. Prob. much to the shagrine of the experts here.
Some times I can just feel the eyes roling..LOL
I wonder where this Astrology as Parlor Game thread will go ?
Though there can be many parallels discovered AND invented between any system of thought, the Enneagram in particular has a long history and legacy of application in real life circumstances, beyond its associations with other systems, to assure its integrity. In other words, of all the systems out there the Enneagram is probably the least theoretical in its originally intended purpose. It is also what makes this system so difficult to use accurately and so easy to abuse in the name of fun and games.
Personally, I don't care how it's refered to or used here (I am not Ennea-identified) however I would love to read more from those who have actually applied the Enneagram in their lives and who know enough about astrology to share some of your observations about their differences and overlays.
Anyone out there ???
Ahh, Sherpa....Thank you for weighing in. Let me assure you (as you probably already know), I do not regard astrology as a parlour game -- I understand, as well as you, the esoteric purpose of astrology in guiding the return to Source. What is less clear to me is what you might understand of the Enneagram....
And, yes, you are absolutely correct -- the Enneagram requires a far greater degree of self-awareness -- and ruthless honesty -- at the outset, if it is to be of any value. Your thoughts would be most appreciated...
Your humble colleague,
DragonWire, no eyes are rolling. The experience of each human experiment in consciousness is equally valid. I appreciate your willingness to express your thoughts. Thank you.
Well thanx but I am jumping all around this thing. A bit absessed for the last few weeks. I'll be moving soon & handing the computer to my 20 year old daughter in her new place. So I'll be busy putting into action what ever i come up w/ in the next few weeks. But I offten Have no idea if I'm on a correct track or walking off into la la land. LOL.. Oh well who knows. But thanx for the validation.
Oh ya and P.S.
I have said before I feel like a "Ditch digger" in a room full of world class structural engineers. And the ditch digger is exactly what I’m doing. Digging into my own “Dirt”
Ya think I might yield something out of this. I have no clue. Any feed back on my craziness is welcome.
I am writing more, that’s a new thing for me. I am beginning to type a bit faster. Word spell check is a lot of help too..LOL
DragonWire, the best structural engineers are the ones who have had some practical experience in the trenches. Keep it up. And if, in your digging, you find something that relates your Enneagram type to your astrological chart, I would love to hear about it.
Od -- Besides astrology, the Enneagram is one of six systems, or grids, that I use to shift my point of view (or assemblege point) for challenging existing beliefs and assumptions. Though I find all six systems useful, none provide for me any security or absolute answer for anything whatsoever (as that is not what I'm looking for). This process of ontological musical chairs also embraces the disconcerting experience of "no escape" or active contemplation of the crucifixion archetype (not Jesus but something more personal).
See, my kind of parlour games.
Though I feel good about offering some of my astrological views on this tribe, I refrain from sharing my more private (and valuable) processes related to the Enneagram, which deals with the exposure of narcissistic tendencies for avoiding relationship and skirting the internal void. Those secrets are probably best kept for those who share in that kind of self-work.
Now if I can only find a way to stop sounding like a big phat elitist esoteric jerk.
Sherpa, take heart -- I have never regarded you as "a big phat elitist esoteric jerk" (even if you sounded like one). Like you, I also use several systems, including astrology and the Enneagram -- which I have found most penetrating in forcing me to confront and deal with my basic fear and defense pattern. Nothing else has been so effective in allowing me to understand why I have the constant inclination to stage the world's most compelling dramas -- in my head, where they overlay and obstruct my direct participation in life. But as you say, this is probably not something for a public forum.
I am surprised, however, that so many people who are familiar with astrology are much less so with the Enneagram. And I would say that if, as a consequence of reading something here, a single person becomes seriously interested in exploring the Enneagram, this thread will have been worthwhile.
Thanks again for your comments.
