I have an older sister who is a pathological liar (always has been). We have never been close (mostly b/c of our 12-yr age gap), and I have always had a hard time believing anything that comes out of her mouth. Her son has inherited this trait also (as well as drug addictions), and again, I have a hard time believing him. I consider myself to be an honest person, maybe too honest sometimes, and I have an abhorrence for deceit.
Do any of you have any experiences with liars, and do you think there are astrological tendencies that contribute to making someone a compulsive liar, or deceitful in other ways (cheaters, manipulators, etc.)? I'm not talking exaggeration or boasting (I know fire signs esp. can be guilty of this); I'm talking about lying to someone's face. I have heard that Mercury-Neptune squares can be prone to lying, but while my nephew has this aspect, my sister does not. She has a Gemini Sun square Pluto/Uranus, though, which is something I wonder about most (she is very fake – puts on acts/hides her true self).
Often Malefics planets affecting the 2nd house/ruler and/or the 2nd house ruler (or mercury) in houses 6, 8 or 12 and/or joined the rulers of 6, 8 or 12 or NNode, Mars, Saturn. When many of these factors start to line up you see trouble.
Such as 2nd house ruler in the 8th and Mercury joined Mars aspected by NNode.. Stuff like that.
Look for the things that show speech, then look for the things that harm.
The specifics show WHY they are lying so we can take it beyond judgment and blame and actually try to understand the person.
This is a good instance where people often say.. "I think lying is a HUMAN thing and not necessarily shown by astrology", because it is not easy to find and many things can show it.
Often there are a lot of troubles with the 2nd house.. the 6th house ruler, Mars, Saturn or the NNode in the 2nd is a flag for me.. Unless they RULE the second. Then it gives a lot of credibility and honesty.
I know I'm going off the astrology thing here, but do keep in mind that children learn habits from their parents. Your nephew may simply feel that what he does is perfectly acceptable because he was raised in such an environment and it might not be something that is deeply ingrained in him.
SecSip - that's true, but I don't think we always take after our parents. I know I don't. And my nephew's sister may have her problems, but she doesn't lie compulsively like that either. I mean the conversations with him and his mom get downright exhausting because the lies just pile up.
It all depends on his age whether he's a lump of cookie dough to well baked cookie (mentally and developmentally speaking). And yes we all don't take after our parents but many do look up to them and sometimes it's only during the developmental period of our lives. Some deplore the behavior of their parents so much that they instantly choose an opposite path right away.
He's well baked: 26 years old, and he doesn't look up to his mom at all.
I didn't bake till later, but you're probably right. LOL
why not post a chart / give birth detais.
I used to be a major liar, and still have the ability..rustier, but it's there, in case of emergency. lol I still say little white lies, like "yes, orange looks good on you", or "I didn't call you back right away because I was in the shower" etc...to avoid hurting people's feelings or staying out of trouble. But I wouldn't lie about serious issues, like..money, health, news etc. I generally wouldn't lie about things that I feel are really important to another person.
I think in my case, it was plain easy to see why I would be a major liar-first of all, because of my chart, second-and I would say, most importantly-because of my early childhood conditions.
If I'd have to make a list of chart influences, I would definitely list Neptune in there..a strong Neptune in a chart makes a great "actor", always, and they're most likely to lie because-no 1.they live and breathe the ideal of "all is relative", which implies attitudes like "mi casa es su casa", or "you are me like we are he and we are all together"-or however those beatles' "strawberry fields forever" lyrics went. So under this ideal, time and places no longer exist, but vary and get stretched inside the mind, and being one hour late doesn't matter, because, really, what's one hour in the infinity of space and time? why hurry, when you could die any second? I was just contemplating the movements of the clouds..can you blame me for being in awe of the beauty of nature? etc etc. you get the idea.
And the no2. reason is the empathy and desire to keep things smooth with people which is related to the live and let live attitude of neptunians. they hate wasting time on "trivial" matters like being on time, fitting into a tight schedule, meeting a deadline, gaining respect of other's selfish inflated egos, showing respect to their same selfish over-inflated egos etc, etc.. so they say stuff just to "slip out", to put it in "fish language".
Then, I would also list Venus, Mercury, and Jupiter in there..but you have to really analyze each individual chart to get the real picture.
Like I was saying, in my chart, it's like this:Sun conjunct Venus in Pisces, on the DC. Sun also makes a 7 degree orb trine to Pluto and is parallel Pluto.
This shows that I am totally motivated by the more intuitive, elusive energies and experiences in life, as well as romantic love. I'm driven to find God, and experience as many emotions as possible, on the way to god. hate routine and confinement, and words like "rule", "must", "responsibility", or even "integrity" are, well, just words to me.
On top of that, you need to add the strong desire to keep things in balance and keep harmonious relations, that, ideally, would show me in a good light. (Sun-Venus on the DC)
And all of this because I have a strong desire to have power and influence.(the Sun-Pluto connections)
Of course, these elements alone are not decisive in determining my tendency and ability to dissimulate. If I had a Moon-Mars conjunction in Aries, for instance, I may have used these abilities to a much lesser extent.
BUT since I have Moon-Jupiter conjunct in 0 degree Gemini-the most eager to be Gemini of all the Gemini degrees-lol-and squaring Mercury in Pisces conjunct North Node, it is obvious I have the full "equipment" to be a professional liar.
Another major + on the liar scheme is Lilith in Libra in the 1st house-I've been called a major manipulator by those around me from an early age, because I just HAD to always get my way. And Libra is a major sweet-talker.If Sun in Libra is sometimes called "iron fist in the velvet glove", Lilith in Libra would be called "iron tongue in a velvet glove". LOL
The things that hold me back from being a pathological liar, however, are Mars and Pluto. Mars conjoins Moon and Jupiter, in the 9th house, and is in Gemini, giving my mind a touch of "in your face" expression and reactions.
Mars is also parallel my MC, the highest point of "what I really care about" in a chart, so, naturally I like to keep things simple and..rather blunt, overall, in my public expression. Jupiter is also parallel my MC-same as with Mars, enforces the need for clarity and "telling it as it is"
Then, there's Pluto in my 3rd, tightly trine Venus , which makes me admire loyalty and "togetherness" of the mind and social expression.
Saturn almost exactly conjunct Neptune works both ways-on the one hand, I think it adds to my tendency to use lies to keep things under control, and on the other hand, it makes me control any tendency to add more "colors" than necessary to my expression. LOL
Apart from all this, though, I think upbringing is very important. I feel that I used to do a lot of lying because I had a really low self-esteem level. For one, I felt like I was so "odd" that nobody would accept the real me, so I would have to make up things to get attention, and then, because I was put down by those in my immediate family and felt like I was useless and more of a burden than anything else, I would react by lying on a constant basis, simply out of revenge or to keep myself on an even keel.
I feel like this is especially true for Pisces-or people with strong neptune-who never had a strong sense of family, or "belonging", or just never felt supported emotionally: they just lie and act like low-lives because they sense that's exactly what other people expect from them.
I despise liars. Blah.
I'm not sure if it has alot to do with astrology because I've known some major liars. One a Cancer, Libra, Virgo and a Scorp.
All except for Libra (for the most part) were liars to one up you. Everything they had was better or their life was more wonderful... blah blah blah. They spun lies to make people envy them and to get attention. It's just YUCK to me.
The Libra was a "keep the peace" liar although he did beef himself up to appear more desirable alot too.
Here's what I think of keep the peace liars. The intention is good but it does more BAD then good. When I ask for an opinion I want the honest truth even if it hurts. I wouldn't have bothered asking if I'm not going to get the truth. There is no point.
Liars are insecure people who have to puff themselves because they don't feel that they are enough. How sad. I don't lead a spectacular life but it's an HONEST life and I'm doing the best I can. I'm happy. So why lie?
Sorry this topic grinds on my nerves. I despise liars.
From what I have seen the tendency comes from very early childhood, the years beginning at around kindergarten or 1st grade, ages 5 through 7. I think that tends to be the time where a child's mental, verbal, and social skills have grown enough to present them with their first exposure to the social world of peers without the immediate protective validation of their worth and their experience of their self from their parents available.
If for some reason they cannot communicate in an open and natural way with a group of peers they find comfortable at that time they deduce, without good reason, that there is something about the way they are that needs to be hidden from all of their peers. The lying is the method of hiding it. I think pathological and compulsive lying traces back to a developmental glitch in basic socialization.
I think the same astrological qualities that would be involved in the development of a liar would be the same that would express in successful socialization, the difference being with how comfortable the person is with the qualities of their self the chart can symbolize.
I would think this sort of character flaw would be evident in a chart, especially when it is as prevalent in a personality as it is in my sister's. But I agree that you have to take the whole chart into consideration. I just wondered if any of you had experience with liars, and if you attributed it to any particular placement or aspect in that individual's chart. I think my sister's Gemini influences are of the negative side, mostly because of her relationship with our father (a strong Gemini), and that contributes to the hard Gemini Sun-Pluto deceptive nature. My nephew does seem to have inherited the same Gemini qualities, and even has a Gemini Moon (his mother). So that coupled with his Mercury-Neptune square is probably one of the main reasons he lies.
I have heard that Saturn in positive aspect to Mercury might make someone more honest. I have the trine, and am very honest, but, if anything, I might withhold information at times (if I feel it is inappropriate to say something). My sister has a square, and I think this further blocks positive communication on her part due to some sort of fear that she will say something that will make her look bad, etc.