So far, I have found the enneagram work I have undertaken to be more, um...directed? useful?, than astrology in uncovering the armor and defenses I have constructed and use so skillfully in maintaining the illusion of separation and alienation. And in beginning to try to get in my kishkes that all you bit players out there are actually the leads in your own stories and may have completely different world views, defenses, and conditioned responses that may seem utterly incomprehensible to me, but make perfect sense to you.
However, the system that has been absolutely hands down the most ruthless destroyer of the veil has been the Diamond Approach. Which I nearly did not investigate because I found the name too hoaky (sp?). If you haven't explored it, it's worth a look, IMO.
Thank you, dakinishir. Can you provide a link to whatever website you think is most informative about the Diamond Approach? Also, since you are familiar with both astrology and the Enneagram, perhaps you could comment on any correlations or synergies between the two systems that you have found from your experience?
Yes, the Helper could stalk. Consider -- they help people, but not from any... alturistic reason... they help people in order to get praise, in order to feel needed and special. The disintergrated 2, if I remember correctly, is an 8.... So, yes... the Helper stalking.
There's a dark side to each and every type.
I am a 6w5.
Libra cusp Scorp sun (6th, and at 28 degrees)
Gemini rising and moon (12th, moon cusps Taurus)
Neptune in Sag in the 7th
and A Virgo Venus (4th) and Cancer Mars (2nd) -- obviously both in their Fall.
Quentin, you are right about each Type having the potential to express itself across a continuum ranging from healthy to unhealthy -- and Type 2, The Helper, at the lower unhealthy level, can indeed become extremely jealous and possessive, even to the point of stalking the object of a romantic obsession in extreme cases. My earlier response did not take this into account -- thanks for catching it.
You seem well-informed on both the Enneagram and your astrological chart -- what features of your chart would you see as coinciding with your Enneagram Type?
I personally love the enneagram, along with things like the Myers-Brigg. I think it's so different from astrology that concrete parallels are hard to make, but taking the two together is interesting. After all, one is based on interpretations of placements you are born with, and transiting planets. The other is responsive to your answers on an intricate personality test.
I always come out as a 4, with usually a 3 wing, sometimes 5. It really fits for me--to the point where my mother once saw an article in the newspaper on ennegrams and immediately identified me as a 4, before I had even taken the test. I think looking at the 4 description sums me up in a more holistic way, as much as anything "sums you up," than astrology. Astrology is also not dependent on your answers, but on the stars--very different--and astrology is sometimes too complex and intertwined to see a holistic, whole picture of a chart. Who knows, maybe if I had the ability to see my chart energies in one holistic whole, it would be the same kind of thing as enneagram 4. I say take whatever works.
Od, I have lots of Scorpio, but 8 is the last thing I am; this is where trying to compare two systems becomes complicated. We are dealing with one number versus many signs, planets, houses, aspects, and ranges of expression within each sign. Also, someone equated Aries with 4 below. I think that 4 is too introverted, brooding, unsurely self-conscious, etc. to be cleanly equated to Aries. Almost resonates with Scorpio energy to me, and Cancer and Pisces, with a bit of Aquarius thrown in.
>>"which deals with the exposure of narcissistic tendencies for avoiding relationship and skirting the internal void. Those secrets are probably best kept for those who share in that kind of self-work."<<
Sherpa, you are keeping mystical secrets from us? Oh well, maybe we'll stumble upon them ourselves anyway. I'm sure I've been guilty of "narcissistic tendencies for avoiding relationships," though I see more self-protection than narcissism (but maybe that's narcissism), and I've surely "skirted the internal void," (though I see myself as liking to dive in)--related to enneagram 4? INFJ?Scorpio? genetics? environment? all of the above? whatever.
For any other 4 out there, there's a whole tribe devoted to you (just as you like, I'm sure).
Nancy, thank you for your interesting observations. Two questions for you, if you don't mind:
(1) Do you feel that what astrology tells you about yourself is (a) consistent with, or (b) contradictory to, what the enneagram tells you about yourself?