Here's a blog I ran across on Mercury and lies:
I agree that Mercury in aspect to Mars creates a weapon w/ words. I have a conjunction, and always know the right thing to say to hurt people, esp. to those close to me.
Once again I can't stress the importance Mercury has in Subjects like this. Lying can be broken down into many parts though. One of them can be the Mind(Mercury) where we form the lies and have conscious control over how and when we intend to lie. Another is our emotions(Moon) and why we "feel" we need to lie. Another is having the energy to lie so Mars would play a part for me.Jupiter represents honesty as well as Venus in a sense as it relates to how we deal with others and taken in their negative expression could represent a liar especially if in bad aspect to Mercury. Sometimes the lying is done as a defense mechanism and that is when we go back to the Moon(automatic responses). Sometimes people put up a front and my realize this and simply lie on purpose and when that happens it is best to look at the Ascendant sign and see how it is aspect-ed.There are so many outside influences as to why a person feels the need to lie though and that should be taken into consideration also. Looking to what the 3rd house ruler is doing may give clues as to the surrounding situations in that persons environment as well as clues to that person's childhood situations as Aria has stated(3rd house would show schooling up until college).Some other places to look may be the 2nd house as it shows our self-worth and how we may feel about ourselves and what we have as well as how we feel about the talents we may or may not have.Neptune in a bad aspect to Mercury.... Hmm.... If anything Neptune would represent confusion and hysteria in it's bad aspect as well as hypersensitivity. When connected to Mercury depending on how badly it is aspect-ed we may end up seeing someone who is simply convinced of what they believe in their own mind and they may truly and honestly believe in the lies they may have "seen". They are caught up in some state of confusion and of course where Neptune and Mercury are located(which houses) would help to see where this plays out.I feel that lying is very unique for each individual as it may not be as extreme for others as some. Sometimes people don't lie.Sometimes people are just dramatic but, it is about perspective and how lying affects you personally with the individual you are dealing with so a Synastry chart would be something to think about. One last point I feel that the ruler of the Third house and what that planet aspects and the sign of it will dictate Very much to how someone communicates to their environment. I have Leo on the Third house cusp and many times(in certain places) I have been dubbed as a Leo and The people who believe I am a Leo are often very very shocked that I am not one. In my mind I am left thinking though.." The loudest Rawr comes from the Leo who actually uses his Voice(3rd house of communication)" Looks like I have the loudest Rawwr when it comes down to the Leos! :P
Black and White or every shade between? If you are just going by stereotype sign tendencies?
People most likely by their set tendencies to lie to smooth social interaction (peacekeepers): Libra, Pisces, Cancer,
To avoid consequence: Leo, Aquarius, Sag, Gemini, Taurus
To have gain or reputation: Aries, Capricorn, Virgo, Leo, Gemini
For their own motivations: Gemini (how many are used car salesmen of the world?),Scorpio (not as likley to lie, simply secretive and misleading if pressured for answer), Virgo
But aspects can make a inclination into a permanent flaw.
Most likely to lie for any reason in order (which may be changed by others with different experience) : Gemini, Aries, Libra, Cancer, Pisces, Leo, Aquarius, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Taurus, Virgo, Scorpio
(notice how many the last signs are those who are brutally honest and often considered tactless? But all are able to lie-it is motivation that makes how often)
And the better liars of each sort seem to be the Cardinal signs
This is a great point you made here about the Liars of the Zodiac.I am a Gemini myself and I have had this thing about not liking people who lie and I try much to stay away from them,but I feel that house placements influence many things.and secondly I guess my sun is aspect-ed well enough along with my Mercury. I feel that the Sun represents the core of who the person is and may not show or totally influence how the person communicates. It may show for instance why the person may initiate communication and how much of it but it doesn't show Per-Se the actual lying(action verb and a type of communication so this goes to the 3rd house, the 3rd house cusp and Mercury) itself.
Lying is a very complex subject matter when bringing Astrology into play because Astrology really feels to me as a sort of Psychology and it would take some understanding of the Human Psyche to full assess lying and all of it's components.
Instead of looking for aspects in the chart which may definitively show lying and looking to the qualities and the Sun signs I feel that it would be better to look to Why a person may lie based on the Birth Chart. Maybe a person may lie to Change a circumstance which in that case would call us to look to Pluto or maybe a person lies simply for their own personal reasons to escape any type of social restrictions and in that case we would look to Uranus. Maybe a person enjoys lying and may like to see the affect it has on others in their environment and for that I would look to the 5th house and the cusp ruler as well as Venus based on the principles of what we love(some people may love lying for the fun of it).
Lying is just a very complex thing. But we are bringing up very good points that may lead to a compilation of the Astrology of Lying.
I find several of the things you have said interesting, Dionysus, especially the emphasis you give to the detailed complexities that can be involved in the way a person lies and the ways they use their lies.
I want to try to add to what you've said but the weather here is tearing my sinuses apart, too much of a distraction. Perhaps later if the thread is still around.
Thank you and Same here!:) Aww sinuses suck, You should try boiling some water and then getting a towel and lean your head over the hot water placed on a table with something under the large bowl or pot you may have the Boiled water in and cover your head with the towel encompassing the Bowl and your head together thus giving you a Mini Sauna treatment. It will allow some germs to pass through as well as opening up the nasal passages in your nose. I have done it lots of times! It also will make you sweat and clean out your pores so you can splash some cold water over your face after you finish and have some clean and opened pores second to open nasal passages! :D
to be honest i am too lazy to be a liar... i prefer omission of information before story telling. my experience is life is complex enough without having to keep stories straight. i try to live by & up to my own standards, afterall all i have to live with myself...lol...
and lying to see if you can get away with it, or due to boredom, or power issues is sad :-(
doesnt fall into the stereotypes so easily...lol...
Lol! I feel that it was funny you mentioned the word lazy because the first thing tha jumped into my mind was Venus! I directly see where that Comes from now with the Libra ascendant. Oh And I agree with Lying being sad in each case you stated. There are some positive expressions to lying though and we can't just bypass that. Some people lie to protect their lives or to not hurt others feelings. I have seen cases where small white lies seem to be okay with some people. I feel that these factors can all show up in the chart but, I still feel that looking for why a person may lie is important before looking for the actual lying in the birth chart.
Thank you for the advice, Dionysus :+) It is to do with allergies, plants freak out when the weather changes sharply.
I was thinking about this subject a little more and I've realized I don't want to understand liars.
I only feel pity, wounds, no interest, regret, and lost energy when all is said and done in having known them.
I do believe what you suggest, that there can be an Astrology of Lying, but, to me, it's the liars who should own it.
Wow I agree so much and I feel that I am done trying to figure them out too!:D This felt like a Good idea but,I feel that my energy can go into something more positive!:D Thanks for being Cool Aria! You are in fact very cool!
"I was thinking about this subject a little more and I've realized I don't want to understand liars. "
I kind of think that understanding paves the way for forgiveness. If we don't understand why others do something like this, then we may find it more difficult to forgive them, and considering how we ALL lie from time to time, it is probable that were we to cultivate an attitude of understanding for others, they too would cultivate that understanding in return. if its not lying, its something else. Considering nobody is perfect, I see no reason why any of us should consider that the 'sins' of others are so terrible that we can't at least try to understand them, and in time, forgive them. Perhaps we would hope that others would do this for us as well.
Just my thoughts
Paul, I think that is the set up though. When I read your words there and try to put myself in that place what I see is a situation where people who behave in a hurtful way are granted a free pass into my life and concerns merely because they have behaved hurtfully. But if I am emotionally honest with myself I know I do not want them in my life nor my concern because I know it hurts me. Why live with extraneous hurt? Why let pity for hurtful people rule anything about the conditions of my short life? I see it as a dangerous sympathy for abusers that comes from having suffered an abuser. I see it as a reflexive compulsion stemming from that, and I see that almost everybody at some time confuses it with an interest in the notion of "forgiveness".
Yeah its certainly a tough situation, and I guess you have to do what you have to do. I'm just offering another 'angle' on it.
For my part, I think there is a huge difference in understanding and forgiving someone and then letting them 'back into your life'. There is a difference, for me at least, between forgiveness and forgetfulness. If somebody has lied to me consistently I will think to myself 'they are not trustworthy', and I won't divule information to them or trust them for what they say, but I will try to understand WHY they are lying, what is to be gained, what is their 'motive' for it and will try to bear this mind in my dealings with that person. Certainly lying to me is easily forgiven. I don't hold a grudge too easy. If however, lying turns to betrayal, then I think its a different issue. Whilst you can still forgive the person for doing so, its normally wisest to cut off connections with that person.
So when I say forgiveness I do not mean to imply being FRIENDS with that person. You can still break connections with them so that they no longer interfere in your life, but you can still attempt to understand them and forgive them. In fact, normally when you understand someone, forgiveness isn't too far away.
"Why let pity for hurtful people rule anything about the conditions of my short life?"
Not pity, forgiveness. Forgiveness is such a powerful 'cleanser'. Holding onto grudges can be like a poison to the soul. Understanding breeds empathy and empathy breeds forgiveness. You might go one step further and suggest that these things, in turn, breed wisdom, but that is just a personal opinion of mine. Either way forgiving people, and yourself for 'believing' the lie etc can be hugely therapeutic.
Yeah, I guess there is need of context here. I'm really candid, far more so than most people are comfortable or have the nature to be. It is a constant in life to never expect to meet too many people like myself in that way and a lot of things that can be called lying in one way or another can simply be an absence of candor. That's forgettable, I will usually just play along, see it as their nature or style, that's no problem, I certainly prefer people the way they are as long as they are harmless.