(2) If you feel that astrology and the enneagram are consistent in describing your character or personality, what features of your natal chart relate most to your enneagram type?
I do get a lot out of both astrology and the enneagram--as well as other things. I don't think they contradict eachother, I just think they are hard to correlate exactly.
The one-number, holistic description of enneagram is both good and bad; good because it is a more holistic view, and bad because it's a generalization. As a lot of people have mentioned, the types come in ranges. There are definitely things I read in descriptions of 4's that do not fit, though it generally does, which is a problem with generalizations. It also does not describe everything about a person, which is why the wings are helpful (though my wings sometimes change). The enneagram can also be frustrating because each number description is presented in a kind of negative manner, usually, implying that you need to "fix" yourself (not a good thing for 4's esp. to be told). We all need to grow, but I just wish I could find more empowering enneagram descriptions.
Alternately, astrology is good and bad because of it's complexity. It's good because not just one planet or sign sums a person up, but it can be difficult because charts are so complex that it's hard to get that holistic view of the person from their chart. You can't just say, "I'm a Scorpio Sun," or "Aries moon," or "Aquarius rising," etc., because they are parts of a complex whole. The problem is that the whole can be very hard to grasp; what would a Scorpio/ Aries/ Aquarius be like? Hard to combine it all in your head. Then take into account all the other planets, the houses, the aspects between everything, and the transiting planets--oh, don't forget asteroids and fixed stars. An astrological chart is just too complex and mind boggling to give the concise, holistic view of the enneagram. I feel like you have to write a book on one chart in order to explain it.
After that long-winded explanation, I guess what I'm saying is that they don't contradict eachother but they are just difficult to compare. If I tried I would say my 4 enneagram type correlates most with my Scorpio stellium (the 4 is intense emotion, introspection, brooding, analyzing, etc.), maybe also my Aquarius rising (the uniqueness), maybe my venus-neptune conjunction in the 10th house (the 4's sensitive, artistic tempermant). I think maybe my Aries moon connects to the 3 wing I often get. I find the two systems difficult to compare, but get a lot out of both.
Hope that answers your questions.
Od, I'm curious what your enneagram type is; do you feel it correlates to your astrological chart?
O.k., Od, I just scrolled WAY down and saw you declaring yourself a 4, evenly divided between a 3 and 5 wing; apparently, we have the same personality (as I seem to switch btw 3 and 5 wings--usually 3), but we certainly don't have the same astrological chart. See, the trouble with generalizations.
It's funny you see the 4 as correlating to your Aries. I definitely see the Cancer (and all water signs) connection to 4, but not Aries. Like I said below, I think Aries connects more to my 3 wing, and maybe the 7 enneagram type. I really, really see 4 as very Scorpio and water signish. I definitely also see Aquarius. Interesting.
interesting...im a 8 with a 7wing and im a scorpio sun, aries moon, sag rising.
Nancy, good analysis – what you say confirms my impression that Enneagram Type 4 correlates with some combination of water and fire. Remember, Type 4 is not only inwardly emotional, withdrawn, moody, and brooding (water), but also outwardly expressive, dramatic, temperamental, and impulsive (fire). You say you can see how Cancer (as well as Scorpio) would relate to Type 4, but not Aries, as I mentioned earlier – maybe that’s because I forgot to say that the Moon (ruler of Cancer) is in Aries in my chart, as it is in yours. We also both have Leo (the most dramatic sign) in some prominence – Leo is on the Descendant in your chart (the cusp of the 7th House of relationships), with Saturn in loose conjunction; I have a powerful conjunction of Venus and Pluto in Leo.
And you say we “certainly don’t have the same chart”? True, not the same, but with some significant similarities – beginning with both charts having twelve signs, twelve houses, ten planets, and the same number and kind of points, nodes, and asteroids! Kind of like what biologists say about the genetic structure of humans and chimpanzees (not that I’m making an inter-species comparison between us!): People and chimps have 99% of their DNA in common – which makes that last 1% really fascinating!