It is betrayal I am referring to in most of my feelings about pathological liars. There are psychological tactics that deceptive or manipulative people use that in affect have the power to kill. Humans are far more emotionally based in their functioning than it seems most people care to notice since it means a willingness to admit the existence and experience of pain. What gets so dangerous is that people who deceive and manipulate in the most hurtful of ways do not have that kind of sensitivity for their self and their own pain and the pain or potential pain of others' exists to them as if a perverse concept of some kind, not as a mortal and corporeal reality.
Forgiveness, this thread would probably have to go on and on before we understood each other's precise use of the word, but I can say, for me, the priority is that ALL the pain and anger that exists in the body and mind after the experience be felt, that none of it be neglected, because otherwise it lives on in the body like an intruder, as the violence of the original intruder would have intended it to. It is not about grudges. It is the organic process of a wound allowed to heal through not being denied. I think most people do not like that kind of honesty with their self, have not learned the value of it, and they often look at someone who has and from their perspective of fear at their own pain it appears as if it is a grudge, but it is not. A grudge is neglectful of pain. Emotional honesty is not.
I like your analogy of pain.
As you say, we'd risk going through a whole thread before understanding each other's notion of forgiveness and even then we may not reach it! For me, forgiveness isn't an active 'choice' that is made, it is something that occurrs or arises. Of course we don't complicate these understandings in every day interaction and when I might say "ok, well I forgive you", what I might really mean is "ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and move on", but 'true' forgiveness would just occur, it is like the neutralisation of the original hurt by means of empathy and understanding. It is not the denial of pain, which is of course an entirely different thing and like you say is quite harmful to the psyche, it is more like your own pain is nullified by certain realisations.
However for me, the notion of 'pain' in regards either lying or even betrayal breaks down when we juxtapose it against physical injury. So although a good metaphor, it is a limited one. So when you say phrases like "...have the power to kill...corporeal reality...that exists in the body and mind..." etc., it connotates the notion that being lied to or betrayed leads to an emotional pain that has the same effects as physical pain, and in this I would have to disagree. If I cut you on the arm, it IS going to take time for that to fully heal and may leave a scar. There is nothing you can do about that, you can dress and clean the wound and so on, but it IS going to bleed and it IS going to take time to heal. No way around it.
That isn't true of lies however. If you lie to me that does not necessarily equate with a pain that WILL take time to heal. What if, for example, I just don't care that you lied, that your opinion means nothing to me. That you lied would be entirely inconsequential to me. So what I'm trying to point out is that, in contrast to actual phsycial injury, an emotional 'injury' is entirely dependant upon the concsciousnes and mindset of the individual, which may of course LEAD to phsyical pain/injury, but is not the direct stimulus for that pain. Put again, if you lie to me, the pain/injury that may or may not arise in me is entirely dependant upon freewill, concsiousness, understanding, empathy etc. UNLIKE with physical pain. The fear here is that if we take the pain analogy too literally, then we deny ourselves the chance to 'just get over it', we may make more of it than we need to.
For the most part if someone lied to me, depending on who they were and my emotional connection to that person, the emotional pain that arises would be entirely different for each person. If someone stabbed me in the leg, the pain would be the same regardless of who was holding the knife. It is true that if you feel hurt or slighted then one avenue is to work through the pain, let it run its course. It is certainly true that it shoudln't be denied. What isn't true, is that because someone has lied to you that you WILL feel hurt or slighted. Because of that, you have an enormous amount of control over your reactions to that lie.
"A grudge is neglectful of pain. Emotional honesty is not. "
A grudge is, for me, the resonating with the personal pain felt, above a resonating with empathy and understanding of what caused that pain to ACTUALLY arise inside the mind and for the person who 'caused' that pain to occur originally.
Forgiveness was discussed in another thread not too long ago. I might bump it up.
I agree with everything in your first paragraph, Paul, up until
"it is more like your own pain is nullified by certain realisations."
I do not think that anything in the reality of a human being occurs independent of the physical body, and, thereby, all pain, emotional pain, psychological pain, mental pain, whatever words anyone would want to refer to as notions of different kinds of pains, is physical pain.
Here's an example. Part of the sinus problem I was experiencing last night was in fact also a physical processing of very old pain of having dealt far too closely with a pathological liar, triggered, surely, from reading this thread. The headache was identical to a headache I experienced near two decades while trying to understand that person, and it was identical to headaches and sinus problems I had on a daily basis as a child while trying to understand my father, a condition that was so severe my nose would bleed for hours almost daily.
No one is ever going to be able to tell me that there is some kind of difference between an emotional and physical kind of pain. No one is ever going to be able to tell me deceptions and other kinds of psychological violence are not capable of damaging the body.
It can literally hurt my head to try to figure out a deceptive person if I care for them greatly, as a more mild example.
Have you never felt a pain like that?
"Because of that, you have an enormous amount of control over your reactions to that lie."
Another important thing i forgot to mention, when dealing with deceivers or liars one doesn't always know one is being lied to. When you don't know you're being lied to or deceived, when you know no better than to take lies and deceptions as something else, like in a case where someone sadistically enjoys deception as if it were an art or sport and part of their objective is that much passion to remain undetected as deceitful, or, more often, the deeper motive, to not be detected as cruel, there is nothing you can do until you realize the lie. And everything you have acted on in the time it takes to realize you have been reacting to deception as if it were real. That is serious damge. Serious, serious damage.
"Here's an example. Part of the sinus problem I was experiencing last night was in fact also a physical processing of very old pain.."
Oh certainly I believe in psychosomatic illness or pains, but what I'm suggesting is that not all lies/slights/betrayals HAS to be experienced physically. Depending on our viewpoint of the person for example, we might feel nothing whatsoever. Its not being repressed, its just that you don't really care about what the other person says - they may be a stranger or something.
Now there may be other things going on here than simply 'lying', as you've brought up childhood reflection with your father. its entirely plausible that issues pertaining to lies are actually issues pertaining to your father than have not been 'addressed' or understood properly. It's much more difficult to forgive things that happened when you're a child, they seem to have more impact.
"No one is ever going to be able to tell me that there is some kind of difference between an emotional and physical kind of pain. No one is ever going to be able to tell me deceptions and other kinds of psychological violence are not capable of damaging the body. "
Its not that I mean to upset your understandings of pain. I'm not trying to do that, clearly all pain, regardless of the source, is experienced via the nervous system and brain. I just meant that certain things, like a broken bone, WILL, regardless of who broke the bone, be painful. But lies will not necessarily be painful, it is dependant upon the person doing the lying and the person being lied to.
"Have you never felt a pain like that? "
I don't think I have. I'm not really sure, from you're describing, I'd have to say no. I have felt the 'physical' pain that arises from emotional pain, but it is always as a result of my own 'needs' and desires and so on and lack of understanding and empathy, not just for the other person, but for myself too. I actually think it takes more courage to accept that, but perhaps its different for everyone. This is just my understanding and experience of it.
"where someone sadistically enjoys deception as if it were an art or sport and part of their objective"
I guess you're talking about a huge extreme here. i don't think I know anybody who sadistically enjoys deception like it were an art. I think most people lie out of fear, ignorance, a quest for power, or vengeance.
Certainly there have, for example, been lies on this tribe that have irritated me and have caused much damage to people's feelings and the same is true in real life. There are always people who lie, but for the most part, it is because of one of those four reasons I think.
"Now there may be other things going on here than simply 'lying', as you've brought up childhood reflection with your father. its entirely plausible that issues pertaining to lies are actually issues pertaining to your father than have not been 'addressed' or understood properly. It's much more difficult to forgive things that happened when you're a child, they seem to have more impact."
Thing is, Paul, what that can show is I bet if there were any way to sit down with extensive record of people who have tolerated the presence of such a person so close to them in their later life, I bet you in every case we would find a childhood story like mine in some way. There's just no other way a person could be prone to trusting anyone like that enough to be able to convince their self they can tolerate them that closely no matter how wrong it all feels somehow.
"Its not that I mean to upset your understandings of pain. I'm not trying to do that, clearly all pain, regardless of the source, is experienced via the nervous system and brain. I just meant that certain things, like a broken bone, WILL, regardless of who broke the bone, be painful. But lies will not necessarily be painful, it is dependant upon the person doing the lying and the person being lied to."
Ok, I agree with that.
"I don't think I have. I'm not really sure, from you're describing, I'd have to say no. I have felt the 'physical' pain that arises from emotional pain, but it is always as a result of my own 'needs' and desires and so on and lack of understanding and empathy, not just for the other person, but for myself too. I actually think it takes more courage to accept that, but perhaps its different for everyone. This is just my understanding and experience of it."
I don't disagree with most of what you describe there, I think most of what you describe is a part of how healing from interpersonal situations works itself out in the "body-mind", but, in the words, I sense a tinge of advocating something more like self-blame in reaction to hurtful behavior rather than merely self-awareness. I think there can be an issue of "forgetting" being to go on from whatever was done with an openness to notions like hurtful people as unfortunate angels who bring enlightenment through the pain they subject people to and cr*p like that so as to keep everybody feeling comfortable at the expense of the true nature of the fact of violence coming to light and the self being liberated into healing that much further of the wound and becoming that much more bright, discerning, sensitive really, about people and relations in the future. But never would I credit the hurtful person with any part of that, there is only ignorance in hurtful behavior and only ignorance, no sanity, crediting it otherwise. I think it's a sadist who warms with any delight to such notions of "a rude awakening". What I think is so often overlooked in so much minced thought is that pain or confusions that needs healing arise even more productively, and much less painfully, in gentle, kind, open conditions interpersonally, and wherever in the world people would realize the value of honoring other human beings' essential autonomy.