And yes, the enneagram type descriptions often seem “negative,” with good reason: The types represent different modes of individuation; that is, different ways of experiencing the fall into separation from Essence – which is an unavoidable element in the human condition, our psycho-spiritual “Original Sin,” as it were. As a tool for spiritual integration, the enneagram provides specific guidance to each type – an appropriate pathway -- for returning to Essence, at which point the personality is not extinguished, but rather raised to its highest form of expression.
For years I've been a fan and student of any system that helps you to get to know yourself better--whether it's Enneagram, Astrology, or any other system. I use both as well as Myers-Briggs to help me understand myself and others better. I find that they don't always seem to be "in sync" from one system to the other, but that the differences complement each other to give a fuller picture of identity.
One thing to remember about the Enneagram is that it is a way of defining *motivation* as opposed to behavior. I think it’s easy to see several signs in each type, but it is more accurate to look at the motivation/core issue within the energy of each sign and compare that to the Enneagram type. For instance, for a 4, I can see Scorpionic energy (depth), Leo energy (need to feel special/stand out), Taurus energy (aesthetically inclined), and Arian energy (need to be #1/a pioneer/known for something).
The system I use to correlate Enneagram types to Astrology is based on the planets, not the signs. The theory is that the planet associated with your Enneagram type is one of the least-integrated planets in your chart. Thus the issues you have in life stem from trying to figure out how to integrate it successfully. I heard about this here: andreayaya.typepad.com/enneag...x.html. It seems to provide a good working theory for understanding Enneatype in astrological terms. For example, 1s deal with issues of anger, a very Martial energy. Thus 1 is linked to Mars. Whereas if you were just looking at behavior, a 1 would probably look more Virgoan with his/her emphasis on perfection.
I’m a 4w5 (strong 5 wing). Venus is the planet connected with 4s. Venus in my chart is somewhat isolated, with just an out-of-sign trine to the Moon. In my life, Venus is not an energy I’m very comfortable with easily accessing. I favor the head over the heart (strong 5 wing/Mercury emphasis). I “check in” with my emotions/feelings after leading with what I consider the logical course of action. That isn’t always the best and most integrated use of Venus energy. That’s one way my enneatype correlates with my chart.
Hi, Angie -- We seem to have a Moon in Aries thing going here -- you're the third now. And I definitely see a correlation between Enneagram Type 8 and the archetype of Scorpio -- also, it seems like your 7 Wing would probably relate to Sagittarius rising. Thanks for checking in.
Trance Maiden, thanks for pointing out that different systems can be consistent by being complementary rather than duplicative. And I think we all agree that simple correspondences between astrology and the enneagram, if they exist, could well be over-generalized. Interesting notion that the types may correspond with planetary energies -- unfortunately, the link you posted seems to be inoperative. Could you check on that and try again?
Wow, scorpio correlating with enneagram 8; I just do not see it for me. I have a scorpio stellium, and I don't think I have an 8 bone in my body, or if I do it is a tiny little bone. Well, like the enneagram types, I think there is a wide range of expression in each of the astrological signs.
Nancy, please notice that I wrote "archetype of Scorpio" -- which means something like "Scorpio in principle" and not necessarily Sun in Scorpio, or any planets. "Your Mileage May Vary," as the saying goes. And in your case, I see that your Saturn in Leo squares Sun in Scorpio, as well as the planets you have there -- this aspect could limit the expression of those energies in Scorpio, making them seem in some respects like a "tiny little bone" in your body. Of course, you are right about the wide range of expression possible in each astrological sign -- and that certainly holds for Scorpio, which even has two symbols: the scorpion and the eagle.
The basis for the connection I see between Enneagram Type 8 and the archetype of Scorpio is their common trait of passionate intensity. As Riso comments, "Eights want to feel strong and autonomous; simply put, they want to feel solid and alive. Thus, the traditional passion of lust (their "Capital Sin") compels them to act in ways that stimulate feelings of aliveness, leading them to live intensely. Interactions with others must be intense, work must be intense, and play must be intense, as if Eights had to constantly push against life." Substitute "Scorpios" for "Eights" in this statement and you could drop it into any book on astrology.
I still say that this thread is like comparing colors and flavors . . . they both involve our senses, but, so what?
Ever try wine-tasting, Steve? The exercise is precisely to engage all the senses fully in evaluating and appreciating whatever it is the senses can wrap around....and this includes the pleasure of anticipating, from one sense, what another sense might say. To each his own, though -- I'm sure you have interests (fascinating to you) that leave some others wondering "so what." Don't let that stop you.
I am a 2 with a 3 wing.... very interesting since I am a Pisces Sun (2) with a Leo Rising (3) and a Cap Moon (3).
Ok, here's the link again: andreayaya.typepad.com/enneag...x.html. If that doesn't work when clicking on it, try it without the "enneagram_and_astrology" etc. last part.
Steve: I think one benefit of comparing different systems and investigating how they correlate is to help us get a better understanding of each system. Seeking patterns and similarities makes us really think about each type and understand it from other perspectives. Comparing "apples and oranges" helps us realize and appreciate the intricacies of each fruit--the taste, the texture, the color; or the fundamental needs, worldview, issues, etc. of each type better.
One more try then I give up: andreayaya.typepad.com/enneagram_planet/
Kim -- BINGO!
Got it that time, Trance Maiden. Thank you! This website will take a little time to investigate, but I look forward to talking about it with you later.
"One more try then I give up: andreayaya.typepad.com/enneagram_planet/"
This is getting closer, mathematically. First of all, we leave the zodiac out of the equation entirely. There are 12 signs and so far in this thread we've seen reasonable correlations made between perhaps a few of them. I have to admit that I'm not familiar enough with the eneagrams to even try to make any such associations.
Then you've got 10 planets and 9 eneagrams. It wouldn't be hard to simply eliminate the sun from consideration, and there you might begin to associate the eneagrams to the planets and the moon. But I don't see anything on your blog that even attempts to do this. Let's see at least a partial list of correspondences before we suggest that there is some association between the two systems.
sorry, now i found it:
so, what do you do with it?
I just discovered this thread and took the test. Surprise surprise, I am also a 4 with a 3 wing.
Od, compare our charts and see what you think!
Very valid points. However, do you at least see my correlation between the 4 enneagram and scorpio? I see what you mean that the 4 can also be outwardly intense (fire) but, to me, the brooding, the intensity, the depth, the over-sensitivity that makes the 4 feel like they are sensing depths that others don't really connects to Scorpio (and even my pluto in the 8th house) energy for me. Maybe not just one enneagram type correlates to a sign. Perhaps there are more 8 type Scorpio influenced people, who express the energy in a more forceful, outward way, and then there are more introverted, inwardly sensitive, Scorpio types like me.
Just saw your post, as I was replying. Very, very interesting! Hmmm, maybe it's a pluto in the 8th house, opposition moon, at the head of a kite thing then? That's the main similarity maenad and I have. It's all so complicated.
Maenad -- the first thing that jumps out at me from your chart is the conjunction of Venus and Pluto in Leo -- same as me! And you have your nadir (imum coeli) in Aries, so you have plenty of fire to fuel your Enneagram Type 4, Wing 3-- but where does the water come from? Probably from your Moon (ruler of Cancer) tied by opposition to the Venus/Pluto conjunction, also quincunx to Uranus in Cancer, on the cusp of the 8th House (which lends a Scorpionic coloration). How curious -- I see that you and Nancy both have a kite pattern in the same orientation (by house) in your charts.... Curiouser and curiouser....