"I don't disagree with most of what you describe there"
oh oh, double negatives...and during a mercury retrograde too! Had it to re-read that sentance a couple of times!
"an openness to notions like hurtful people as unfortunate angels who bring enlightenment through the pain"
lol no, I'm not saying that at all
"at the expense of the true nature of the fact of violence coming to light"
This is the kind of thing that worries me, the association of 'violence' with emotional pain.
"I think it's a sadist who warms with any delight to such notions of "a rude awakening""
If the person in question gets off on knowing they have caused someone pain, then yes. But by large it is just egotistical ignorance and not sadism. There is the "I'm so superior" feeling which is always illusory, but this isn't sadism, merely ignorance and egotism.
I don't know how to deal with people who lie, I've never known how. Underneath everything I have the same regard for all people. So it just really hurts when a person lies in some ways.
"oh oh, double negatives...and during a mercury retrograde too! Had it to re-read that sentance a couple of times!"
"This is the kind of thing that worries me, the association of 'violence' with emotional pain."
I think you might disagree with it entirely if I am reading you correctly, but here is a website that addresses verbal abuse, which of course would be psychological or emotional violence www.verbalabuse.com/
People who can speak from the experience of having been both physically beaten and severely verbally or psychologically abused say that verbal abuse is far more damaging.
I would agree that people are responsible for their own emotional well-being, but likewise being responsible for our own physical well-being never kept anyone who has hit from having been hit.
"If the person in question gets off on knowing they have caused someone pain, then yes."
Yes, that is what I meant there.
"But by large it is just egotistical ignorance and not sadism. There is the "I'm so superior" feeling which is always illusory, but this isn't sadism, merely ignorance and egotism."
I agree, but not without adding ignorance is the root of all violence.
"I think you might disagree with it entirely if I am reading you correctly, but here is a website that addresses verbal abuse, which of course would be psychological or emotional violence www.verbalabuse.com/ "
Certainly name calling and shouting at people or trying to degrade someone's self esteem verbally, such as by bullying or taunting someone, might be considered verbal violence but I would not associate run-of-the-mill lying is equatable with 'violence' in a general sense. I wouldn't even include the person who seems to be incapable of NOT lying as being necessariliy violent. They may be violent AS WELL, but I don't think that it is a resultant of lying as a rule.
"I would agree that people are responsible for their own emotional well-being, but likewise being responsible for our own physical well-being never kept anyone who has hit from having been hit. "
Ah, but again the analogy of physical and verbal break down here. One cannot help it if a bone is broken, but one CAN help how they respond to a lie. Consider the buddhist notion of unattachment, it realistically sums up what I am suggesting here. There is a difference between not being 'attached' to something and being dissociative. If a person has no emotional hold over you, then their words will be inconsequential. Because of this, we have some sense of control over how we respond to these things, unlike with physical pain or blows.
"Yes, that is what I meant there. "
Then I think its important to keep this in mind, the differences between someone who is a liar, and someone who lies solely for the purpose of causing other people deliberate stress or pain. I think the latter is quite rare, but the former quite common.
This post seems pretty old, but I thought I'd add my comments. I think mercury square or semi-square neptune generally strenghtens the tendencies of someone to become a liar. I know a young female that has neptune on her ascendant squaring her mercury that is conjunct her sun and her venus and is in opposition to her moon. Therefore she has four of her inner planets in square to neptune and hell, she's a deliberate liar... While she was my friend I had a very hard time believing just about anything that she said. Since there was really nothing that I could believe her it seemed that I would only be paranoid, so I ended up forcing myself to trust her. Only to find out after a year that I was mostly right with my perceptions and that she's a shameless manipulator... This is as for neptune square mercury and any other inner planets...
As for gemini sun people: I have had all sorts of encounters in my life with this sun placement and I can tell that while they don't mean harm, gemini people generally have no problem lying when this is what they think is best. These would be rather minor lies most of the time, but all I'm saying is that it comes natural to these people to take the easy way out by saying something that is not necessarily true. However, if you happen to experience a real bad case of manipulation then I would think you'd need to check the aspects in the person's horoscope more closely. Also if the sun is in the 12th house and is afflicted it can have a similar affects to that when receiving aspects from neptune. Sun square uranus and pluto in itself doesn't talk about lie at all, according to my understanding, although the latter one can talk about tendencies for manipulation.
I hope this helps.
So bored that I'm thinking, why would anyone believe in anyone else's interpretation of Astrology? UNLESS:
(1) You are either old enough to experience if for yourself. or,
(2) you're trying to figure out other people in the hopes that you will 'skip steps.' Highly unlikely ;-) (but Gemini is expert at this).
(3) you're too weak to walk away from the 'liars,' or whatever else insults you in life...(and continue to blame them for your feelings ;-)
Astrology is great, you just have to be 'mature' enough to handle it ;-)
One could possibly see the mutable signs as the potential liars in the Zodiac. That is Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces. These signs can bend to reflect others opinions as they are less fixed in their outlook. If they lack a strong sense of self identity they may change the truth to such an extent that they are no longer honest, so as to be accepted by others. Ultimately though any of the Zodiac signs can produce a liar as it depends upon the nature of the soul.
"These would be rather minor lies most of the time, but all I'm saying is that it comes natural to these people to take the easy way out by saying something that is not necessarily true."
I agree with this about Gemini and telling minor lies, as well as Neptune possibly factoring into larger manipulation (either with a person with a Neptune aspect being easily manipulated and/or doing manipulating, potentially). I also agree that the mutables (Sagittarius a bit less and Virgo less much, much so than Gemini and Pisces, though, from my own experience) can sometimes tend towards bending the truth.
I think Gemini (and also Pisces) often don't really see themselves as bending the truth or lying, especially in the moment that they are saying something that's maybe not 100% true. I have Gemini Rising (plus a Neptune-Mercury square) and I was talking to a Pisces Sun/Moon friend about this recently, and it seems like we felt very similarly about it. We'll sometimes say things that feel right to say, in the moment, but, if we think about it later, we might realize it wasn't completely true. There's also an ability (these signs both deal with duality, after all) to see many sides of issues, so sometimes Gemini or Pisces might try on a statement to entertain another perspective on something, even if that might not be what they, ultimately, believe. Additionally, Gemini (and I think Pisces often, as well) tends to see that there are many truths and these truths don't necessarily cancel each other out. Truth can seem like a malleable or very complex issue to Gemini. It can sometimes rationalize things very well, because of this. And sometimes it's just trying to find what the truth is of that moment. But Sagittarius is more concerned with Ultimate Truths (and beliefs).
Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts and experiences with Gemini and the idea of truth (and lying). I do think that Gemini lies are often not intended as large or harmful. They're almost exercises in communication or trying to understand other perspectives. However, sometimes, Gemini might be playing slippery games and moving around what it knows to be true purposefully, just because it 's easy enough to do. So... who knows.
"One could possibly see the mutable signs as the potential liars in the Zodiac."
One could. And one could see other BS as well. Lying arises from a lack of moral structure; one of those things which cannot be discerned from the use of Astrology. "Ultimately though any of the Zodiac signs can produce a liar as it depends upon the nature of the soul." pulls that iron out of the fire.
"There's also an ability (these signs both deal with duality, after all) to see many sides of issues, so sometimes Gemini or Pisces might try on a statement to entertain another perspective on something, even if that might not be what they, ultimately, believe."
Exactly. Gemini is the fence-sitter of the Zodiac; generally willing to fling out alternatives to test the waters. Even if not their own. Paul, and I (quite different, both Gemini) often play devil's advocate on tribe. He most always says so, I don't. Probably should.
"Lying arises from a lack of moral structure; one of those things which cannot be discerned from the use of Astrology. "Ultimately though any of the Zodiac signs can produce a liar as it depends upon the nature of the soul." pulls that iron out of the fire."
That's a really good point. I guess astrology just might provide some symbolic insight into the specific manner in which someone might be inclined to stray from the truth (if they are at all), what encounters or experiences might make them most want to do so (Gemini trying out various perspectives... Libra avoiding hurting someone's feelings... etc.), or what specific types of lying/truth-distortion/manipulation/intentional info withholding/etc. might be easiest or most comfortable for that person. But someone tending to lie or not is probably not something that could be determined by astrology (just as telling if someone is a criminal, for example, isn't). I certainly think inclinations or motivations or needs that tie into the subject have symbolic links in a chart, but it's good to keep in mind that actual definitive manifestation/'diagnosis' isn't.
Well there's lying and lying isn't there?
There are white lies 'I love your dress' when you think it looks awful or 'we must meet up some time' when you have no intention of doing so. I think the latter is potentially more hurtful if it raises hopes of pleasant cosy chats over a coffee - or for that matter, a date.
Maybe the latter is a little more mercurial, but the first kind Venus. But perhaps both have a social role to play in maintaining peace and good feelings between people, regardless of what is really felt.
Lies to deliberatley deceive are another matter. If it is for personal gain, then surely it would be important to look for a more 'selfish' dimension to the chart, so maybe then it would be time to look to Mars, Saturn, Pluto energies.