Nancy, I'm sure that water (including Scorpio) and fire have something to do with Type 4 -- although I don't expect any quick and easy answers. It is the complexity of the correlations, however, that I find so intriguing -- and, fortunately, (perhaps due to a 5 Wing?) I have the patience to contemplate, disassemble and reassemble, the systems to find underlying patterns in their structure. And as for Scorpio, particularly in its more feminine manifestion, well... I have heard it described as the sign of "both the Whore and the Madonna." (No offense intended to any female Scorpio who doesn't relish either role.) I'm sure every sign embraces contraries of some kind.
i thought that virgo was the whore/madonna.
scorpio's more likely to be the pimp.
"scorpio's more likely to be the pimp."
Exactly, I thought I was the pimp this whole time!
In all seriousness, I don't relate to either the madonna or the whore, but I see what you are saying about polarities.
Ok I took it.. But alot of questions I could have answerd either way depending on the day.
I think if I took it a week from now a lot of this would change.
Type 1 Type 2 Type 3 Type 4 Type 5 Type 6 Type 7 Type 8 Type 9
4 6 6 6 4 4 3 0 3
oh, the virgo isn't very likely to see herself as either or both, but others will . . . usually as alternately both.
DragonWire, I'm not sure which test you may have taken -- there are a variety of tests out there. Try this one, if you like:
Remember, however, that even the best test can not absolutely determine your enneagram type -- it will only give you a high probability that your type is one of several. The only way to truly identify your type is to become familiar with all nine, and contemplate them until you recognize yourself in one type. This requires a good deal of soul-searching and self-awareness to get past any illusions or expectations or desires you may have (or want to fulfill for others) about yourself. You may find, like many people, that recognizing yourself in a type is something of a breakthrough experience, often shocking, as the puzzle pieces of your life suddenly fit together.... For a better understanding of the enneagram as a system, read this:
And for a brief description of each type, with links to longer descriptions, go here:
If you would like to read more thorough explanations of the nine types and their instinctual variants, I would recommend the book "The Wisdom of the Enneagram," by Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson.
Also, I've been told that although I have practically no water in my chart, I am nevertheless "scorpionic" because of all the 8th house stuff going on.
I'm also wondering how you experience that Venus and Pluto conjunction in Leo. Because mine is in the 8th house, it sometimes feels almost schizophrenic (I want drama! I want silence... I want to be seen! I want to be invisible...).
Yeah, Venus/Pluto -- I think you have been at the Venus Pluto People Tribe, Maenad.... That about says it all. Nuclear love, anyone? But back to the enneagram and astrology -- do you feel the aspects I mentioned relate to your enneagram type?
Ok Od this is what I got..
Type 4 - 12.3
Type 2 - 11.3
Type 1 - 8
Type 3 - 7.3
Type 6 - 6
Type 5 - 4.3
Wing 4w3 - 16
Wing 2w1 - 15.3
Wing 2w3 - 15
Wing 4w5 - 14.5
Wing 1w2 - 13.7
Wing 3w4 - 13.5
Wing 3w2 - 13
Wing 5w4 - 10.5
Wing 1w9 - 10.2
Wing 6w5 - 8.2
Wing 5w6 - 7.3
Wing 6w7 - 6.9
Doing a mumerology thing I got 4 on life path & what ever the second one was I can't remember.
Would be fun to get into this another time. After I get asto a little better understood.
It was fun Thanx.. I put those links in fav's..
I see myself as and relish both sides. Yay for being dynamic!
DragonWire, it looks like you may well be another Type 4, Wing 3 -- (what is it about this thread that attracts so many Type 4s?) -- and looking at the natal chart in your profile seems to confirm the water and fire theme with Type 4. You have Sun in Cancer, along with Mercury, Venus, and North Node -- all in square to Jupiter in Aries, and with Midheaven in Leo....oh yeah, and (Nancy, take note!) I see you have your Ascendent in Scorpio, conjunct Neptune. Definitely heavy emphasis here on water and fire.... Does the description of Type 4 resonate with you?
Leah! Go to your room!
(I'll be there shortly.) : )
Yes, it actually feels pretty accurate, although to tell the truth, I've never much thought about that Aries nadir or what it means in my chart.
Maenad, you may experience your Aries nadir as the inner fire that powers and sustains your Libra midheaven project to seek balance and harmony in your world.... This may relate to the tendency of Type 4s to "maintain their moods by cultivating an environment that supports the feelings they identify with. Thus they are often drawn to the aesthetic and exotic, surrounding themselves with beautiful objects, music, lighting, textures, and scents that both mirror and intensify their feelings. Atmosphere, style, and being 'tasteful' become of paramount importance." [Riso]
I was thinking about this. You need to "know thy self" well for this to work. There was a few things I turned and asked my daughter he opinion on.
That's a good thing to do, DragonWire -- turning to someone who knows you well, to see how consistent their view of you is with your own.... Fortunately, your Cancer stellium gives you great powers of memory to examine your earliest experiences, which relate to your individuation into an enneagram type. Remember...?
well. after getting a devorce w/ ex. I'm not joining her in the drink and smoke. Now very rarely.
My dreams and often mid day I get really vivid memories. The funny thing though. My child hood was a little of a dream in it's self. i remember dose-ing for the 1st time @16 .. I remember telling my friend that I was with, that it felt like I did when I was little, just more so.
Cancer stellium: memories... hummm 8th & 9th H... I think this might be more an emotional memory than anything tangable.
Thanks for the [Remember] I'll take that as a challange..
No, Od. You go to YOUR room and I'll be there shortly. ;P
In the spirit of Zane's recent humorous posts, here are the mottos of the nine enneagram types:
Type One, The Reformer: "Everyone is entitled to my own opinion."
Type Two, The Helper: "Some days you're the butterfly, other days you're the windshield."
Type Three, The Achiever: "If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried."
Type Four, The Individualist: "I'm ready for my closeup, Mr. DeMille."
Type Five, The Investigator: "Learning more and more about less and less until we know everything about nothing."
Type Six, The Loyalist: "Always be modest...and proud of it!"
Type Seven, The Enthusiast: "Overcome your temptation -- just give in!"
Type Eight, The Challenger: "How about never. Is never good for you?"
Type Nine, The Peacemaker: "Honk if you love peace and quiet."
Yes, I like to use music and color in particular. I don't have artistic gifts myself, but I recognize art and beauty when I see it, and I like to surround myself with it and with the people that create it. And I do use music as a muse for writing.
I LOVE it!!!
Everyone has artistic gifts, it's just a matter of recognizing it and validating it within yourself.
Maenad, I like to think everyone has artisitic gifts, it's just a matter of recognizing it and validating it within oneself..but then again...I came out "the reformer" on the Ennegram...so maybe that's just what I think..ha.
Darn it and it posted twice...now it really makes me sound like The Reformer...ha ha ha.
Sorry I have been away from this post!!!
My type is Phobic 6. I think my Libra cusp Scorp sun in the sixth conjunct Uranus in Scorp really signals it. Also, my phobic nature seems reflected in my 12th house Gemini moon.
I was into Enneagram for many years before Astrology grabbed me. You can talk to more people about Astrology and I see both a spiritual... most people think about the 9 Types much too narrowly and then create themselves accordingly. But no one is ever just "something" -- like in Astrology, there are shades and differences and no two are alike.
Take my type, 6. We come in two different flavors: Phobic and Counterphobic -- reactions to fear. However, there are people who consider themselves 6 who are really 1's or 8's because there's nothing as...
When you are born, there's no changing that or creating it or allowing yourself to be swayed by your own ego needs. If you read something that might seem a little too true or that you don't like, well, you can say you are something else and generally no one will challenge you.
I studied directional theory and another Enneagram theory that looked at the intentionality of each type (towards, away, neutral -- there was a better word for that last).
THe two systems ARE actually very different. Enneagram comes to us from the mystical Sufi sect. It's just, Sherpa, people can lie to themselves. They don't have to be honest with themselves about who they are with Enneagram, but with Astrology, who you are is right there... whatever that eally means.
Wow, Quentin, thank you for this post about the enneagram. We share many similarities. First, I studied the enneagram from the ancient Sufi tradition at the holistic school I went to before I even opened an astrology text. Second, I'm a 6, a counter phobic/phobic six (depends on the day ;-), and I'm glad to meet another 6. And third I resonate with your description of the enneagram.
I want to add that we used the birth number, day + month + year to determine which of the nine energies we were working with rather than fill out a questionnaire that relys on the consciousness of the responder. So far it's worked for me.
We also use the concepts of intentionality of each type. 2, 3, 4 has to do with desire and sadness, perception is through the emotions; 5, 6, 7 core emotion is fear, perception is through the mind, ...and 8,9,1 core emotion is anger, perception is through the body; towards, away or neutral (we use that word.) We also learned that each number has corresponding stress styles. When 6 is stressed positively, they'll do 3 and when negatively stressed, they do 9, eg. The DSMV designations were used at my school, not to pigeonhole a disorder, but to understand the filter. It's like a portal to awareness. 6 perceives through fear of the mind, belief systems about safety and so is phobic. In our studies, 6 unresolved (unconscious) is contentious, but resolved (conscious, on the dharma path) creates harmony. We use a correlation with the Tarot, so we look to the Lovers (6) for a clue about the psychic and spiritual work being asked of the individual. Interestingly, I find support for this work in my North node in Libra in the 6th house. Doesn't that sound alot like Lovers work? Aries south node to Libra north node seems alot like Devil to Lovers to me :-)
A friend who's really suffering with the power struggle, power over thing of the 8, has Pluto in the 10th house. I always find some correlation. Another 2 friend has Saturn in Ares in the 2nd and whole slew of stuff in the 7th in Libra. To me the enneagram describes a broad, but core energy asking to be resolved while the birth chart says how it's possible to do it specifically.
p, l, blessings, Kali
I love that I found this thread...a little late, which is sad. I actually woke up from a dream one night and was like "Hey, does astrology correlate with the Enneagram in any way?", i.e. was there any research or discussion on such a thing? I can definitely see this being true, not necessarily in a "comparing sights to sounds" sort of way as someone else brought up, but in a classification manner (most Sags have the tendencies to be 7s, etc.). After waking up, I google'd it. Because that's how I roll.
Very interesting stuff.
I found a website that I haven't adequately checked out in order to fully recommend, but I'll throw it out there anyway.
The creator calls the combination of the Enneagram and Astrology "Enneastrology," and I'm hardly calling this a science/quality belief system or giving it any validity as of yet, but it is a fairly interesting idea. I also like how this woman encourages further study on the subject. If I were in any position to do so, I know that I would definitely look into it (and the implications of this comparison to other personality theories).
Anyways, that's that. Take it as you will...if anyone even looks at this thread over a year after it was written...
There was already thorough discussion AND the posting of that website...I must of accidentally scrolled over that middle section when reading the thread.
Thats funny and fitting I guess. I am a 3 wing 4 and am Leo Asc (3), Capricorn Sun (3), and Scorpio Moon (4).
I'm a 5 wing 6 with a 9 coming in a close second.
It kind of fits seeing as how I'm a Cancer sun, Taurus Moon and Taurus Ascendent. I really do have alot of cancer qualities in me.
I ran into this helpful diagram a while ago & tucked it away..... even though I'm not big into the enneagram stuff now, I may be at sometime & I'm always interested in the correlations/bridges between things
....speaking of the bridges/correllations between things..... I recently found this diagram
that correlates the kabbalistic tree of life, astrological symbols & the sacred geometry flower of life, which I recently found out is an expansion on the vesica pisces
oh, look! theres that enneagram shape in there too
what comes around, goes around
ps ~ Pisces is the "madonna/whore"..... Virgo is the "sacred whore" an archetype sadly lacking in our current mainstream culture & IMO a big reason that Virgos are so often mis-identified as "frigid"